List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[BRADLESTICKS]

Also with handing out all these extra long term deals for example what stops dekonings manager from saying you gave player x 7 years I want a 7 years for Tom even though he hasn’t proven himself yet where does the line get drawn?

 

[HarryFlashman]

Just to be clear I believe both Charlie and Harry 2 of the best 5 key forwards in the comp they have both earned long term contracts but 7/8 years is a long long time in football 5 years is more than enough unless your name is Sam Walsh for mine.

With Williams I believe we had a desperate ceo at the time who offered a silly contract I don’t believe Austin is responsible for that contract in any way.

On Hewitt I think he is a solid Afl midfielder in the right situation but with Cripps who is a star and going nowhere, Cerra who is slow but a better player than Hewitt and being forced to spend sometime at halfback because he is more versatile than others, Ed who is fitter and a better shutdown player and Kennedy who is also slow and doesn’t transition well the mix in the midfield isn’t right.

On Hewitt’s versatility would you honestly be comfortable this week if he spent time at halfback playing on Gresham, butler or Higgins ?

They would actually run circles around him & probably take turns doing it for a laugh before they lead up to the ball

 

[CJMB]

Also with handing out all these extra long term deals for example what stops dekonings manager from saying you gave player x 7 years I want a 7 years for Tom even though he hasn’t proven himself yet where does the line get drawn?

I’m that case the clubs says “easy, we’ve got $2M over 7 years on the table. If you want better then we might have to discuss a shorter deal.”

It’s not like Tom’s manager is going to have the bargaining power to force us to give him a Cripps/AC Charlie/etc deal.

 

[Jeremias]

Just to be clear I believe both Charlie and Harry 2 of the best 5 key forwards in the comp they have both earned long term contracts but 7/8 years is a long long time in football 5 years is more than enough unless your name is Sam Walsh for mine.

No doubt 7/8 years is a long time. A lot can go wrong.

But again, the landscape dictates that these are now very much the norm. So it's nice to think we'll buck the trend as a club, but reality dictates that's not 7/8 is a very long time.

I'd much rather offer the extra year or two or three than risk losing the talent.

With Williams I believe we had a desperate ceo at the time who offered a silly contract I don’t believe Austin is responsible for that contract in any way.

Don't think it has anything to do with the CEO specifically, nor is Austin at fault.

It's the going rate for free agents. Not many move in their prime for short deals or low $ contracts.

On Hewitt I think he is a solid Afl midfielder in the right situation but with Cripps who is a star and going nowhere, Cerra who is slow but a better player than Hewitt and being forced to spend sometime at halfback because he is more versatile than others, Ed who is fitter and a better shutdown player and Kennedy who is also slow and doesn’t transition well the mix in the midfield isn’t right.

The mix currently isn't right. It certainly was for most of last year though and he was a key part of that.

There are easier and far more sensible fixes than moving on Hewett. It wouldn't be a consideration, nor should it be.

On Hewitt’s versatility would you honestly be comfortable this week if he spent time at halfback playing on Gresham, butler or Higgins ?

Not necessarily but that's not his role.

I'd be very comfortable with him on an Owens or a Windhager. But I'd much rather him in the midfield where I believe he's of most value to our side.

 

[BigFrizz36]

The Hopper and Taranto deals are horrible deals and I’m sure Richmond will regret them in the future, how often do these deals work in the club’s favour? Almost never Coniglio, Whitfield, Gaff, J.McGovern, Shiel the list goes on.

If these players truly are loyal signing a 5 year deal then reassessing after that should be more than enough 5 years is a long time in football.

So you would be more happy to risk losing one/both of them to a long term deal - say 9 years at the swans to ensure that we didnt go over the 5 year mark?

You do realise that the club factors in the chance of their output diminishing in (say) years 6 & 7 in the contract amount. So say we think that they are worth $900k for 5 years and $600k for the last two years then that is how the deal is done- although it may be structured differently for salary cap purposes.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

No doubt 7/8 years is a long time. A lot can go wrong.

But again, the landscape dictates that these are now very much the norm. So it's nice to think we'll buck the trend as a club, but reality dictates that's not 7/8 is a very long time.

I'd much rather offer the extra year or two or three than risk losing the talent.


Don't think it has anything to do with the CEO specifically, nor is Austin at fault.

It's the going rate for free agents. Not many move in their prime for short deals or low $ contracts.



The mix currently isn't right. It certainly was for most of last year though and he was a key part of that.

There are easier and far more sensible fixes than moving on Hewett. It wouldn't be a consideration, nor should it be.



Not necessarily but that's not his role.

I'd be very comfortable with him on an Owens or a Windhager. But I'd much rather him in the midfield where I believe he's of most value to our side.

With Williams I think Liddle wanted to be seen as making an impact after all the sos stuff and incorrectly thought we could turn an injury prone backman into a midfielder, 6 years is the going rate for stars but not a player like Williams. Somewhat ironically we desperately need a backman like Williams now with our problems transition the football from defence to attack.

I don’t have a problem with Hewitt being on our list and if he needs to spend time in the reserves for team balance so be it. I just have a problem with the 4 year contract and similar contracts handed out to mid tier players.

Owens has been playing almost as a short centre half forward he would destroy Hewitt and windhager has too much speed and power its not a good matchup, some weeks there maybe a matchup for him but realistically he’s a contested accountable midfielder and that’s the only place he should be considered for a spot in the side.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

So you would be more happy to risk losing one/both of them to a long term deal - say 9 years at the swans to ensure that we didnt go over the 5 year mark?

You do realise that the club factors in the chance of their output diminishing in (say) years 6 & 7 in the contract amount. So say we think that they are worth $900k for 5 years and $600k for the last two years then that is how the deal is done- although it may be structured differently for salary cap purposes.

If swans or some other team offer him 9 years and he takes it good luck to him, use the salary cap in other ways an take the ridiculous amount of draft picks you would get and use them wisely did loosing Franklin hurt the hawks ? Will loosing Grundy or Jackson hurt the pies or demon personally I don’t think so. Look at the giants those large long term contracts have killed their team and they are going nowhere.

 

[BigFrizz36]

If swans or some other team offer him 9 years and he takes it good luck to him, use the salary cap in other ways an take the ridiculous amount of draft picks you would get and use them wisely did loosing Franklin hurt the hawks ? Will loosing Grundy or Jackson hurt the pies or demon personally I don’t think so. Look at the giants those large long term contracts have killed their team and they are going nowhere.

I think that you need to differentiate between long term contracts for key forwards as opposed to long term contracts for rucks/midfielders.

I would suggest that Buddy's 9 year contract has been a success for the swans despite term not winning a flag (membership, making them relevant in a tough market etc). Tom Lynch got a 7 year deal at the tigers which has been successful. Jeremy Cameron got 5 years at Geelong but was 27/28 so it runs till about when Harry and Charlie's do.

That's the category that these guys are in. Teams would go open slather to get them on board. These sort of players elevate good teams to premiership contenders.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

I think that you need to differentiate between long term contracts for key forwards as opposed to long term contracts for rucks/midfielders.

I would suggest that Buddy's 9 year contract has been a success for the swans despite term not winning a flag (membership, making them relevant in a tough market etc). Tom Lynch got a 7 year deal at the tigers which has been successful. Jeremy Cameron got 5 years at Geelong but was 27/28 so it runs till about when Harry and Charlie's do.

That's the category that these guys are in. Teams would go open slather to get them on board. These sort of players elevate good teams to premiership contenders.

Buddy’s contract has been a success for the swans but was not the end of the world for the hawks. The three players you mentioned buddy, lynch and Cameron all left their clubs, I believe if players like Harry and Charlie stayed loyal on fair compensation and years when they retire a big club like Carlton would no doubt repay them for their loyalty for staying one club players weather that be through jobs after football or through contacts they make through their football life playing for a big club.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I’m pretty sure Hawkins 5 year contract ended when he was 32 as will Harry’s/ Charlie 33.
Selwood signed for four years to take him to a 33 year old.
Guthrie just signed for four years or something taking him to 33.
It’s been mentioned with Cameron.

Good Players get big contracts that take them into their early 30’s. Fingers crossed our guys have some good years left in them after that and we get some bargain one year contracts at the end like Geelong have.

 

[Garters]

The supporters who basically only watch our games and take little notice of opposition are going to see first hand our EPIC recruitment fail.

The story of Anthony Caminiti is both spectacular and damning of our list management practices. Pre season Caminiti was VFL listed with us after having an injury punctuated draft year. The kid has a fantastic story.

For anyone not au fait, he was invited to try out at St. Kilda after Jack Silvagni blurted to SOS that this kid had given Weitering a hard time in match sim, perhaps even “gave him a touch up”. When that talent is within your reach, you don’t let it go. Caminiti tried out at Saints, first match sim, multiple marks and goals. He was signed up. We had a list spot as this was being played out.

I love that we rewarded Cincotta when a vacancy occurred. But when a big man of the calibre of Caminiti falls in your lap and you can grab for nothing, you don’t let them go. It is easy to say we invested in Lemmey at the draft and there was not a need, but we have room for another tall. Caminiti is tall, robust, quick and combative has played at both ends and in the ruck in his junior footy.

People are banging on here of the threat of Membrey returning. He will be lucky to get a game. This 19yo kid is the spearhead and that will not change until Max King is fit, and I will be surprised if he is replaced even then. He is that good. He is not a “star” yet, but is shaping like he will be.

Is the one that got away and whoever made the decision not to sign him up whether it be recruiter, coach or administrator, they are going to be “reminded” for over a decade.

It is easy to argue we have Harry and Charlie, but he is game ready NOW and could easily play third tall/ resting ruck in our set up. He is a self starter of the highest order. We could make room. Just like we could make room for Lemmey when he comes on. For the record posters suggesting Lemmey is anywhere near ready are kidding themselves, he is a long term project currently giving a few decent signs. If both made the grade, at worst we would have a player who could bring massive bounty at the trade table.

Interesting take. We are desperate for a goal kicking 3rd fwd. May have been that piece of the puzzle. Our list is massively lumpy, age, ability and positionally. These gaps need to be filled now if you are to have Cripps et al be part of the solution. Great we went to the draft but there are key pieces that need to be filled with mature bodies that can play next year and clea out a number of injury prone/ non performers. Tough position to be in list wise personally is how I see us currently.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Not really.

AA squad is largely voted on by journalists and media personalities who we spend the entire year making fun of.

Why all of a sudden is their opinion gospel?



That’s fine. I call it as I see it and I’m not a fan of either Hopper or Hill.

I have Williams as clearly the better player.

what are you basing it on other than your gut feel? fine to discredit aa squad if you have something more credible

 

[Jeremias]

With Williams I think Liddle wanted to be seen as making an impact after all the sos stuff and incorrectly thought we could turn an injury prone backman into a midfielder, 6 years is the going rate for stars but not a player like Williams. Somewhat ironically we desperately need a backman like Williams now with our problems transition the football from defence to attack.

He wasn't the only one; Williams had played some seriously good football through the middle for the Giants.

Injuries haven't helped with this one. But yeah I'm prepared to acknowledge that it's not looking good at the moment.

I don’t have a problem with Hewitt being on our list and if he needs to spend time in the reserves for team balance so be it. I just have a problem with the 4 year contract and similar contracts handed out to mid tier players.

He won't spend time at VFL level for team balance. There are other levers to be pulled before we see a top 10 player at the club play VFL due to 'team balance'.

Owens has been playing almost as a short centre half forward he would destroy Hewitt and windhager has too much speed and power its not a good matchup, some weeks there maybe a matchup for him but realistically he’s a contested accountable midfielder and that’s the only place he should be considered for a spot in the side.

He could do a job down back, the exact opposition is somewhat irrelevant. The point was more he has and can play in multiple positions, he's not just a contested mid.

But yes, he should be in there as a midfielder. And unless he's not fit, that's where I expect him to be.

 

[Jeremias]

what are you basing it on other than your gut feel? fine to discredit aa squad if you have something more credible

Why is the AA squad 'credible'?

So the 40th player who makes the extended squad is worthy of praise, but potentially the 41st who just misses out is not?

It's a very shallow metric.

 

[Beyond Blue]

The supporters who basically only watch our games and take little notice of opposition are going to see first hand our EPIC recruitment fail.

The story of Anthony Caminiti is both spectacular and damning of our list management practices. Pre season Caminiti was VFL listed with us after having an injury punctuated draft year. The kid has a fantastic story.

For anyone not au fait, he was invited to try out at St. Kilda after Jack Silvagni blurted to SOS that this kid had given Weitering a hard time in match sim, perhaps even “gave him a touch up”. When that talent is within your reach, you don’t let it go. Caminiti tried out at Saints, first match sim, multiple marks and goals. He was signed up. We had a list spot as this was being played out.

I love that we rewarded Cincotta when a vacancy occurred. But when a big man of the calibre of Caminiti falls in your lap and you can grab for nothing, you don’t let them go. It is easy to say we invested in Lemmey at the draft and there was not a need, but we have room for another tall. Caminiti is tall, robust, quick and combative has played at both ends and in the ruck in his junior footy.

People are banging on here of the threat of Membrey returning. He will be lucky to get a game. This 19yo kid is the spearhead and that will not change until Max King is fit, and I will be surprised if he is replaced even then. He is that good. He is not a “star” yet, but is shaping like he will be.

Is the one that got away and whoever made the decision not to sign him up whether it be recruiter, coach or administrator, they are going to be “reminded” for over a decade.

It is easy to argue we have Harry and Charlie, but he is game ready NOW and could easily play third tall/ resting ruck in our set up. He is a self starter of the highest order. We could make room. Just like we could make room for Lemmey when he comes on. For the record posters suggesting Lemmey is anywhere near ready are kidding themselves, he is a long term project currently giving a few decent signs. If both made the grade, at worst we would have a player who could bring massive bounty at the trade table.

It’s a pretty dumb thing to do by Jack and does make a person wonder about his conflict of interest.

I do agree with you on Lemney. From what I have seen of him in the 2s he is nowhere near ready to play league.

It looks like Caminiti will be suspended for our game this week but I too share your concern this could hurt us long term.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Why is the AA squad 'credible'?

So the 40th player who makes the extended squad is worthy of praise, but potentially the 41st who just misses out is not?

It's a very shallow metric.

better to make it than not right?

what makes you think williams is better?

 

[DangerousD]

1) I’m just using Selwood and Hawkins as an example there are many others but it’s well known they took unders through their careers and rarely waited until the years their contract was up to sign long term deals.

2) Cripps is a star but the position he plays and the smashing his body takes the end comes very quickly for these types of players Voss and Ratten are perfect examples of this.

3) Charlie and Harry have both had major injury issues throughout their careers having them signed up for 7/8 years is way overboard if they are not happy to stay loyal with say a 4/5 year deal have the courage to let them go, look at the ridiculous price Fremantle paid for Jackson no player is irreplaceable.

4) Hewitt had a solid year last season but Sydney new what they were doing letting him go, they new he had back problems, they new he was slow one positioned and they needed to create midfield space for Warner, Rowbottom, florent and others to thrive, reality is Hewitt wouldn’t get a game In half the afl teams at the moment, look at Matt crouch, jarrod lyons and other slow one position players who are equal or better than Hewitt who don’t get games for their respective teams.

Hewett one positioned? Which one position is that? Hewett plays as an on baller in our side, played regularly as a tagged and off half back for the Swans.

 

[Arr0w]

Hewett one positioned? Which one position is that? Hewett plays as an on baller in our side, played regularly as a tagged and off half back for the Swans.

Also as a forward

 

[Jeremias]

better to make it than not right?

The team? Sure

The squad is largely irrelevant. Again, what separates the 40th best from the 41st?

what makes you think williams is better?

Skillset, impact per possession, ability to play multiple positions, impact in big games, just a few off the top of my head

 

[CJMB]

Buddy’s contract has been a success for the swans but was not the end of the world for the hawks. The three players you mentioned buddy, lynch and Cameron all left their clubs, I believe if players like Harry and Charlie stayed loyal on fair compensation and years when they retire a big club like Carlton would no doubt repay them for their loyalty for staying one club players weather that be through jobs after football or through contacts they make through their football life playing for a big club.

Couple of things. Charlie and Harry would have been offered more, definitely dollars and probably similar if not equal years, to leave. They took less staying with us.

And they’ll have the jobs through football and Carlton contacts regardless.

Are they not loyal because they stayed on a long deal? What’s fair compensation? And what if that player say did something notable, like kick the most goals or be awarded a league B&F?…

 

[HarryFlashman]

It’s a pretty dumb thing to do by Jack and does make a person wonder about his conflict of interest.

I do agree with you on Lemney. From what I have seen of him in the 2s he is nowhere near ready to play league.

It looks like Caminiti will be suspended for our game this week but I too share your concern this could hurt us long term.

Sort of re Jack- good to see him looking out for a young player trying to have a career, you would assume he spoke internally & got “clearance” before he mentioned it to his old man. If we had him at the club we had every opportunity to keep him

 

[Juddernaut08]

The team? Sure

The squad is largely irrelevant. Again, what separates the 40th best from the 41st?


Skillset, impact per possession, ability to play multiple positions, impact in big games, just a few off the top of my head

Laughable for you to call it irrelevant. Plenty of great players make the squad and just miss out - see Kreuzer and Weitering.

Hill is a better kick and gets more run so his impact per possession would exceed Williams.

Multi positioned? He's played maybe a handful of games competently in the midfield. Hes a hbf though.

The more you try and double down on this strange call the more unconvincing it is.

Hopper is a different type of player, inside and big bodied, but he'd likely command more at the trade table than williams. Fine if you prefer Williams on skillset but thats not 'better' particularly when considering contract values.

Willams was offered overs because it cost us no draft picks. Same as Martin. No shame in admitting it.

 

[gbatman]

Our midfield is a large part of whether we do well or not.It’s struggled from round 1 and on the weekend was exposed badly.It’s a bit one paced a lot like ports was.Inject some pace (Rozee/Butters) and it gives us a different look.

I’m confident they will improve but the coaching staff need a plan B as it seems teams have worked out our weapons and that goes for CC and HM.


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Our midfield is too one way. It's generally good at winning the ball and when it does we go well. When our midfield doesn't win the ball and the opposition are, it's really poor at applying defensive pressure.

Adelaide were really good at making sure the ball came out in the open. Exposed us something shocking. If you have a quick midfield that isn't lazy, you can make up ground, close in on lose balls and opposition players quickly and apply pressure. Teams like Collingwood, Adelaide last week and St Kilda have been good with this this season. When you have a slow midfield immobile like ours you just can't.

It's the missing part of our game. It's one of the reasons why our wins have been narrow and hard fought. It's why we had a draw and not a win. It's why a quick team who figured us out took our "full strength" midfield and torched it.

We need to add pace into the middle of the ground. That can be done by someone like Boyd or Cincotta coming good and allowing Docherty to go on the ball full time. Dow coming good. Recruiting someone.

Structure, having the right mix of players is so important.

Only 1 of Hewett, Kennedy and Curnow plays in a premiership team IMO. Maybe 2 but I feel that's going off balance.

End of the day, the last time we raved about our team's tackling and pressure, Wayne Brittain was coach.

We need a bit of luck. We need Dow to come on and do what he's been doing in the seconds this season. We need Docherty back fit and playing full time mid and we need some of our smaller defenders to come on and allow that to happen. Guys like Boyd, Cincotta get Saad and Williams back fit. Injuries are hurting at the moment.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Our midfield is too one way. It's generally good at winning the ball and when it does we go well. When our midfield doesn't win the ball and the opposition are, it's really poor at applying defensive pressure.

Adelaide were really good at making sure the ball came out in the open. Exposed us something shocking. If you have a quick midfield that isn't lazy, you can make up ground, close in on lose balls and opposition players quickly and apply pressure. Teams like Collingwood, Adelaide last week and St Kilda have been good with this this season. When you have a slow midfield immobile like ours you just can't.

It's the missing part of our game. It's one of the reasons why our wins have been narrow and hard fought. It's why we had a draw and not a win. It's why a quick team who figured us out took our "full strength" midfield and torched it.

We need to add pace into the middle of the ground. That can be done by someone like Boyd or Cincotta coming good and allowing Docherty to go on the ball full time. Dow coming good. Recruiting someone.

Structure, having the right mix of players is so important.

Only 1 of Hewett, Kennedy and Curnow plays in a premiership team IMO. Maybe 2 but I feel that's going off balance.

End of the day, the last time we raved about our team's tackling and pressure, Wayne Brittain was coach.

We need a bit of luck. We need Dow to come on and do what he's been doing in the seconds this season. We need Docherty back fit and playing full time mid and we need some of our smaller defenders to come on and allow that to happen. Guys like Boyd, Cincotta get Saad and Williams back fit. Injuries are hurting at the moment.

fantastic post!

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Couple of things. Charlie and Harry would have been offered more, definitely dollars and probably similar if not equal years, to leave. They took less staying with us.

And they’ll have the jobs through football and Carlton contacts regardless.

Are they not loyal because they stayed on a long deal? What’s fair compensation? And what if that player say did something notable, like kick the most goals or be awarded a league B&F?…

Players are always going get offered a lot more to move to another club, why would anyone leave somewhere they are comfortable with for only a minor pay rise.

Both Harry and Charlie deserve to be paid as top 5/6 key forwards in the game they are both stars.

In my original post I was complimentary about some things Austin has done with Saad, Cerra, Motlop, Durdin and Hollands but was just questioning the generosity he has with the length of contracts he hands out Harry and Charlie signed until 2030/2029 is a long time a lot can change in that time but the stars signing I don’t have a major issue with.

The contracts that I do have some issues with are
Williams 6 years but probably nothing to do with Austin.
Hewitt, Kennedy and Fisher all contracted before the start of this year until 2025 why so long for mid tier players.
Owies, O’Brien and Cottrell given 2 years off a rookie list contract why?
And Dow somehow having an extra year added onto his contract at some stage reportedly by some on a large enough amount to make it impossible to trade him last year.