List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[FreoRicci]

Bell's smug attitude treating it like an honour to play for fremantle instead of working with player managers to agree on a fair price. We threw 750k for 4 years at Cerra to try and convince him to stay. But the next year we refuse to budge on 180k a year for Acres who proved instrumental in several games, and only upped Logue's offer after North already presented him with the godfather offer. All whilst selling the farm for an unkown at 900k a year. Gotta be great for the playing group.

He needs to go first and foremost.

The treatment of Acres was pathetic. It was trying to be smart but looked arrogant. Small pay for an essential 15-20th player. Those are important.

Meek at this point in time is a better ruck and can mark up forward. Jackson has shown none of this, and Bell wants a flag for 3 years. Jackson won’t be that player. Maybe in 5-8 years. Absolute stuff up. Ruins the draft hand. All pressure is on Jackson.

 

[Superkoops]

Oh yeah ?

How many did Corbett kick last year out of interest

What about the 7 against WA , wasn’t against our red headed skin cancer poster boy was it ?

That would add an extra layer of lols

Yes about 5 kicked on Hugh Davies. A couple kicked on another bloke who gave away a free kick. Also a dodgy 50 against Hugh that gifted Jefferson one of the 5. I didn’t mind Hugh’s game on Fri for Peel. But his game against Jefferson wasn’t one of his better efforts.

 

[Superkoops]

The treatment of Acres was pathetic. It was trying to be smart but looked arrogant. Small pay for an essential 15-20th player. Those are important.

Meek at this point in time is a better ruck and can mark up forward. Jackson has shown none of this, and Bell wants a flag for 3 years. Jackson won’t be that player. Maybe in 5-8 years. Absolute stuff up. Ruins the draft hand. All pressure is on Jackson.

Agree re: Blacres. I feel we needed to do more to retain him. Logue and Blacres were the two that I wanted to keep. Lobb, Meek and Tucker no issue. We should have been able to keep at least one of Logue or Acres. Not having Acres on the wing and replacing with Hughes/Henry at the moment is hurting the club.

Disagree re: Meek. Guy struggles to take marks. Took two uncontested marks today and zero contested marks for the whole year. Also averaging only 2.8% hit outs to advantage. Meek needed league game time and it was a goodwill decision to better his career. If he keeps ramming his knee into oppo rucks he’ll get himself suspended. I really don’t think Meek going is an issue. Very different proposition to Luke Jackson.

Jackson will be a good player and well ahead of Meek forward and ruck at the moment. The concern I have with Jackson trade is the trade cost, esp. if the 2023 draft pick ends up being top 10.

 

[tonygeeks]

Corbett kicked 25 in 12 games, few bags of 5s, 4s, 3s in there and then some with nothing, big split in the quality of sides

Chris Burgess and Corbett were GC key pillars, Burgess scored like 63 goals with some big bags, bloke couldn't get a look in ahead of Casboult/Chol and King was injured

VFL is super tricky to judge


EDIT: as for Jefferson for Metro, yes from highlights it looks like he was directly playing on Davies

Really haha there’s a dockery one for those podcast boys

 

[go_the_dockers]

The Cats have brought a lot of players in.

Drafted the core then topped up.

I was talking about the rebuild.

Once you get 80 to 90 percent of the team, top up

 

[go_the_dockers]

I’m happy to defend Lobb trade. Everyone talks about giving up pick 11 but we only slid back to 14. 19 was handed on via Brisbane from Lachie Neale trade. On point value the trade was a mid to late second. We then got four years and 66 games (16 games per year). In year one he had to take on no. 1 ruck for fair chunk of the first half of the year due to injuries to Darcy/Sandilands.

Trade summary
2018: Picks 11 and 19 to the Giants in exchange for Lobb and picks 14, 43 and 47. Freo then packaged up picks 43, 47 and 55 to send to North Melbourne in exchange for pick 31.

Effectively 11, 19 > Lobb, 14, 31

2019-2022: 66 games (79 goals)

2022: Lobb traded for Pick 30 and F2 (tied to WB). They then traded the F2 (tied to WB) along with Meek for JOM and F4 (tied to Hawks). The F4 was then traded to North Melbourne for pick 43.

Effectively: Lobb, Meek> JOM, 30, 43

To me that is a trade that worked out very reasonably for us.

No one can defend Hogan Trade (Ben King and Sparrow).

Also agree that moderate cost trades like McCarthy, Bennell, Matera, Kersten did not work. Each had a number of issues and really didn’t pass the good and hard-working character test.

Colyer was reasonable. Conca ok. Aish, BHill, Wilson, Clark all good value for about early to mid 2nd round value.

In saying all this - my belief has always been keep early picks and go to the draft. Use second and third round picks for player trades but player trades that bring immediate value.

The Jackson trade now worries me because if we end up bottom 6-8 that pick will be top 8 value for 2023 and that doesn’t fit in with my beliefs. The pick traded in 2022 (and ended up being 15) is fine with me.

We also split pick 5 to get lobb.

He cost us one of Rozee or king

 

[go_the_dockers]

Kersten, Matera and Colyer all cost so little I'd happily defend those trades, they were all essentially free hits, and of the players they were 'blocking' from getting a spot, can't think of any of them then working out elsewhere.

For a known d grader.
Why bring them in.
Our talent identification is shocking

 

[Demons09]

For a known d grader.
Why bring them in.
Our talent identification is shocking

Why aren’t you a list manager?

 

[go_the_dockers]

Why aren’t you a list manager?

Haha

I do love trade week.

Do you think we target the right players?
Do we target them at the right time?

Mihocheck, Fritch, J Rioli, T Kelly all went undrafted.

By trading in known c graders, you miss out on potential a or b graders.

I would rather draft the best player in a 2nd tier comp than trade in players outside of best 22.

 

[Joao]

I’m happy to defend Lobb trade. Everyone talks about giving up pick 11 but we only slid back to 14. 19 was handed on via Brisbane from Lachie Neale trade. On point value the trade was a mid to late second. We then got four years and 66 games (16 games per year). In year one he had to take on no. 1 ruck for fair chunk of the first half of the year due to injuries to Darcy/Sandilands.

Trade summary
2018: Picks 11 and 19 to the Giants in exchange for Lobb and picks 14, 43 and 47. Freo then packaged up picks 43, 47 and 55 to send to North Melbourne in exchange for pick 31.

Effectively 11, 19 > Lobb, 14, 31

2019-2022: 66 games (79 goals)

2022: Lobb traded for Pick 30 and F2 (tied to WB). They then traded the F2 (tied to WB) along with Meek for JOM and F4 (tied to Hawks). The F4 was then traded to North Melbourne for pick 43.

Effectively: Lobb, Meek> JOM, 30, 43

To me that is a trade that worked out very reasonably for us.

No one can defend Hogan Trade (Ben King and Sparrow).

Also agree that moderate cost trades like McCarthy, Bennell, Matera, Kersten did not work. Each had a number of issues and really didn’t pass the good and hard-working character test.

Colyer was reasonable. Conca ok. Aish, BHill, Wilson, Clark all good value for about early to mid 2nd round value.

In saying all this - my belief has always been keep early picks and go to the draft. Use second and third round picks for player trades but player trades that bring immediate value.

The Jackson trade now worries me because if we end up bottom 6-8 that pick will be top 8 value for 2023 and that doesn’t fit in with my beliefs. The pick traded in 2022 (and ended up being 15) is fine with me.

It's not the actual trade cost of Lobb, its the fact we had to split pick 5 in the ****ing superdraft for him. Port no doubt couldn't believe their luck.

We also split pick 5 to get lobb.

He cost us one of Rozee or king

Exactly.


Our ability to find B graders or even better with picks 30+ is really good. What we lack is top end talent because we blew it on Hogan and Lobb. I still think that trade period is the worst piece of list management ever done by anyone (except maybe Gold Coast but top picks aren't worth as much to them). As much as I hate the Jackson trade, at least he is a solid citizen and not afraid of doing the hard stuff. Those other two are so far from the characters/players/injury histories you give up a shot at two top 6 picks in that draft for. It was obvious then and it painfully obvious now. You can search my history (and Taylor as well) to find this isn't hindsight hero stuff either.

 

[Alfonz]

Name one of those top 4 players who would have come to Freo. Stengle we couldn't have taken, not after our recent history with troubled players.
As for Jackson, most "experts" didn't think we paid enough.

It's irrelevant whether they would come to Freo. The relevancy is in the examples of trades where a club has not overpaid to land a big fish. Something Freo seems incapable of, which would lend itself to us not trying to bring in a saviour from trading. It hasn't worked in our entire history, yet we keep repeating the same mistakes.

The media coverage on the Jackson trade was heavily biased by Victorians (as always) and should have been ignored by the club. Anyone who shut out the hysteria and looked at historical trades could see we clearly paid too much for him at the time, even predicting a good 2023.

 

[Taylor]

Drafted the core then topped up.

I was talking about the rebuild.

Once you get 80 to 90 percent of the team, top up

Let's take a look at that... Of the team that played on the weekend

Bews, Hawkins - father sons
Tuohy, Smith, Stengle, Cameron, Rohan, Dangerfield, Stanley, Bowes, Henry - trade/free agents
Close, Zach Guthrie, Atkins, Blicavs, O'Connor - rookies/cat-b rookies
Miers, Stewart, Kolodjasjnij, Ratugolea - players drafted pick #40 or later

The rest?

Holmes - pick 20
Cam Guthrie - pick 23
Duncan - pick 28


Where are the first round picks? They traded them, for almost half a team and topped up with rookies.

 

[AstonSouffle]

End of the day we've bled Lobb, Acres, Logue, Meek, Tucker (three of which are WA players). Then got in Jackson and a packet of chips.

Why do we not have a first-round draft pick next year? Yeah we got in Jackson, but still lost 5 decent players. People are apologetic for them, but drafting is a multi-year exercise, not a reactive process. They should have known the situation of all 5 well in advance and that they didn't, and therefore squeeze what they could is a damning indictment.

End of the day, Fremantle's admin is deplorable and their nepotistic purple circle has caught up with them.

Remember everyone, Cox will leave for Adelaide for high picks as will Serong and Young eventually to Victoria - Brayshaw will stay and be the next Mundy / Pav as is tradition. Maybe just maybe, we can actually create a genuine core of WA talent to rely on. Everyone here clowns on Peter Sumich and yes he's an oaf, but so far... everything he said has more or less come true, and likely the people who didn't want to hear it Bell et. al. froze him out.

 

[freo_leo29]

Haha

I do love trade week.

Do you think we target the right players?
Do we target them at the right time?

Mihocheck, Fritch, J Rioli, T Kelly all went undrafted.

By trading in known c graders, you miss out on potential a or b graders.

I would rather draft the best player in a 2nd tier comp than trade in players outside of best 22.

Thoughts on trading in Brodie and aish then?

We skip them under your rules

 

[blue shark]

Hawks haven't brought anyone in.
Adelaide brought in two players Rankine and Dawson. If we did this, I would be happy.
I could tolerate it if brought in good players, or did not give up much and they were best 22.

Bringing in players who are not best 22 rarely works. Matera, Clark, Colyer, Acres were all not best 22 at there club.

Lobb is the one that annoys the most, paying an average player 700k who never kicked over 30 goals a year was shocking. And giving up picks. I would rather look at WAFL and SANFL players than these players.

With Hogan, it was the wrong year. That was a super draft.

I have no faith in Fremantle picking the right player. If we could identify talent, were more selective with who we picked it would be OK. Our criteria is are they from WA. If yes, then offers 3 years.

If it was pickett, I would be happy to bring him in. He is a top 5 player for us. Fills a need.

It’s not all talent though. Most have the attitude, mental fortitude to improve their new clubs.
That and in positions of need.

It's not the actual trade cost of Lobb, its the fact we had to split pick 5 in the ****ing superdraft for him. Port no doubt couldn't believe their luck.

Exactly.


Our ability to find B graders or even better with picks 30+ is really good. What we lack is top end talent because we blew it on Hogan and Lobb. I still think that trade period is the worst piece of list management ever done by anyone (except maybe Gold Coast but top picks aren't worth as much to them). As much as I hate the Jackson trade, at least he is a solid citizen and not afraid of doing the hard stuff. Those other two are so far from the characters/players/injury histories you give up a shot at two top 6 picks in that draft for. It was obvious then and it painfully obvious now. You can search my history (and Taylor as well) to find this isn't hindsight hero stuff either.

I still think we don’t improve until we fix the off field limitations.
To win flags from WA you have to be top 4.
I’ve seen nothing that says we are pioneering change to a club bereft of
ideas.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Let's take a look at that... Of the team that played on the weekend

Bews, Hawkins - father sons
Tuohy, Smith, Stengle, Cameron, Rohan, Dangerfield, Stanley, Bowes, Henry - trade/free agents
Close, Zach Guthrie, Atkins, Blicavs, O'Connor - rookies/cat-b rookies
Miers, Stewart, Kolodjasjnij, Ratugolea - players drafted pick #40 or later

The rest?

Holmes - pick 20
Cam Guthrie - pick 23
Duncan - pick 28


Where are the first round picks? They traded them, for almost half a team and topped up with rookies.

They drafted the core, then kept topping up.

The core for them was Ablett, Selwood, Bartel, Johnson and co.

They have just been topping up for 10 years

 

[go_the_dockers]

Thoughts on trading in Brodie and aish then?

We skip them under your rules

I think we over paid for Aish, but he was a player that the coach wanted and he saw a need for him.

I think this is an example of identify a talented player in a clubs best 22 and bringing him in. I don't mind it.


Brodie was a salary dump. We improved our draft picks, but not near as much as Geelong did. Probably got unders for him

 

[Taylor]

They drafted the core, then kept topping up.

The core for them was Ablett, Selwood, Bartel, Johnson and co.

They have just been topping up for 10 years

How do those names differ from Brayshaw, Serong, Young, Cox, Darcy and co?

We didn't get the Ablett, Hawkins, Scarlett in the pick 40s as father sons to help... allowing us to pick the other guys with the higher picks... so maybe THAT was the reason the entire time?

 

[Swiggy]

End of the day we've bled Lobb, Acres, Logue, Meek, Tucker (three of which are WA players). Then got in Jackson and a packet of chips.

Why do we not have a first-round draft pick next year? Yeah we got in Jackson, but still lost 5 decent players. People are apologetic for them, but drafting is a multi-year exercise, not a reactive process. They should have known the situation of all 5 well in advance and that they didn't, and therefore squeeze what they could is a damning indictment.

End of the day, Fremantle's admin is deplorable and their nepotistic purple circle has caught up with them.

Remember everyone, Cox will leave for Adelaide for high picks as will Serong and Young eventually to Victoria - Brayshaw will stay and be the next Mundy / Pav as is tradition. Maybe just maybe, we can actually create a genuine core of WA talent to rely on. Everyone here clowns on Peter Sumich and yes he's an oaf, but so far... everything he said has more or less come true, and likely the people who didn't want to hear it Bell et. al. froze him out.

Cox isnt a done deal to leave, loves Perth and his GF is from WA.

As for young & serong both signed new deals last year, can’t see them leaving anytime soon.

 

[Superkoops]

It's not the actual trade cost of Lobb, its the fact we had to split pick 5 in the ****ing superdraft for him. Port no doubt couldn't believe their luck.

Exactly.


Our ability to find B graders or even better with picks 30+ is really good. What we lack is top end talent because we blew it on Hogan and Lobb. I still think that trade period is the worst piece of list management ever done by anyone (except maybe Gold Coast but top picks aren't worth as much to them). As much as I hate the Jackson trade, at least he is a solid citizen and not afraid of doing the hard stuff. Those other two are so far from the characters/players/injury histories you give up a shot at two top 6 picks in that draft for. It was obvious then and it painfully obvious now. You can search my history (and Taylor as well) to find this isn't hindsight hero stuff either.

I agree splitting the early pick was bad idea and unnecessary. It was actually pick 6 not 5.

Pick 6 and F3 > 11, 23, 30, 49

My concerns

• we didn’t need both Lobb and Hogan. Lobb wanted to play forward.
• Brisbane were told we needed a top 10 pick and late first for Neale. We got that as part of the Neale trade(pick 19).
• we should have used that pick 19 as the centrepiece for Lobb.
• then held pick 5 (which Brisbane would have kept) and our own pick 6. Or alternatively Port Brisbane do some deals so that we end up with two to 10 picks regardless.

So yes the 2018 trade period was a monumental stuff up. We could have traded in Lobb and still had two top 10 picks. Compare that to 2021 where we had 6,8 and start of second round. Consider Lobb (traded in 2018) and Jordan Clark (traded in 2021) about similar value and we could have managed that period a heck of a lot better. I’m not defending the trade period I’m defending the Lobb trade in terms of end value agreed between the two clubs.

 

[Alfonz]

I think we over paid for Aish, but he was a player that the coach wanted and he saw a need for him.

I think this is an example of identify a talented player in a clubs best 22 and bringing him in. I don't mind it.


Brodie was a salary dump. We improved our draft picks, but not near as much as Geelong did. Probably got unders for him

Aish was also a salary dump and I think we could have got him for less. Although it has been a decent trade as he has been a reasonable player. The problem is he might be another one of those Wilson type trades where ultimately he comes and goes before we actually get to the summit. We have somewhat botched the rebuild by not addressing the forward line before giving away all our decent draft capital, and Aish could be past it if we are ever going to be contending. The pick could have been used on Carroll or McCreery, or we might have picked a dud. Also need to consider the salary of Aish (much higher than anyone we would have drafted) could also have impacted our ability to keep other players.

On a tangent, but considering the age of our players, then the decision not to extend Logue's contract when he asked for it earlier in the season is mind boggling. Like Aish, Pearce is almost 28. With the age of Amiss (basically we can't be winning a flag unless he is a bona fide star), sensible people would have had our window opening in maybe 3 years time when Pearce is in his 30's. May has delivered at this age for Melbourne, but there is still a big question mark over Pearce considering his injury history, and the club should have been planning a premiership tilt around Cox and Logue as the defensive pillars.

 

[freo1997]

We have to trade Darcy for team balance and helps the fwd line as we don’t need to try fit Jackson in there.

 

[poshman]

I agree splitting the early pick was bad idea and unnecessary. It was actually pick 6 not 5.

Pick 6 and F3 > 11, 23, 30, 49

My concerns

• we didn’t need both Lobb and Hogan. Lobb wanted to play forward.
• Brisbane were told we needed a top 10 pick and late first for Neale. We got that as part of the Neale trade(pick 19).
• we should have used that pick 19 as the centrepiece for Lobb.
• then held pick 5 (which Brisbane would have kept) and our own pick 6. Or alternatively Port Brisbane do some deals so that we end up with two to 10 picks regardless.

So yes the 2018 trade period was a monumental stuff up. We could have traded in Lobb and still had two top 10 picks. Compare that to 2021 where we had 6,8 and start of second round. Consider Lobb (traded in 2018) and Jordan Clark (traded in 2021) about similar value and we could have managed that period a heck of a lot better. I’m not defending the trade period I’m defending the Lobb trade.

Massive, giant loss for the team that draft period. Agree on the Lobb deal. We could have got just him and left Hogan for the year later as he would have been out of contract.

We should be able to move beyond it, but, if we finish the year in a similar position to where we are atm then the Jackson deal looks bad. If we finish 9th-12th it is fine. I still think we will find a way to have a rubbish year and finish around the 11th - 12th mark. Which was in the range I predicted we would finish prior to the season.

 

[gungho]

It's not the actual trade cost of Lobb, its the fact we had to split pick 5 in the ****ing superdraft for him. Port no doubt couldn't believe their luck.

Exactly.


Our ability to find B graders or even better with picks 30+ is really good. What we lack is top end talent because we blew it on Hogan and Lobb. I still think that trade period is the worst piece of list management ever done by anyone (except maybe Gold Coast but top picks aren't worth as much to them). As much as I hate the Jackson trade, at least he is a solid citizen and not afraid of doing the hard stuff. Those other two are so far from the characters/players/injury histories you give up a shot at two top 6 picks in that draft for. It was obvious then and it painfully obvious now. You can search my history (and Taylor as well) to find this isn't hindsight hero stuff either.

Probably the thing that is more disappointing than anything is losing pick 6 in that draft. It would have got us one of the Kings. (More than likely Max).

 

[freo1997]

We have to trade Darcy for team balance and helps the fwd line as we don’t need to try fit Jackson in there.

Darcy would get us a first rounder.

Jackson becomes the Ruckman.