List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[L_W_P]

Also with the Swans bringing in Grundy I rekon we should make a play for Peter Ladhams

19

Peter Ladhams

Age

27

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.8

5star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

21.0

5star

K

9.0

4star

HB

12.0

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.4

3star

.

Not a great tap but finds the footy and can kick a goal when pushed forward.

He's a poor man's RoMa but I can see the two of them playing well together and rotating between deep forward and on ball.

 

[Yawkey way]

Any chance we can open a new thread to moan about things that happened in 2014 and this one sticks to the 2023 trade period.

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[MordySaint]

All my opinion:

Gresh - 50/50 - Will depend on the offer from Essendon. If it's too low then we will match it, or even beat it, and I think he stays. If we get band 1 (1st round) or band 2 (end of 1st round) then I think he goes.

Clark - Staying. Has an offer on the table. Only club interested was North but they've moved on to Fisher and Dyl Stephens.

Billings - Staying. Not worth it to us in a trade so we back him in to regain form.

Coff - Unsure. The Lions interest is legit but they are also sounding out Doedee from the Crows as a free agent. A swap for Lohman would suit all parties but Brisbane would probably prefer Doedee and then a pick for Kai.

Jordan - Maybe. There will be a few teams have a look at him. Going to depend on the pitch from RTB and the team.

Tomlinson - Staying at Melbourne. Has been told he won't be traded and is their FB now with Petty being transitioned to the forward line next year.

Henry - 100% in. Will be some haggling over price. Rekon it's a F2nd special.

GC #4 - Don't think we have the ammo. Dogs and Dees will both offer multiple picks, including 1st rounders.

I'll add some:

Dow - 100% coming. Will be a late/token pick.

Goldstein - Unsure. He's spoken to the Bombers via Brad Scott but I think their offer was more is more of a playing coach alongside Draper where as ours is "break glass in emergency" should a forward or RoMa get hurt.

Howard - Will depend on our ability to get a replacement. If we can get someone like Clurey for free or Gardner cheap, then move Howard on for a 2nd rounder, I think we do it. If not then Howard stays and fights for a starting spot with Cordy.

I'd be comfortable with this, as long as we don't trade our first round pick again.

James Jordan and Dow, if coming will improve our midfield markedly



Still playing good football in 2022

 

[sammm]

Wait till we get back into the details of the Silvio Foschini transfer…

how about the Jesalenko to Stkilda as captain coach?

 

[BrutThough]

Given we've stated we want to go to the draft, does our interest in Jordan suggest we think Gresh will stay since bringing him in will hurt any FA compo we receive? Or is it one we Melbourne will accept a late pick for? While matching any FA deal is very unlikely - would matching to force the trade allow us to still get something decent for Gresh without having to give up anything for Jordan?

While I know the semantics of individual trades don't matter, the thought of getting in a late pick for Coffield or Billings and then on trading that for a downgrade of talent in Jordan isn't great. Lessoning the talent we have at our disposal isn't what we need to be doing.

 

[MordySaint]

how about the Jesalenko to Stkilda as captain coach?

Nothing wrong with this, still irks the Carlscum supporters that he isn't a one club player

 

[Yawkey way]

I'd be comfortable with this, as long as we don't trade our first round pick again.

James Jordan and Dow, if coming will improve our midfield markedly



Still playing good football in 2022

Jesus wept that’s a D grader if ever I’ve seen one.

 

[MordySaint]

Jesus wept that’s a D grader if ever I’ve seen one.

Isn't that what this forum said about TDK

 

[gringo2011]

And Kochie made us pay for Richo. Humiliating.

Port and Freo love it when the Saints or North come calling. Like a pair of geriatrics handing out their bank details to unsolicited text messages.

 

[beside the seaside]

I can’t see us getting better or worse next year.
So depending on injuries and draw I think we again are a 6th-12th team.
Any expectation above that with the age profile and lack of dept is delusional.

We need to aim to get better. We should be aiming to go into the top four, we've been yo-yoing for years we've now seen what we are capable of. Address the deficiencies via trade, draft and on the training track and take another step forward in 2024.

Enough of the mediocrity. 2023 needs to be a stepping stone.

 

[jimmytigs]

Seriously these repeated comments about Silvagni just recycling GWS players in his role at Carlton are just lazy and tired. It is the one sentence soundbite that everyone contributes on the topic so they can simply add something to the conversation. But its just shallow and adds no substance. I am by no means a defender of SOS, but his overall body of work in that period is much larger than just that.

I am sure I have missed some things, but below should give a bit of an idea.

Silvagni arrived back at Carlton late 2014 as list manager, and left following the draft in 2019. Ignoring the draft as that not his primary focus, my grades for his trade work are below.

2015 – A+
Traded Tom Bell to Brisbane for 21. Big tick
Traded Chris Yarran to Richmond for 19. Wow!!
Traded out a first round bust in T.Menzal for a mid-second and S.Kerridge. Huge tick
Traded Lachie Henderson to Geelong for a late first. Break even
Traded that late first (Henderson) and pile of junk picks to GWS for Plowman, Phillips, Lamb, Sumner AND pick 8 (which became Harry McKay)

2016 - D+
Traded Thouy & an early second for Smedts and a late first. Ouch.
Then traded that late first for quality in Marchbank. Would have been okay if his body wasnt made of glass. A second pile of junk in Palmer & Pickett were attached as condition of sale

2017 - A
Traded out an over the hill Gibbs for two firsts (10 & 16) with some other later swaps. Great work anyway you cut it
Traded in M.Kennedy for a mid-second rounder. A solid, poor mans version of the Steele trade
Traded in a third pile of junk in Lang & Lobbe, but at no cost

2018 – D
Gave a massive contract and a mid-first rounder for M.McGovern. Really not great
Got N.Newman for a packet of twisties. Tick
Picked up Fasolo as an FA as a list clogger

2019 – C+
Got Betts back. Tick
Bought in Pittonet for a packet of twisties. Tick
Signed Newnes as a FA. Serviceable in a list lacking depth
Gave Phillips to Essendon. Meh

My overall impression is he is excellent for getting value out of B graders and flawed quality on a list. Which is exactly what we need right now. Hasn’t really hit much in the bargain bin. One absolute howler in M.McGovern. But that is a significant body of work that is much larger than "he just likes the first rounders that he drafted at his last club." Yes he took on some GWS junk, but that was to buy a top 10 pick (2015) and Marchbank (2016).

If he can do something like what he did overall in 2015 with our current pile of OOC players, we will be building him a statue

just tell him to keep away from carlton players,because its very very clear that he got the garbage from gws,while future club captains,club leading goalkickers,rightful(in some minds)norm smith winners & other very good types went elsewhere

 

[stavro#4]

The only lousy seasons billings has had have been due to injury, plantar fasciitis ruined his free agency year when he played through with it and was bagged for not playing up to his usual standards. Since then he’s had back surgery, a fractured leg, a broken thumb and some soft tissue problems like most.

When Jack billings is fit Imo he’s a class above most on our list and easily best 22. Unlike our other small forwards if that’s where they choose to play him he can actually find plenty of the ball and is strong overhead. Trading him for a packet of chips is just dumb Imo, I hope he stays and kills it. Makes me shudder when I think of some of the plonkers we‘re keeping and shakes my trust in those making recruiting decisions.

Billings last full season was 2019, 4 going on 5 years ago. In 2017 or 2019 form, absolutely in our best 22.

Out of interest, if you were the decision maker at St Kilda, how much would you pay per year to keep Billings on the list?

My view on the guy is "no win". Can't see any club paying overs so is there any real value in pushing him out other than to clear a spot on the list? On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be spending very much coin at all to keep him on the list.

Billings is absolutely worth every cent of what he’s getting, try replacing his production when fit for less. All that will happen here is we‘ll end up paying part of his salary to move him on just adding insult to injury.

If things fall our way with Gresham and Howard at least i can see the argument for it. Best case we wind up with two extra early picks and catapult our list forward with youth. What’s the logic on billings, we moved on a quality player and person for a packet of chips because we were bored with him being injured ?. I might add these aren’t the never ending three weeks calf/hamstring injuries. It’s the same with coffield why the hell are we playing hard ball with him when a two year offer probably gets it done.

I know it’s early but I’m starting to see excuses, talk of going backwards and some very uninspiring trades. They’d want to nail the draft because what’s coming in is a lot worse than what’s being mooted as going out. Gresham, Howard, coffield, Clark, billings all out sounds like a disaster to me. I hear the oh we wouldn‘t miss x or y, they don’t move the needle, they won’t be in our next premiership side . They may not be the A graders we wanted them to be but unless you can replace them with better you’re going backwards.

LOL - The 2023 season is over for us.. the next time Billings potentially suits up for us is in 2024 and we are still banging on about when he was fully fit back in 2017/19....

Even when fit... He only managed 3 games this year.

which very much suggests he isn't in RTBs best 22.

It means he is a fringe player and very much someone who would want to move on and someone we can afford to move on.

In Comparison... Gresham is much more maligned, Had injuries that are more serious than JBs and he is someone we would also let go. But has played whenever he is fit.


The fact is that if you want us to improve. Its going to occur via the Draft Trade or Free Agency.

There is no Free Agent that will substantially improve us this year.

there isn't any huge targets available for trade - currently.

so it's the draft - the avenue we have done very well in the past 24 months.

1 first round & 1 Second round pick isnt going to change our fortunes and make us a contender.

Good list management is moving on cusp players who we have outgrown. The H/Sun reported we were happy to cover some Billings Salary for a second rounder.

Thats a good deal if it eventuates.

 

[stavro#4]

just tell him to keep away from carlton players,because its very very clear that he got the garbage from gws,while future club captains,club leading goalkickers,rightful(in some minds)norm smith winners & other very good types went elsewhere

They got pick 8 - Harry Mckay from the Giants stuff and Marchbank was a good player who got smashed by injuries.

The rest were just an accumulation of talent that he tried to sift through for nothing picks really and see if he could find a player.

 

[MordySaint]

So it was Ameet doing the draft selections & not Trout?

Who was responsible for signing Skunk for nothing? Steele for a future 2nd? Trading a single 1st that brought in Coff, Battle & now Hotten?

Hard to keep up with who is to blame/give credit to.

Ameet at trade night

 

[gringo2011]

I CBF scrolling through the whole thread but can someone give me like a system out of 10 how likely all this stuff is

Gresh going
Clark going
Billings going
Coff going

Jordon in
Tomlinson in
Henry in
Gold Coast pick 4 in

Anything else I’ve missed?

That looks pretty ordinary. Probably down on talent but up on some potential for role players apart from pick 4 which is almost certainly not happening and even then looks like only McKercher is a need.

 

[saintmike65]

What I like about sos is he thinks outside the box and has a crack .. you could point out mistakes every single list manager has made

I don’t get the negativity either .. Carlton’s list right now is largely him

SOS and Gubby are shrewd, experienced operators…they won’t be bent over like previous list managers!

 

[jimmytigs]

They got pick 8 - Harry Mckay from the Giants stuff and Marchbank was a good player who got smashed by injuries.

The rest were just an accumulation of talent that he tried to sift through for nothing picks really and see if he could find a player.

we gotta back sos in i get that,but im seeing a whole lot of bitching about past mistakes,lets get ahead of the game and prevent one for a change=sos take a look at all 17 teams,dont get infatuated by just one

 

[The Slug]

Dow finished 7th in the JJ Liston. Fair effort for a guy who played 10 games at AFL level.

 

[stavro#4]

we gotta back sos in i get that,but im seeing a whole lot of bitching about past mistakes,lets get ahead of the game and prevent one for a change=sos take a look at all 17 teams,dont get infatuated by just one

He knew those players intimately and he built that list. He knew they were talented.

that's why he took the chance

 

[gringo2011]

About as good as Clayton Olivers.

The first rule of drafting - can they get the ball?

2nd rule - draft George Stevens

That's a good start but if we just want possession Charlie Constable would be a great get. If Lyon won't play another slow inside ball winner and wants spread and dash, recruiting him just makes Sandy stronger. I like him but it's a whole lot more than just accumulation. Macrae at the Dogs has been sent to the forward line because the fashion for high accumulation guys that don't hurt has changed.

 

[jimmytigs]

He knew those players intimately and he built that list. He knew they were talented.

that's why he took the chance

yep and he blew it and we should learn from it,might cut out 20 pages of moaning on the draft thread pre season 2029

 

[saintmike65]

Just remember if we take Jordan we lose any compo we get for Gresh

If that’s the case we just give Melbourne a junk pick for Jordan that we wouldn’t use anyway!

 

[gringo2011]

I can’t see us getting better or worse next year.
So depending on injuries and draw I think we again are a 6th-12th team.
Any expectation above that with the age profile and lack of dept is delusional.

Our quality is going to be diluted but the players will be more likely to be available I guess. You never know, sometimes you get on a run and everything just clicks but I feel more like we'll drop back. Most other sides around our level have claims on why they'll improve too. GC look almost certain to push into the top 8. Just about every side outside of WC and Geelong look like they'll have some improvement in them.

We are bringing in kids and digging in the bin while sending off the more talented but less applied players on our list. That doesn't look like a recipe for success but with a fit forward line I guess we have that to hold on to.

 

[stavro#4]

yep and he blew it and we should learn from it,might cut out 20 pages of moaning on the draft thread pre season 2029

It was an attempt to find a good player for little cost on a list that was desperate for talent

that's not the definition of blowing it in this case.

its a failed attempt ... sure

but it was a worthwhile attempt for the position they were in.


Context is very important. Enclosed_Animal has done a good job giving it to you

 

[stavro#4]

Our quality is going to be diluted but the players will be more likely to be available I guess. You never know, sometimes you get on a run and everything just clicks but I feel more like we'll drop back. Most other sides around our level have claims on why they'll improve too. GC look almost certain to push into the top 8. Just about every side outside of WC and Geelong look like they'll have some improvement in them.

We are bringing in kids and digging in the bin while sending off the more talented but less applied players on our list. That doesn't look like a recipe for success but with a fit forward line I guess we have that to hold on to.

We have plenty of reason to think we can improve too.

Owens Pou Windy Nas Caminiti Byrnes

a full season of King

a fully fit Steele

Don't think we have a player in our best 22 that appears to be at that drop off point either.

The unknowns are the likes of Henry Down Jordan and the draft

I can also appreciate why we might fall back - But i dont think there is alot behind us, aside from maybe Sydney who i think have better talent then us.