List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[phantom13]

Look we could both be wrong and all these players are second round picks etc.

But it’s looking more and more like they will need the currency from a Marshall or Steele.
Unless Dow breaks into the best 22 next year. It looks like he will be cut at the end of the season.

Hit the draft again next year and replenish the youth that develops underneath

Could be, even being saints nuffy Flanders and C-Mac are both worth firsts.

I think MY ideal would be Roma gets us a first. We use that for Flanders and retain our first for the draft. Retain next years.

If Steele becomes C-Mac then i can probablyt live with it but i think id rather keep Steele.

In any event losing all our firsts and not getting any in would be a bad result IMO. Even if we get Flanders and C-Mac.

Agree on Dow, no issue with keeping him and in reality if we dumped him and got nothing else in (Flanders and C-Mac fall over) then wed be low on depth again.

 

[gringo2011]

Our system fell apart moving Enright out of there & putting Jarrod Rivers in there didn't help either we weren't as tight or measly as previous years.

Battle going and not being replaced along with Howard going down meant we had a really ordinary and young tall back set up. Hammer off zero training, Wilkie trying to play for three and a combination of Webster, Stocker, Sincs, LOC and Nas for smalls/rebound.

That back six looked really tight last year and easily our best line. This year it looked patched up.

 

[gringo2011]

What exactly is the risk here?
It’s 1 maybe 2 free agent deals.

And trades we can get done with our current hand or at worst including Marshall.

There is little risk beyond 2027

The risk is that you lock up a lot of future list moves by pushing the cap tight and if you move on favourite sons for ring-ins who don't perform you invite heavy scrutiny and look like a rabble.

This is pushing all the problems out until 2027 when a lot of players come out of contract and the big contracts start to bite.

 

[phantom13]

I want. Him Flanders Ryan TDK Jsos.

My expectations would probably be sky high in all honesty for next season.

Im not yucking your yum but "a-grader"...

Hes played 12 games this year... I dont think hes been injured for all the games hes missed.

In those 12 games he had one 30 touch game, didnt break 21 in any other game.

All this "superstar hawks" team stuff. They finished 8th and had 2 aa squad members (and most think Battle was very lucky to get in).

Unless C-Mac is currently injured (and he might be for all i know) the Mid/Depth in the 23 from their game on the weekend is as follows.

Newcombe, Worpel, Ward, Scrimshaw, Nash, McDonald.

To be clear, i dont mind C-Mac looks a lovely player who is developing nicely but "a-grade" is ****ing ridiculous. The media is so ****ing hot for the Hawks theyd try to convince us that every player on their list is worth a first.

 

[stavro#4]

The risk is that you lock up a lot of future list moves by pushing the cap tight and if you move on favourite sons for ring-ins who don't perform you invite heavy scrutiny and look like a rabble.

This is pushing all the problems out until 2027 when a lot of players come out of contract and the big contracts start to bite.

You’re locking yourself out of the trade market for significant moves for 1 trade period. But you’re active at the draft instead.

It actually appears very sound

 

[stavro#4]

Im not yucking your yum but "a-grader"...

Hes played 12 games this year... I dont think hes been injured for all the games hes missed.

In those 12 games he had one 30 touch game, didnt break 21 in any other game.

All this "superstar hawks" team stuff. They finished 8th and had 2 aa squad members (and most think Battle was very lucky to get in).

Unless C-Mac is currently injured (and he might be for all i know) the Mid/Depth in the 23 from their game on the weekend is as follows.

Newcombe, Worpel, Ward, Scrimshaw, Nash, McDonald.

To be clear, i dont mind C-Mac looks a lovely player who is developing nicely but "a-grade" is ****ing ridiculous. The media is so ****ing hot for the Hawks theyd try to convince us that every player on their list is worth a first.

I’m not calling him an A grader.

But I definitely see the potential. I love the kicking. It would be like have 2 halls and you add Flyin Ryan to that

 

[gringo2011]

So updating this we can now add C-Mac (1st rounder).

IMO all of them is too much recycled change and likely for very little if any improvement.

TDK is done, IMO Roma has to be traded out (and ideally if we can use the Roma pick on Flanders then Roma becomes Flanders and TDK, thats a win)
One of JSOS OR Aleer, not both (noting Aleer makes more sense to me strcuturally and athletically but JSOS is free)
Ryan only if its a 3rd rounder, if its anymore we should walk (noting we dont have a second rounder this year anyway)
C-Mac is a no, unless we can get him for a future second, a first given Windy, Garcia, Boxxy etc etc hes not worth it.

I worry about what bringing 6 guys who will all expect to be starting 22 does for the culture and core group of kids weve got now (and yeh i know competition for spots etc etc but its a bit of a slap in the face to the likes of Garcia and Boxxy and co to trade a first round pick for a guy who will take their spots in spite of showing nothing more than any of them).

I hope we would walk from C-Mac and Ryan if the asking price is too high as a minimum.

It is pretty cool to actually be a club with some buzz though, been a long time.

CMac is basically stepping out of an ordinary draft to bring in a partially developed player. Ryan, Flanders, TDK and JSOS are going to be expected to perform at a ready made standard. Aleer and CMac are projects.

 

[phantom13]

I’m not calling him an A grader.

But I definitely see the potential. I love the kicking. It would be like have 2 halls and you add Flyin Ryan to that

No but Lloyd did.

My criticism isnt of you, its of the media glaze on the hawks and their players.

They finished 8th with 2 AA squad members (and only 1 real chance). The ****ing mustard on that clip would make a northern englishman gag.

 

[sauce_head]

The risk is that you lock up a lot of future list moves by pushing the cap tight and if you move on favourite sons for ring-ins who don't perform you invite heavy scrutiny and look like a rabble.

This is pushing all the problems out until 2027 when a lot of players come out of contract and the big contracts start to bite.

The optimist in me says that in 2027 we have mild success but big success is obvious, and they players reduce their ask for the greater good. You never know!

 

[phantom13]

You’re locking yourself out of the trade market for significant moves for 1 trade period. But you’re active at the draft instead.

It actually appears very sound

There is inherent risk in either strategy.

We know Lyon would know the need for results before 27 to justify an extension, im not suggestiong hed make short terms moves for his own benefit but theres no question were at high risk/high reward point if we go all in on the rumored trades from this year.

I dont mind it (albeit its not my preference) but lets not pretend it doesnt present a massive potential downside too.

 

[gringo2011]

Could be, even being saints nuffy Flanders and C-Mac are both worth firsts.

I think MY ideal would be Roma gets us a first. We use that for Flanders and retain our first for the draft. Retain next years.

If Steele becomes C-Mac then i can probablyt live with it but i think id rather keep Steele.

In any event losing all our firsts and not getting any in would be a bad result IMO. Even if we get Flanders and C-Mac.

Agree on Dow, no issue with keeping him and in reality if we dumped him and got nothing else in (Flanders and C-Mac fall over) then wed be low on depth again.

Dow is perfect as a depth player.

 

[sauce_head]

No but Lloyd did.

My criticism isnt of you, its of the media glaze on the hawks and their players.

They finished 8th with 2 AA squad members (and only 1 real chance). The ****ing mustard on that clip would make a northern englishman gag.

Such a shame the dogs could nit have gotten one more win and pushed the family planning club to 9th.

 

[phantom13]

The optimist in me says that in 2027 we have mild success but big success is obvious, and they players reduce their ask for the greater good. You never know!

This has to be a part of it.

Nas will need to stay for less etc etc. Hence the risk Gringo is pointing out (also noting that just doing the status quo of one FA, one trade and hit the draft is also a risk)

 

[gringo2011]

The optimist in me says that in 2027 we have mild success but big success is obvious, and they players reduce their ask for the greater good. You never know!

That's the hope. You create momentum and players want to come for the ride.

 

[gringo2011]

There is inherent risk in either strategy.

We know Lyon would know the need for results before 27 to justify an extension, im not suggestiong hed make short terms moves for his own benefit but theres no question were at high risk/high reward point if we go all in on the rumored trades from this year.

I dont mind it (albeit its not my preference) but lets not pretend it doesnt present a massive potential downside too.

We have the build pretty much done and are at the point of bringing in players. My only issue is long term crippling contracts limiting future moves.

 

[The Punter]

MacKenzie might be a very good player, but if he were "A-Grade", he'd be getting a game ahead of some very serviceable but unspectacular Hawthorn mids.

 

[PJays]

There is little risk beyond 2027

We're signing TDK until 2033 (when TDK will be 34 that July!)

And talking about signing Ryan and Aleer until 2029 (when Ryan will be almost 33)

And these won't exactly be cheap-as-chips deals

How can anyone suggest little risk past 2027?

Let's be clear- these are "win now" moves. They're the type of moves a club makes when they believe they're on the verge of contending for a flag.

But they carry obvious long-term risks, which Gringo succinctly summarised.

 

[Yawkey way]

CMac is basically stepping out of an ordinary draft to bring in a partially developed player. Ryan, Flanders, TDK and JSOS are going to be expected to perform at a ready made standard. Aleer and CMac are projects.

CMac is still developing but it’s an is he a good player or will he be a star debate.

Aleer is a maybe he’s going to be a player or maybe he’ll be a vfl backup. If we landed Silvagni surely Aleer doesn’t happen.

Don’t know if it’s been discussed but if Marshall is traded does that mean Heath stays ?.

 

[Red White Black]

Wtf has happened to Kane Kornes? At the 8 min mark he's stated if Max King

Multiple players found. Use birthday to differentiate. eg [PLAYERCARD="23/11/1962"]Joe Smith[/PLAYERCARD]

can play 20 games next year we're playing finals

First Up: Why Blues should trade Walsh, star Demon who has 'let his club down'

Sarah Olle and Kane Cornes unpack the big issues from the round of footy

www.afl.com.au

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Nearly Done deal-TDK

Interested in;

Aleer
Fincher
Flanders
Jsos
McKenzie
Ryan
Jackson Voss

 

[stavro#4]

There is inherent risk in either strategy.

We know Lyon would know the need for results before 27 to justify an extension, im not suggestiong hed make short terms moves for his own benefit but theres no question were at high risk/high reward point if we go all in on the rumored trades from this year.

I dont mind it (albeit its not my preference) but lets not pretend it doesnt present a massive potential downside too.

We're signing TDK until 2033 (when TDK will be 34 that July!)

And talking about signing Ryan and Aleer until 2029 (when Ryan will be almost 33)

And these won't exactly be cheap-as-chips deals

How can anyone suggest little risk past 2027?

Let's be clear- these are "win now" moves. They're the type of moves a club makes when they believe they're on the verge of contending for a flag.

But they carry obvious long-term risks, which Gringo succinctly summarised.

Just easier to reply to you both. More related toPjay

We are either successful in the NAS era. Or we aren’t and he goes at the end of 2027.

Makes little difference having TDK at that point. We need to pay someone and we won’t be getting the quality of nas.

There is little risk. Because it’s likely we are shit anyway without him.

This is aggressive and having a crack. By doing this we MAY turn into a finals contender. We might not, but as it stands and hoping for internal growth - we aren’t contenders and are a fair way off the pack.

 

[PJays]

Wtf has happened to Kane Kornes? At the 8 min mark he's stated if Max King can play 20 games next year we're playing finals

First Up: Why Blues should trade Walsh, star Demon who has 'let his club down'

Sarah Olle and Kane Cornes unpack the big issues from the round of footy

www.afl.com.au

He said our finals chances hinge on King and if he plays 20 games we're a "really good shot"

He also said he "really likes what the Saints have done this off-season" then immediately followed up saying he wouldn't pay what we'll pay TDK. Bit of a contradiction.

But he's right about our prospects. If King does play 20, and we have a reasonable injury run elsewhere, I'll be disappointed if we don't play finals.

I reckon we would've won 11 or 12 this year with a fit-and- firing King (extra 2 or 3). Add youth improvement, FAs and extra depth and that should be enough for 13 or 14 or more (which wasn't finals this year, but any other year would've made finals).

 

[PJays]

We are either successful in the NAS era. Or we aren’t and he goes at the end of 2027.

Makes little difference having TDK at that point. We need to pay someone and we won’t be getting the quality of nas.

I'm glad you stated this explicitly. Thank you.

This thought lies implicit within many posts here lately.

It's a ridiculous assumption I reckon.

Nas is 22. He'll be 24 in 2027. What we need to do by 2027 is demonstrate we're well placed long-term.

We shouldn't be rushing to achieve sugar-hit finals placings in 2026 and 2027.

What this year taught us was no-one knows what Nas is thinking.

But I love how we've immediately transitioned from....

"family is what will take him home, not money or anything else"

into

"we must achieve immediate success or he'll leave".

 

[phantom13]

Just easier to reply to you both. More related toPjay

We are either successful in the NAS era. Or we aren’t and he goes at the end of 2027.

Makes little difference having TDK at that point. We need to pay someone and we won’t be getting the quality of nas.

There is little risk. Because it’s likely we are shit anyway without him.

This is aggressive and having a crack. By doing this we MAY turn into a finals contender. We might not, but as it stands and hoping for internal growth - we aren’t contenders and are a fair way off the pack.

IM not sure i follow here... I agree with the win now mentality for Nas (and Wilkie and Sincs) I dont really agree that this approach isnt risky.

We werent a mile off it this year without King and Pou and were all hot on the kids coming through BUT then we also wanna push them into the twos for guys who might be slightly better now (noting C-Mac in particular has stats worse than Windy and on par with Garcia who is a year younger this year).

The agressive nature of the trade involvement right now has to be risky, thats just the nature of being agressive (and that risk might be in losing players, ****ing contract structre whatever).

Again, im not anti the agression but it does have a risk (so does doing **** all)

 

[SinCitySainter]

Dow is perfect as a depth player.

Not really as he is never fit , the perfect depth player needs to be able to come in.