List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[L_W_P]

That it is

I reckon our first home game next season will be special.

It should be against Port.

We don't get them at home often, both teams sitting around each other on the ladder, the Naz story etc

Sell the joint out!

 

[thekizzler]

It should be against Port.

We don't get them at home often, both teams sitting around each other on the ladder, the Naz story etc

Sell the joint out!

We also haven't played the Giants in Melbourne in a home-and-away game since April 21, 2018.

 

[MordySaint]

Ryan's efforts the last few years have been deplorable.
Can't blame him but, it remains to be seen if he can get back in form.
Personally, I think he is cooked.

Mmmmm, not sure I agree.

Have a look at his stats... https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/L/Liam_Ryan.html

Still playing every game, he's just got a really awful midfield giving him the ball.

Of course he is low on confidence, the whole of the team is pretty deplorable. Amazing how quickly confidence can return though, a couple of good team bonding wins and a few inspiring moments and he is flying.

 

[L_W_P]

Ryan's efforts the last few years have been deplorable.
Can't blame him but, it remains to be seen if he can get back in form.
Personally, I think he is cooked.

He's had some good games but he's definitely a "Great player in a great team" type. He needs to be up and about, confidence high etc and he can have a huge impact.

He will be 29 next year.

Even if we only get 2-3 years out of him, maybe 50 games, he takes some attention off Higgins as a goal scorer.

Teams aren't going to respect the likes of Collard or Butler so another dangerous small adds to our mix.

 

[Desperate saint]

What I think has been important is letting him back himself in.

Let's face it, Nas has been a turnover merchant at times. Not everything has come together when he's gone for the big play. He keeps trying it on though, and it's starting to work more and more. I think the wrong coach may have tried to squash that a little and had him play within himself a bit.

Compare Nas's fearlessness to the like of a Jack Billings. A player with skills (yes I know Nas is on another level) but never really the courage to try and take a game by the scruff of the neck.

All the misses along the way have contributed to Nas's hits. I'm glad he was given the freedom to be fearless.

you are so Correct Billings had the tools but never took the game on-was that coaching or personality?

 

[holllywood]

The absolute elite rucks make a difference but more sides have won flags with rudimentary rucks and a good system recently.

TDK is too much for what is a project player. It's a huge gamble that is either genius or a long term financial millstone. He could genuinely become the best ruck in footy but if he doesn't we are still paying him as the best.

If they let the rucks run up TDK is nearly the best suited to it in the game. If they lose the bounce it might alter the dominance of some rucks and suit others.

Additionally, if they bring in last-possession OOB as being discussed, rucks become way less relevant again because there’ll be far fewer stoppages to impact....

 

[L_W_P]

you are so Correct Billings had the tools but never took the game on-was that coaching or personality?

Both?

I don't think JB had that killer instinct but we were in a phase of trying to fill the club with 'nice guys' after all the off field shit that happened during that 08-11 window.

I think a better coach and development team would have redeployed Billings as a wing/half back, set things up to feed him the ball in space, only ran him forward when it was clear he could get a shot off.

We kept trying to force him into a Stevie J/Paul Chapman role when he would have been a perfectly serviceable Ed Langdon type winger.

 

[billings2paddy]

He's had some good games but he's definitely a "Great player in a great team" type. He needs to be up and about, confidence high etc and he can have a huge impact.

He will be 29 next year.

Even if we only get 2-3 years out of him, maybe 50 games, he takes some attention off Higgins as a goal scorer.

Teams aren't going to respect the likes of Collard or Butler so another dangerous small adds to our mix.

Mmmmm, not sure I agree.

Have a look at his stats... https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/L/Liam_Ryan.html

Still playing every game, he's just got a really awful midfield giving him the ball.

Of course he is low on confidence, the whole of the team is pretty deplorable. Amazing how quickly confidence can return though, a couple of good team bonding wins and a few inspiring moments and he is flying.

We are talking about effort
It's non existant
Majority of eagles fans don't want him he has been out of form since 2021 and he is 30 next year.
We are not a top 4 team we have been 14th for majority of the year and are now 11th
Clearly we are better than the eagles
He is being pushed out the door.
There is a reason for that and it's evident watching him at optus.

 

[thekizzler]

Additionally, if they bring in last-possession OOB as being discussed, rucks become way less relevant again because there’ll be far fewer stoppages to impact....

This is actually a pretty good point that I've never really considered.

I do think that its effect is overstated a little bit though.

We are pretty much already at last-possession OOB being a free kick with the deliberate rules.

A disposal going directly out of bounds that isn't penalised as deliberate is not really happening that much.

The AFL believe there will be only be a couple of extra free kicks a match.

But it is true there will be a couple of less stoppages a game but not enough for it to be a thing.

 

[Saintbloke]

The whole argument that you don't need a quality ruck to win a flag is extremely simplistic - almost sheep-like.

It is true that teams have won the premiership with an average ruck being supported by an absolute top-shelf midfield.

Why not try to combine a top-shelf ruck and build a top-shelf midfield?

Not having our main rucks in Spider and Lazar for the GF in '97 probably meant the difference between winning and losing.

 

[CaptainRisky]

McLennan, Schoenmaker, Boyd, Carroll, Webster, Windhager, Heath, Byrnes, Cordy, Jones.

AFL Out of Contract Players in 2025

List of AFL players coming out of contract at the end of 2025.

www.footywire.com

With TDK, Aleer and 1-2 more coming in, we very well may delist nine players. Another massive turnover of players.

Windy is the only standout to sign IMO, I'm not getting the excitement about Shoey just because he can kick, I love Jimmy , has he got one more in him or does that impeded Hastie ? , Carroll has something we need and that's pace but seems to always get injured ( Worth one more year ) .
The rest can be moved on, seen enough of them to know they are taking us nowhere

 

[John2010362340]

Last 5 years in particular, there were only 3 players i worried about when playing WCE. Kennedy, Kelly and Ryan.

I think Ryan will be an astute acquisition for a team that lacks Xfactor forward of the ball.

 

[MordySaint]

Both?

I don't think JB had that killer instinct but we were in a phase of trying to fill the club with 'nice guys' after all the off field shit that happened during that 08-11 window.

I think a better coach and development team would have redeployed Billings as a wing/half back, set things up to feed him the ball in space, only ran him forward when it was clear he could get a shot off.

We kept trying to force him into a Stevie J/Paul Chapman role when he would have been a perfectly serviceable Ed Langdon type winger.

I think JB was just wrong place wrong time for his development. Certainly showed glimpses like the Bulldogs game, bit of a sliding doors moment there.... Bulldogs went one way and we went the other way.

We just lost all our leadership, had a really poor coaching and player development system in place. We were way too worried about taking risks or pushing the boundaries.

Really just a perfect storm for JB. He should have been a 250+ club player for us.

Things are different now, just seems like night and day. Our coaching, player development, team and club as a whole is completely different from the Richo/Seaford/Finnis era.

 

[The Punter]

Windy is the only standout to sign IMO, I'm not getting the excitement about Shoey just because he can kick, I love Jimmy , has he got one more in him or does that impeded Hastie ? , Carroll has something we need and that's pace but seems to always get injured ( Worth one more year ) .
The rest can be moved on, seen enough of them to know they are taking us nowhere

I totally agree. I would assess as:

No chance of being re-signed: Cordy, Boyd, McLennan
Very small chance: Jones, Heath
Some chance: Webster, Schoenmaker, Carroll, Byrnes
We want to re-sign them and work is underway: Windhager

But I can totally see Windhager getting sorted in the next week or so, the top three getting thanked for their service next week, and the other six being made to wait until after trade period. For example, if the TDK thing falls through, that might offer Heath a chance.

 

[Sully111]

you are so Correct Billings had the tools but never took the game on-was that coaching or personality?

My guess is a bit of both.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

To be a competitive side we need a balance of young old and a bunch somewhere in between. You can carry around 4 players under 50 games before it starts to hurt consistency and competitiveness.

Wilkie, Howard, Sinclair potentially Marshall, Hill, Wood, Macrae, Webster, Steele are the best 22 old guys.

Clarke, Higgins, King, Sharman, Byrnes, Henry, Hall, Wanganeen-Milera, LOC, Windhager, Owens and Hammer are our middle brigade. Wilson and Phillipou are already on 40ish games so should start to bump into that next rung soon.

Garcia, Travaglia, Dodson, Tauru, Boxshall, Hastie, Collard etc and new recruits will fill out the bottom rungs.

Add Aleer, TDK, Ryan etc and we are starting to fatten out a decent best 22. The spots for youth are going to thin out a bit if we are going for finals.

If Ryan was still known as a match winner his age would be fine, but he is not. In the past couple of years he has kicked 35 : 33 @ 50% accuracy, surely we already have enough players who are unreliable in front of goals. Saints supporters see players from other clubs wanting to come to the club and get stars in their eyes, because they remember how good they were 5 or 6 years ago and the fact he takes a decent mark once a season.

The next obvious question is there are miriad of mid sized players in the state leagues who are consistently kicking bags of goals why not try something different rather than a burnt out small forward who doesnt apply that much pressure. Surely we can find a natural goal kicking midsized player that is actually better value than playing Wilson, Phillipou and Henry forward. They who offer very little in the way scoring power and are only sitting there because the club wants to get games into them. Even Owens as strong as he is forward his goal kicking is a liability.

Yes we are a young list but lets not get sucked into thinking these nearly 30yo's are going to make a significant difference. Not one 'quick fix' has ever been a sucess at St Kilda and its not about the start now!

Boyd was last years years example of a quick fix, we grabbed him thinking he would do something when really he is as I was suggesting a complete spud. We gave up a list spot for a spud in one of the strongest draft years in a long time. You only have to look at the other SSP and MSD draft players taken around the league to see how poor that decision was. Ryan is far from a spud but he is another short term fix, they simply dont work!

 

[Saint Shags]

Macrae wasn't really designed to move us up the ladder. He was recruited to help replace the unfortunate retirement of Brad Crouch and help sustain our midfield performance while the likes of Garcia, Boxhall and Phillipou come on.

So we knew a year out from getting Macrae that Crouch was done?
Didn't seem that way from the outside.
It may have turned out that way, but I would have thought that at the beginning of 2024 they wanted Macrae in with Crouch. It was just unfortunate that Crouch's body went to crap.

 

[Leap of Faith]

Not having our main rucks in Spider and Lazar for the GF in '97 probably meant the difference between winning and losing.

And Nicky Winmar’ dad and Stewie Loewe’s family tragedy

 

[Leap of Faith]

I totally agree. I would assess as:

No chance of being re-signed: Cordy, Boyd, McLennan
Very small chance: Jones, Heath
Some chance: Webster, Schoenmaker, Carroll, Byrnes
We want to re-sign them and work is underway: Windhager

But I can totally see Windhager getting sorted in the next week or so, the top three getting thanked for their service next week, and the other six being made to wait until after trade period. For example, if the TDK thing falls through, that might offer Heath a chance.

Seriously hope we don’t have Z.Jones on the list next year. Enough already.

 

[stavro#4]

Recommend everyone go onto the afl app and watch Liam Ryan

1

Liam Ryan

Age

29

Ht

181cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

2.7

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

1.3

5star

D

9.9

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.6

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

11.4

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.6

5star

’s specific highlights v Adelaide 2 weeks ago.

Still has the hops. Still has 50+m goal kicking range. Still has IQ to draw frees from panicking defenders.

 

[thekizzler]

Boyd was last years years example of a quick fix, we grabbed him thinking he would do something when really he is as I was suggesting a complete spud. We gave up a list spot for a spud in one of the strongest draft years in a long time. You only have to look at the other SSP and MSD draft players taken around the league to see how poor that decision was. Ryan is far from a spud but he is another short term fix, they simply dont work!

No, we did not, champ. No one thought he would be star.

Boy oh boy.

We picked Boyd to be backup if Rowan Marshall went down, while Heath, Keeler and Dodson weren't ready and we were waiting for De Koning.

Rowan Marshall has played every game in 2025.

Boyd served his purpose as cheap as chips insurance and we move on.

It's not a list management mistake just because it does not fit your agenda. I cannot make that more clear.

 

[Minga]

If he was known still to be a match winner his age would be fine, but he is not. In the past couple of years he has kicked 35 : 33 @ 50% accuracy, surely we already have enough players who are unreliable in front of goals. Saints supporters see players from other clubs wanting to come to the club and get stars in their eyes, because they remember how good they were 5 or 6 years ago and the fact he takes a decent mark once a season.

The next obvious question is there are miriad of mid sized players in the state laegues who are consistently kicking bags of goals why not try something different rather than a burnt out small forward who doesnt apply that much pressure. Surely we can find a natural goal kicking midsized player that is actually better value than playing Wilson, Phillipou and Henry forward. They who offer very little in the way scoring power and are only sitting there because the club wants to get games into them. Even Owens as strong as he is forward his goal kicking is a liability.

Yes we are a young list but lets not get sucked into thinking these nearly 30yo's are going to make a significant difference. Not one 'quick fix' has ever been a sucess at St Kilda and its not about the start now!

yeh but saints fans aren't the ones in list management. if theyre targeting Ryan, there'd be a good reason for it. yes he may not be a quick fix on his own, but even one different cog in the machine can start to make everything work a bit better. Is max king a quick fix? doubt it. Would we have won more games with him in the side this year? probably.

Who knows the impact Ryan could have in the forward line, as a senior player who was a key part of a GF win, as a leader in the first nations community? How many potted Wood? And now how many are praising him as a component as to why Nas has thrived at the Saints?

Some keep potting them, but the current admin have been nothing but solid (if not great) so far. and as i have said numerously, judge sos and co. after the fact, but otherwise you have to let them cook or else what are we even doing?

it takes risks to win flags, they won't always succeed and most teams fail, but you've gotta have a strategy and commit to it. And it seems they're commiting to a tilt whilst we have Steele/Sincs/Wilkie/Marshall whilst also bringing through our under 18-25s group in what will a finals competing culture.

for the right price, Ryan makes sense, and I'd be excited to see him and TDK in the side next year personally.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Recommend everyone go onto the afl app and watch Liam Ryan’s specific highlights v Adelaide 2 weeks ago.

Still has the hops. Still has 50+m goal kicking range. Still has IQ to draw frees from panicking defenders.

1-2 years out of player how does that justify the move. Its just lazy recruiting and talent identification in my view. FFS Geelong grabbed Mannagh out of Werribee he is twice the value of player as Ryan in my view.

 

[billings2paddy]

Last 5 years in particular, there were only 3 players i worried about when playing WCE. Kennedy, Kelly and Ryan.

I think Ryan will be an astute acquisition for a team that lacks Xfactor forward of the ball.

You mean 5 or 6 years ago?

 

[billings2paddy]

If Ryan was still known as a match winner his age would be fine, but he is not. In the past couple of years he has kicked 35 : 33 @ 50% accuracy, surely we already have enough players who are unreliable in front of goals. Saints supporters see players from other clubs wanting to come to the club and get stars in their eyes, because they remember how good they were 5 or 6 years ago and the fact he takes a decent mark once a season.

The next obvious question is there are miriad of mid sized players in the state leagues who are consistently kicking bags of goals why not try something different rather than a burnt out small forward who doesnt apply that much pressure. Surely we can find a natural goal kicking midsized player that is actually better value than playing Wilson, Phillipou and Henry forward. They who offer very little in the way scoring power and are only sitting there because the club wants to get games into them. Even Owens as strong as he is forward his goal kicking is a liability.

Yes we are a young list but lets not get sucked into thinking these nearly 30yo's are going to make a significant difference. Not one 'quick fix' has ever been a sucess at St Kilda and its not about the start now!

Boyd was last years years example of a quick fix, we grabbed him thinking he would do something when really he is as I was suggesting a complete spud. We gave up a list spot for a spud in one of the strongest draft years in a long time. You only have to look at the other SSP and MSD draft players taken around the league to see how poor that decision was. Ryan is far from a spud but he is another short term fix, they simply dont work!

He's not 2020 24 yr old Liam Ryan