List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part II

[stavro#4]

Byrnes? Not sure.

Frustrating player.

then has patches of great football... Third quarter v Brisbane after he came on as a sub.

RTB doesnt gift games. So he has something to preserve with and see what happens.

 

[Yawkey way]

Isn't that what this forum said about TDK

Not quite, I think from memory the sentiment was he wasn’t worth huge money and a first rounder.

 

[Yawkey way]

LOL - The 2023 season is over for us.. the next time Billings potentially suits up for us is in 2024 and we are still banging on about when he was fully fit back in 2017/19....

Even when fit... He only managed 3 games this year.

which very much suggests he isn't in RTBs best 22.

It means he is a fringe player and very much someone who would want to move on and someone we can afford to move on.

In Comparison... Gresham is much more maligned, Had injuries that are more serious than JBs and he is someone we would also let go. But has played whenever he is fit.


The fact is that if you want us to improve. Its going to occur via the Draft Trade or Free Agency.

There is no Free Agent that will substantially improve us this year.

there isn't any huge targets available for trade - currently.

so it's the draft - the avenue we have done very well in the past 24 months.

1 first round & 1 Second round pick isnt going to change our fortunes and make us a contender.

Good list management is moving on cusp players who we have outgrown. The H/Sun reported we were happy to cover some Billings Salary for a second rounder.

Thats a good deal if it eventuates.

Haha do you write comedy? Fractured led and a broken thumb, harden up Jack you’re too soft.

 

[stavro#4]

Haha do you write comedy? Fractured led and a broken thumb, harden up Jack you’re too soft.

i didn't say Jack didn't play because he was soft.

i was referring to Gresham having torn his achilles, His Patella and still managed to fight his was back and be part of our best 22 whenever he is fit - which isn't something we can say with Billings. He isnt best 22 when fit - others have gone past him

 

[DougalHoward]

Byrnes? Not sure.

He was vastly improved this year

 

[ScrappyDo]

Nah we were so hung up on Richardson because of his work as a development coach.

He was touted as the best in the league and bringing kids into the AFL and getting them up to speed with the top tier.

The thinking was that if he was given the whole list then they would all grow and learn together and the rebuild would be accelerated.

Unfortunately his game day tactics left plenty to be desired and, combined with our iffy recruiting, it all went nowhere pretty fast.

I don't believe that for a second.
Richo was a nobody who they needed a marketing tag for.
Coz he was everyone's chum they coined the "highly regarded" Alan Richardson.
And coz we needed a development coach, and he's done some assistant gigs he was given the title of "Development Coach".

The "Highly Regarded Development Coach Alan Richardson" was pure marketing spin to pass off a potato to a despondent supporter base as we all trundled down The Road to 2018.

 

[MordySaint]

So it was Ameet who made the calls then.

Sweet

Trout will be relieved to hear that he’s off the hook.

You haven’t answered the following post though…. Who gets the credit for the savvy trades that were made during that time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ameet Baines was part of the recruitment team that made many mistakes and also as you say savvy trades. He can take responsibilty for the good trades as well...

Inside St Kilda: Why the Saints drafted Paddy McCartin

Emma Quayle sat in on St Kilda's recruiting meetings throughout 2014 for her book The Draftees.

www.theage.com.au

"Emma Quayle sat in on St Kilda's recruiting meetings throughout 2014 for her book The Draftees. In this edited extract, the recruiting team of Tony Elshaug, Ameet Bains and Chris Liberatore tell coach Alan Richardson and CEO Matt Finnis why they settled on Paddy McCartin as the No. 1 draft pick over Christian Petracca, Angus Brayshaw and Peter Wright."

 

[Sainter1873]

He was vastly improved this year

Maybe but I don’t see him improving enough to make us better. I’ve always thought he’d make a better on-baller than wingman/flanker.

 

[Miha]

Ameet Baines was part of the recruitment team that made many mistakes and also as you say savvy trades. He can take responsibilty for the good trades as well...

Inside St Kilda: Why the Saints drafted Paddy McCartin

Emma Quayle sat in on St Kilda's recruiting meetings throughout 2014 for her book The Draftees.

www.theage.com.au

"Emma Quayle sat in on St Kilda's recruiting meetings throughout 2014 for her book The Draftees. In this edited extract, the recruiting team of Tony Elshaug, Ameet Bains and Chris Liberatore tell coach Alan Richardson and CEO Matt Finnis why they settled on Paddy McCartin as the No. 1 draft pick over Christian Petracca, Angus Brayshaw and Peter Wright."

I’m gonna spew

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Haha do you write comedy? Fractured led and a broken thumb, harden up Jack you’re too soft.

Yep, I get people are peeved with him being pick 3, but he must have touched people in the wrong places. As RTB always says, he loves the incumbent and Jack just didn’t really get going after serious injuries. He was playing that HF role very well in the VFL - still getting plenty of touches given he wasn’t in the mids as much.

 

[MrFoster]

Frustrating player.

then has patches of great football... Third quarter v Brisbane after he came on as a sub.

RTB doesnt gift games. So he has something to preserve with and see what happens.

Actually think Brynes should be part of the midfield rotation rather than playing on the wing. Yes, he can run, but he is actually good at winning clearances and bursting from stoppages.. just need a strong midfield to unlock some good support mids in Brynes, potentially Stocker as well.

 

[L_W_P]

I don't believe that for a second.
Richo was a nobody who they needed a marketing tag for.
Coz he was everyone's chum they coined the "highly regarded" Alan Richardson.
And coz we needed a development coach, and he's done some assistant gigs he was given the title of "Development Coach".

The "Highly Regarded Development Coach Alan Richardson" was pure marketing spin to pass off a potato to a despondent supporter base as we all trundled down The Road to 2018.

He was absolutely that well regarded.

I distinctly remember discussing him before he became coach and highlighting his rep for development. I think it was post RTB I was advocating for Dean Laidley as head coach (due to his great work with a pretty average North list) and Richardson his 2IC, based on his development reputation.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

I'd be comfortable with this, as long as we don't trade our first round pick again.

James Jordan and Dow, if coming will improve our midfield markedly



Still playing good football in 2022

Markedly?

I’m not against either, but they are fringe players just like Bytel, Billings, etc etc that are apparently terrible players on here.

 

[MrFoster]

Yep, I get people are peeved with him being pick 3, but he must have touched people in the wrong places. As RTB always says, he loves the incumbent and Jack just didn’t really get going after serious injuries. He was playing that HF role very well in the VFL - still getting plenty of touches given he wasn’t in the mids as much.

Jack was suppose to have a bit of x-factor as a goal kicking half forward. He is now becoming a low impact and vanilla kick-mark utility who doesn’t win his own ball.. doesn’t really have a standout quality(his left foot is ordinary as they come), is already 28 and people still hope he’ll be our Toby Green.. Think the criticism towards him is fair enough, that can also be said about other players from that era, Dunstan, Acres, McCartin, Goddard, Mckenzie, Clark, Coffield.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

We have plenty of reason to think we can improve too.

Owens Pou Windy Nas Caminiti Byrnes

a full season of King

a fully fit Steele

Don't think we have a player in our best 22 that appears to be at that drop off point either.

The unknowns are the likes of Henry Down Jordan and the draft

I can also appreciate why we might fall back - But i dont think there is alot behind us, aside from maybe Sydney who i think have better talent then us.

Love the direction of the club, the new coaching setup and the talent brought in in the last two years but we are still coming from a fair way back when it comes to talent on the list. Think the Dogs, Adelaide, Fremantle and the Suns as a starting point have more talented lists then us.

Think we will improve next year but there is every chance we get jumped by a few clubs as well, improvement doesn't have to be linear on the ladder.

 

[Yawkey way]

i didn't say Jack didn't play because he was soft.

i was referring to Gresham having torn his achilles, His Patella and still managed to fight his was back and be part of our best 22 whenever he is fit - which isn't something we can say with Billings. He isnt best 22 when fit - others have gone past him

Well thats where we differ I think a fit billings walks into our best 22 and trading him will come back to haunt us. Who just out of interest has gone past a fit billings?. I can remember quite a few posters who said Sinclair was ordinary and wasn’t best 22 and that long was a star. Nobody gets it right all the time and I have no problem with others opinions but facts about injury etc shouldn’t be twisted.

Yes gresham has fought back from injury and imo is still a way off his best, a fact I’ve mentioned on here before. All I’m saying is that billings has had a horror run and it’s a fact he was a bloody good afl player when fit, what’s changed except the narrative. Factually he hasn’t been crap since 2017 when he had 59 scoring shots, he was moved to a different role because that’s what the team needed. What started this billings is crap, vanilla, overplayed, can’t play routine was like Gresham his restricted free agency in 2021. He had plantar fasciitis that year and played through it under duress and wasn‘t great. People started bagging his contract and questioning his worth just like Gresham, billings has had a horror run since then but he’s contracted on reasonable money and like Gresham absolutely a class above many imo and a walk up for our best 22.

Yep, I get people are peeved with him being pick 3, but he must have touched people in the wrong places. As RTB always says, he loves the incumbent and Jack just didn’t really get going after serious injuries. He was playing that HF role very well in the VFL - still getting plenty of touches given he wasn’t in the mids as much.

Yes I think that his best is as a high half forward and I’m confident his marking and foot skills would give us something that’s lacking. I absolutely wouldn’t trade him let alone give him away, we’re crying out for quality and he’s quality imo.

 

[stavro#4]

Love the direction of the club, the new coaching setup and the talent brought in in the last two years but we are still coming from a fair way back when it comes to talent on the list. Think the Dogs, Adelaide, Fremantle and the Suns as a starting point have more talented lists then us.

Think we will improve next year but there is every chance we get jumped by a few clubs as well, improvement doesn't have to be linear on the ladder.

I agree with you and shared that the club see it this way too.

They are willing to cut some of the fringe senior blokes for more currency at the draft table to improve.

But talent is only part of the equation and i'm confident we have the coaching and development of those clubs covered under RTB

 

[Mowman]

I can’t see us getting better or worse next year.
So depending on injuries and draw I think we again are a 6th-12th team.
Any expectation above that with the age profile and lack of dept is delusional.

Can’t see us getting better?
Pou
Caminiti
Windy
NAS
Owens
Sharman
All have had great years and huge development this year all should improve next year

A full year from king is another reason we can improve

Smashed by injuries this year

Another Pre season under RTB and a fully fit Steele is another reason we will improve

Your 1st post said we shouldn’t be expecting finals

Not expecting finals is delusional and a loser mentality that the club has had for the last decade and needs to rid itself of

 

[Klaatu]

I would class a fringe player in a top 4 side over the last 4 years better then our bottom 6 to 8 players & better then our fringe players.

 

[Saintbloke]

Byrnes will improve a lot, not every player can burst on the scene and look like they are going to tear a game apart early in their career. Development has been a dirty word at St Kilda in all the decades I have followed the club. I remember feeling encouraged when Watters tried to get a development strategy in place and possibly rebuilding the list, then he got howled down, and we ended up with Richo, who was only keen on developing half back flankers and in the end we stood still for years.

I hope the current thinking at the club is development, and not the old Saints quick fix strategy which has contributed to a chronic lack of success for years.

 

[stavro#4]

Well thats where we differ I think a fit billings walks into our best 22 and trading him will come back to haunt us. Who just out of interest has gone past a fit billings?. I can remember quite a few posters who said Sinclair was ordinary and wasn’t best 22 and that long was a star. Nobody gets it right all the time and I have no problem with others opinions but facts about injury etc shouldn’t be twisted.

Yes gresham has fought back from injury and imo is still a way off his best, a fact I’ve mentioned on here before. All I’m saying is that billings has had a horror run and it’s a fact he was a bloody good afl player when fit, what’s changed except the narrative. Factually he hasn’t been crap since 2017 when he had 59 scoring shots, he was moved to a different role because that’s what the team needed. What started this billings is crap, vanilla, overplayed, can’t play routine was like Gresham his restricted free agency in 2021. He had plantar fasciitis that year and played through it under duress and wasn‘t great. People started bagging his contract and questioning his worth just like Gresham, billings has had a horror run since then but he’s contracted on reasonable money and like Gresham absolutely a class above many imo and a walk up for our best 22.

Yes I think that his best is as a high half forward and I’m confident his marking and foot skills would give us something that’s lacking. I absolutely wouldn’t trade him let alone give him away, we’re crying out for quality and he’s quality imo.

We keep referring to seasons like 2017 or 2019.

we keep referring to That 5 goal game v Carlton in 2017 or that 4 goal game v the Dogs in 2015.

Great games... a long long time ago.

fact is, his body and his consistency just isn't there. Whatever you think Billings is, he isn't the answer.

An Entire new football department has come in and said if a deal can be done that we like. He can go and that seems to a second round pick with us contributing some salary (According to the Hsun).

The difference with Gresham, is that we have openly said we want to keep him.... at the right price. That even after his injuries, he has been a walk up 22 pick. We cant say that with Billings. Even with Greshams poor form, He was still in the 23 selected.

They are wildly different and i'm glad we have people making the calls who arent hung up on some great games or quarters from 5+ years ago.

Jack Billings isn't our future, and a player who has managed 29 games in the last 3 seasons - which are meant to be his prime isn't this saviour you seem to think he is.

 

[stavro#4]

Can’t see us getting better?
Pou
Caminiti
Windy
NAS
Owens
Sharman
All have had great years and huge development this year all should improve next year

A full year from king is another reason we can improve

Smashed by injuries this year

Another Pre season under RTB and a fully fit Steele is another reason we will improve

Your 1st post said we shouldn’t be expecting finals

Not expecting finals is delusional and a loser mentality that the club has had for the last decade and needs to rid itself of

I agree with all your points.

But within reason, i can accept missing finals to go forwards in 2025. (My expectations are that we play finals next year.)

 

[Veer Right]

Jack was suppose to have a bit of x-factor as a goal kicking half forward. He is now becoming a low impact and vanilla kick-mark utility who doesn’t win his own ball.. doesn’t really have a standout quality(his left foot is ordinary as they come), is already 28 and people still hope he’ll be our Toby Green.. Think the criticism towards him is fair enough, that can also be said about other players from that era, Dunstan, Acres, McCartin, Goddard, Mckenzie, Clark, Coffield.

Billings should give Lachie Whitfield a call and ask him how he turned things around. Similar players, similar injuries and both a bit maligned. Man has he come good! Playing very aggressive from the back and nailing his kicks like a star.

 

[bird_man]

I can’t see us getting better or worse next year.
So depending on injuries and draw I think we again are a 6th-12th team.
Any expectation above that with the age profile and lack of dept is delusional.

Well finishing 12th would he significantly worse than this year wouldn't it?

I'd spew if we went thar far backwards after this year.

I don't think it's delusional to think that we may improve slightly rather than fall back 6 spots on the ladder. If that isn't what we are demanding then we are in trouble.

 

[Yawkey way]

We keep referring to seasons like 2017 or 2019.

we keep referring to That 5 goal game v Carlton in 2017 or that 4 goal game v the Dogs in 2015.

Great games... a long long time ago.

fact is, his body and his consistency just isn't there. Whatever you think Billings is, he isn't the answer.

An Entire new football department has come in and said if a deal can be done that we like. He can go and that seems to a second round pick with us contributing some salary (According to the Hsun).

The difference with Gresham, is that we have openly said we want to keep him.... at the right price. That even after his injuries, he has been a walk up 22 pick. We cant say that with Billings. Even with Greshams poor form, He was still in the 23 selected.

They are wildly different and i'm glad we have people making the calls who arent hung up on some great games or quarters from 5+ years ago.

Jack Billings isn't our future, and a player who has managed 29 games in the last 3 seasons - which are meant to be his prime isn't this saviour you seem to think he is.

We‘ll see and once again you’re distorting the truth to suite your narrative. Billings was consistently amongst our best players until injury in 2021. I’m not referring to specific games or years except to point out his run with injury and the change in narrative nor have I ever referred to him as a saviour.

Now you’re adding in “ an entire football department has come in and said“ that’s the bloody herald sun which I have through work and don’t read because it’s fantasy