List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[Swiggy]

This is a list management issue, so I'm posting here instead of the vent thread. (It was a close call though....)

The additions of Corbett and Wagner (and Emmett and Reidy to a lesser extent) are poor. As experienced mature players, I expected Corbett to play most games and Wagner to slot into the best 22. That was his selling point - that he was too good for VFL. But it appears their previous clubs were correct in moving them on because they're just not up to it. Emmett and Reidy are younger, but they're not teenagers either so I expected them to have some sort of impact. If Reidy couldn't get a game when Darcy was injured then I don't think he never will.

Think you’ll find Reidy was coming back from injury when Darcy was injured. To hard the throw him in

 

[mullp64]

What could we get for Luke Ryan? Seriously his ball use is beyond pathetic.

I’d except a late second rounder just to get rid of him tbh.

Has been a great pick up at 66 great footy brain ,always gives 100 percent and elite in most areas

 

[Redgum]

MIDFIELD: Our best midfield in the last 10 years has been Fyfe (2 brownlows )Mundy and Neale ( 1 Brownlow) as a combination.
I am afraid to say that Brayshaw, Serong and recently O'Meara are not in the same league. There are many better midfield combinations
currently in most of the teams that win the clearances over us particularly in the centre even though we have probably as good set of ruckmen
then all of the teams. Currently it is our midfield that has got us in this position, they are not as good as we think they are, not sure what
happened last year, they have obviously regressed or the other midfielders have got better and they haven't improved.
It is obvious that their undersize height has been a disadvantage and we badly need some tall midfielders.
Hopefully Johnson & Erasmus will get their but whether they will be in the same class as Mundy & Fyfe, I can't see it yet. I remember skinny Fyfe, at their age pulling in screamers and the evidence was there early ,that we got a beauty. Mundy was a slow burn but he is Rolls Royce Pendlebury Skill Level.

So until our midfield really lift their game we are going to keep losing , they need reinforcement and O'Meara isn't the answer, he's no Mundy.
He was the reason we were better last year ,he was in there with them, we really miss him, I think even now if he would come out of retirement ,he would make a huge difference. Like others have already said ,put Young in the midfield , he has all the tools and put Chapman in his spot in the backline.

 

[s_wd6]

MIDFIELD: Our best midfield in the last 10 years has been Fyfe (2 brownlows )Mundy and Neale ( 1 Brownlow) as a combination.
I am afraid to say that Brayshaw, Serong and recently O'Meara are not in the same league. There are many better midfield combinations
currently in most of the teams that win the clearances over us particularly in the centre even though we have probably as good set of ruckmen
then all of the teams. Currently it is our midfield that has got us in this position, they are not as good as we think they are, not sure what
happened last year, they have obviously regressed or the other midfielders have got better and they haven't improved.
It is obvious that their undersize height has been a disadvantage and we badly need some tall midfielders.
Hopefully Johnson & Erasmus will get their but whether they will be in the same class as Mundy & Fyfe, I can't see it yet. I remember skinny Fyfe, at their age pulling in screamers and the evidence was there early ,that we got a beauty. Mundy was a slow burn but he is Rolls Royce Pendlebury Skill Level.

So until our midfield really lift their game we are going to keep losing , they need reinforcement and O'Meara isn't the answer, he's no Mundy.
He was the reason we were better last year ,he was in there with them, we really miss him, I think even now if he would come out of retirement ,he would make a huge difference. Like others have already said ,put Young in the midfield , he has all the tools and put Chapman in his spot in the backline.

Of the teams we've beaten too, none of them had very strong midfields either.

 

[Footskill]

MIDFIELD: Our best midfield in the last 10 years has been Fyfe (2 brownlows )Mundy and Neale ( 1 Brownlow) as a combination.
I am afraid to say that Brayshaw, Serong and recently O'Meara are not in the same league. There are many better midfield combinations
currently in most of the teams that win the clearances over us particularly in the centre even though we have probably as good set of ruckmen
then all of the teams. Currently it is our midfield that has got us in this position, they are not as good as we think they are, not sure what
happened last year, they have obviously regressed or the other midfielders have got better and they haven't improved.
It is obvious that their undersize height has been a disadvantage and we badly need some tall midfielders.
Hopefully Johnson & Erasmus will get their but whether they will be in the same class as Mundy & Fyfe, I can't see it yet. I remember skinny Fyfe, at their age pulling in screamers and the evidence was there early ,that we got a beauty. Mundy was a slow burn but he is Rolls Royce Pendlebury Skill Level.

So until our midfield really lift their game we are going to keep losing , they need reinforcement and O'Meara isn't the answer, he's no Mundy.
He was the reason we were better last year ,he was in there with them, we really miss him, I think even now if he would come out of retirement ,he would make a huge difference. Like others have already said ,put Young in the midfield , he has all the tools and put Chapman in his spot in the backline.

For those calling for Young as a mid..what attributes does he hold to make you think he would excel in that role. Thinking wing be better for him, but not sure his tank would hold up

From what I seen, doesn't seem to be the best extractor of the football in a big pack...and not the best at getting rid of the ball when tackled.

 

[Docker82]

Has been a great pick up at 66 great footy brain ,always gives 100 percent and elite in most areas

Apart from intercept marking what is he good at?

The rest of his game is a liability and it's losing us games. He's useless.

 

[Andy Brennan]

MIDFIELD: Our best midfield in the last 10 years has been Fyfe (2 brownlows )Mundy and Neale ( 1 Brownlow) as a combination.
I am afraid to say that Brayshaw, Serong and recently O'Meara are not in the same league. There are many better midfield combinations
currently in most of the teams that win the clearances over us particularly in the centre even though we have probably as good set of ruckmen
then all of the teams. Currently it is our midfield that has got us in this position, they are not as good as we think they are, not sure what
happened last year, they have obviously regressed or the other midfielders have got better and they haven't improved.
It is obvious that their undersize height has been a disadvantage and we badly need some tall midfielders.
Hopefully Johnson & Erasmus will get their but whether they will be in the same class as Mundy & Fyfe, I can't see it yet. I remember skinny Fyfe, at their age pulling in screamers and the evidence was there early ,that we got a beauty. Mundy was a slow burn but he is Rolls Royce Pendlebury Skill Level.

So until our midfield really lift their game we are going to keep losing , they need reinforcement and O'Meara isn't the answer, he's no Mundy.
He was the reason we were better last year ,he was in there with them, we really miss him, I think even now if he would come out of retirement ,he would make a huge difference. Like others have already said ,put Young in the midfield , he has all the tools and put Chapman in his spot in the backline.

I wonder how we'd be doing if we still had carr

 

[Footskill]

I wonder how we'd be doing if we still had carr

Dunno if carr is the factor..I think we over estimated how good our mids are. Against the top shelf midfield teams they are found wanting. Against lower teams they look better

 

[RazzleDazzler]

I was at the game and there was a short option initially almost every single one of those long bombs. He takes sooooooo ****ing long I could almost leave my seat go get a beer and he’d still have the ball in his hands. He’s a great mark, otherwise a truly pathetic footballer.

We’ve got to stop making excuses for him and realise it’s a massive problem he needs to fix. If he can’t fix he can **** off quite frankly. I’m sick of him. Most overrated Freo player ever and it’s not even a contest.

Haha Tell us how you really feel! Woweee!!

 

[Docker82]

Haha Tell us how you really feel! Woweee!!

I've calmed down a bit since yesterday evening... I stand by that post 100% though.

 

[wakojako]

The forwardline was not the issue on the weekend but we really need some to get some forwards in to create competition for spots. Switta and Schultz could use some pressure to keep their spot. Who the **** misses a set shot 20m in front. Brockman would be b22 and really add a spark to our forwardline. I hope we are seriously considering him because I think it's a similar trade to Clark.

 

[s_wd6]

The forwardline was not the issue on the weekend but we really need some to get some forwards in to create competition for spots. Switta and Schultz could use some pressure to keep their spot. Who the * misses a set shot 20m in front. Brockman would be b22 and really add a spark to our forwardline. I hope we are seriously considering him because I think it's a similar trade to Clark.

There is still way too much arrogance around our list and match comittee. I still think we have 90% of the list required for a flag, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't continously try and improve. We overrate our own players hugely. Collingwood finished last year very strongly, missed out on a gf by a point, and even then dropped guys like Ginni (who kicked 40 goals in his second year) for someone more dynamic in Hill. Topped up cheaply with Mitchell too.

There's no pressure for spots in our team, except for the fringe guys like Banfield, Sturt, or NOD. With a healthy list competition should be stronger than ever, but instead we refuse to reward WAFL form, but love to accept mediocrity from guys just because they were good last year.

There's zero chance we're winning next week, so may as well reward guys who have been performing consistently in the 2s.

 

[Docker82]

Dunno if carr is the factor..I think we over estimated how good our mids are. Against the top shelf midfield teams they are found wanting. Against lower teams they look better

Midfield was a problem at times last year as well and was the whole time Josh Carr was at the club.

Tbh I thought Mundy was cooked and a bit of a defensive liability by the end. Defensively when we lose the first possession we haven’t improved but now we never win clearance either. No doubt a semi-cooked Mundy is a loss.

2022 Brodie is obviously another big loss but wasn’t exactly great defensively either.

 

[Footskill]

Midfield was a problem at times last year as well and was the whole time Josh Carr was at the club.

Tbh I thought Mundy was cooked and a bit of a defensive liability by the end. Defensively when we lose the first possession we haven’t improved but now we never win clearance either. No doubt a semi-cooked Mundy is a loss.

2022 Brodie is obviously another big loss but wasn’t exactly great defensively either.

True. If I recall it was mainly 3rd quarters last year, the mids kept getting smashed. Somehow they managed to claw it back in the 4th. As said, could of been Mundy's influence that stemmed bit of bleeding.

 

[Polo342]

Apart from intercept marking what is he good at?

The rest of his game is a liability and it's losing us games. He's useless.

Didnt he go at like 88 odd percent disposal efficiency yesterday?

 

[s_wd6]

Didnt he go at like 88 odd percent disposal efficiency yesterday?

Everyone knows that's the most useless stat. By that metric he had 31 effective disposals. Yet he also had 10 turnovers. Which means 6 of his effective disposals were turnovers. Doesn't sound very effective to me.

 

[BringBackTheAnchor]

Didnt he go at like 88 odd percent disposal efficiency yesterday?

Disposal efficiency is such a deceptive stat. Pretty sure a disposal is only ‘inefficient’ if directly intercepted.

 

[Docker82]

Everyone knows that's the most useless stat. By that metric he had 31 effective disposals. Yet he also had 10 turnovers. Which means 6 of his effective disposals were turnovers. Doesn't sound very effective to me.

Anything over 40 metres is considered an efficient disposal.

He’s got the perfect game to have high disposal efficiency. Does nothing but bomb it 50m+ to packs. ****ing useful that is…

People need to stop looking at stats and use their eyes. He’s ****ing pathetic and scared to make a mistake. I’d rather see him make mistakes like Young and Clark do occasionally because they actually try to hit even slightly risky kicks. If it’s the coaches telling him to do that’s equally as pathetic because he’s not bad kick naturally - he’s just the slowest decision maker ever.

Unless the opposition’s pressure is garbage I’d actually rather have a player have between 70-85% disposal efficiency than anything higher tbh.

 

[Polo342]

Everyone knows that's the most useless stat. By that metric he had 31 effective disposals. Yet he also had 10 turnovers. Which means 6 of his effective disposals were turnovers. Doesn't sound very effective to me.

I dunno I just dont think he has been bad at all. You'd like to hope that when he just boots it forward that we can at least half the contest there. Games like Sunday we obviously didnt

 

[AstonSouffle]

This is a list management issue, so I'm posting here instead of the vent thread. (It was a close call though....)

The additions of Corbett and Wagner (and Emmett and Reidy to a lesser extent) are poor. As experienced mature players, I expected Corbett to play most games and Wagner to slot into the best 22. That was his selling point - that he was too good for VFL. But it appears their previous clubs were correct in moving them on because they're just not up to it. Emmett and Reidy are younger, but they're not teenagers either so I expected them to have some sort of impact. If Reidy couldn't get a game when Darcy was injured then I don't think he never will.

Have also wondered for awhile now if getting out of Peel live and dies on fulfilling a redundant loser gameplan, and perhaps players are getting unfairly stuck there coupled with the coaches playing favourites..

 

[Dockeroo]

To be fair to Dockeroo, he's been on this "list needs a lot of work" thing for a while (ie not reactionary), I just completely disagree.

Not quite the right thread but I'll try to tie it together on what I think all issues are:
1) Teams with young spearheads do not go far, ever
2) We constantly lose players setting back the "rebuild" every time. You lose games experience and lose games playing together, these matter
3) The current coaching staff and leadership appear to have a fundamental issue in getting the team "ready for the contest." While Ras has his deficiencies, the kid is as good at the ground ball as anyone and even he seems to have regressed a bit here. The midfield unit as a whole is just broken at the moment despite the talent in there.
4) The rebound game is beyond atrocious and I have no idea how it got this bad. We can not win a game if we dont dominate the midfield because we can not rebound the ball. What's all the more complexing is we should have the makings of an absolutely elite rebounding backline. Young is a genuine top 10 HBF, Clark is a first round pick who has shown plenty and Cox is as good a rebounding KPD as you can feasibly hope for. Hell, despite a couple on here putting Ryan in the sin bin, he's shown enough over the years to know he CAN transition the ball, he just cant at the moment. This is 100% a coaching and game plan issue.

I refuse to believe a midfield core of Brayshaw, Serong, Jackson (50/50 mid/ruck), Johnson and Darcy isnt good enough with support from Erasmus, Brodie and a kid or two we draft / pick-up over the next few years. Hell, even Henry has shown enough that no one is auto dropping him in the change threads any more.

The forwardline needs another A-grade talent to support Amiss, a b-grade genuine creative talent in Brockman wouldnt go astray either. I'll be ******* pissed if we arent chasing Brockman and he goes to WC.

This is a good post and I’m a bit calmer today but I just want to respond to a few things.

• I don’t think the list is a ‘bust’. The 2011-15 list wasn’t a bust either. But you know what? They didn’t win a flag because they were not good enough.
• in the last 20 years the following clubs have won flags

Port
Sydney
West coast
Geelong
Hawks
Collingwood
Richmond
Dogs
Dees

I would argue that between now and 2042, just 9 more teams will win flags out of 18/19 clubs. A majority of teams will go flagless during that time.
So much has to go right for Fremantle to make that list. Our margin for error is much smaller than Rich Melbourne clubs with large inherent advantages.
Therefore, an ok list build for freo - won’t do it.
A fairly good list build for freo - won’t do it.
It needs to be EXCEPTIONAL, to compensate for our non existence in the top end free agent market. Even then, there is no guarantee of a flag. The coaching is a separate but very valid question.
I think our list build is fairly good. It’s not exceptional though. That’s where we will fall short if we don’t continue to be ruthless and do continuous surgery.
We should be very careful not to get too warm and fuzzy about what we saw last year. Yes it was good and I’d have faith in the likes of Brayshaw in particular to bounce back next year onwards and win AAs again.
Our forwards are simply not good enough to win the flag however, as they currently sit. Im blue in the face stating that Switta, Schultz and Frederick will Never play in a flag winning side together. Worse still, Walters, the only small with consistent genuine class, is nearly finished. By 2026, we need two new small forwards, one to replace Walters and the other to push our one of the other 3, who are probably genuine afl players but at bottom 6, rebuilding clubs, out of the team. These two players need to be BETTER than any of Schultz, Switta and Frederick.
Trade and draft are out only 2 avenues to get these 2 players. Not to mention the midfield… which I really did rate at the start of the year but I’m having major doubts now. So much depends on MJ becoming a multiple AA level mid and it’s almost unfair on the kid.
We have signed so many fringe players on deals that are too long, and our draft options are therefore significantly reduced.
I want the club to have a ruthless mindset with these guys and it just seems to be not happening.
I have massive faith in Wallsy to bring in good value talent but let the guy get to work!! At least 4 live picks in the ND this year plus a money ball trade or two.
It would be handy if someone, anyone from last years draft became a B22 player as it would take pressure off the list holes in 2025 onwards if you could plug in Davies or Draper for example for the next decade as a first team player.
I’m not a big critic, I just want the club to succeed and being 7/10 on list management is not bad, but not good enough. We have to strive for excellence in this area. Otherwise we won’t be one of the 9 clubs that wins a flag in the next 20 years. Remember that every single team thinks they are going to win one in the next 20 years but most will fail.

 

[blue shark]

I dunno I just dont think he has been bad at all. You'd like to hope that when he just boots it forward that we can at least half the contest there. Games like Sunday we obviously didnt

The issue is line breakers, and the run off half back is non existent. The play on
straight away after a point, the same.
Let’s face it the man on the mark rule lets you have the advantage of numbers.
We stop start, 15-20m kick sideways or bomb to a contest is not how the game
is heading.
With Clark, Young, even Walker, Aish how do we fail to play fast ball?
Maybe missing Chapman more than expected.
Players who need to know their capabilities Ryan, Pearce, Hughes.
If these guys are your playmakers, breaking zones the ball may as well be a
Boomerang.

 

[wakojako]

Rumour from Reddit regarding Darcy:

"Take this as a grain of salt, a chick at work until recently was ‘hanging out’ with Darcy. She said when they talked about him staying in Perth she wasn’t confident based on their convos. Apparently he has a bunch of mates at the Western Bulldogs, and has ties to Geelong being from there and has toured the facilities recently. Apparently he is a big family man too and she said he misses his family heaps. He did buy a house here but she said he has renovations happening and he is pushing for them to be completed before September. I’ve already made peace with the fact he is leaving."

 

[heypenny]

Rumour from Reddit regarding Darcy:

"Take this as a grain of salt, a chick at work until recently was ‘hanging out’ with Darcy. She said when they talked about him staying in Perth she wasn’t confident based on their convos. Apparently he has a bunch of mates at the Western Bulldogs, and has ties to Geelong being from there and has toured the facilities recently. Apparently he is a big family man too and she said he misses his family heaps. He did buy a house here but she said he has renovations happening and he is pushing for them to be completed before September. I’ve already made peace with the fact he is leaving."

If true (and a big if), I'd prefer if Darcy picked the Bulldogs. I wouldn't be able to handle another trade with Geelong. I suspect the Bulldogs would be interested if English went to the Eagles. We get Naughton or whatever pick they get for English (with later picks exchanged to sweeten everything out).

 

[Dockeroo]

Rumour from Reddit regarding Darcy:

"Take this as a grain of salt, a chick at work until recently was ‘hanging out’ with Darcy. She said when they talked about him staying in Perth she wasn’t confident based on their convos. Apparently he has a bunch of mates at the Western Bulldogs, and has ties to Geelong being from there and has toured the facilities recently. Apparently he is a big family man too and she said he misses his family heaps. He did buy a house here but she said he has renovations happening and he is pushing for them to be completed before September. I’ve already made peace with the fact he is leaving."

Sounds like bullshit to me. If he leaves, so be it. It would be disappointing but not insurmountable to recover