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List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion

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If the Lions were trying to send a message to other Lions players coming out of contract "be careful" as we will play hardball no matter you service.
Not sure that's the message you want to send when the club and players have been a united team for quite a few years now.
i highly doubt the Lions would be using trade time to send a message to players. We clearly have a strong relationship with our players - so any messaging is done behind closed doors.

The “message” is to player managers and other clubs (if there is a message at all). If an opposition club wants to poach our players, then they need to come up with a trade deal that we find equitable.
 
I think you aren’t comprehending what I’m alluding to. I have not even read any posts just providing my 2c. I’m taking this from the players POV and the way the clubs have managed this process. I don’t really give a **** about picks and fair value. I care that neither party could come to an agreement.

Now Cal and his family are unreasonably stressed. I get that he most likely gets to Crows but it’s unnecessary.

Apparently we made 3 offers for Cal, which the Crows rejected.

One offer which the Crows shouldn’t have accepted and which overvalued Cal.

One offer which they should have accepted and which was fair value for both parties.

One offer which they should have accepted and which seemed like our last ditch effort to get something even if it wasn’t ideal for us.

The prevailing negative sentiment against the lions appears to be that Adelaide made an offer and therefore we should have accepted that offer. Doesn’t matter what that offer was we should have just accepted it.

The onus isn’t on the Lions to just accept whatever Adelaide is willing to offer.

If I was Cal I’d be disappointed in both clubs but for Adelaide not to budge from what was essentially a junk offer, I don’t know how you could be seething at the lions.
 
i highly doubt the Lions would be using trade time to send a message to players. We clearly have a strong relationship with our players - so any messaging is done behind closed doors.

The “message” is to player managers and other clubs (if there is a message at all). If an opposition club wants to poach our players, then they need to come up with a trade deal that we find equitable.
See my view is when an opposition wants to "poach" our players they would be players still under contract.
I would class that as poaching, and it happens every year and clubs usually pay a big price for good players.

My personal view is when players contracts expire, they should be free to go anywhere.
This includes the restricted/unrestricted players.
Clubs would just lose players and gain players just like jobs in the real world
It won't happen in my lifetime as the AFL just wants to fill in space with news and drama during the off season

I think players OOC don't really have a strong hand if the club would like to keep them on a lower contract than they can get elsewhere.
Existing clubs should be able to match or increase the offer. The player then chooses, but no trade needed if they move.

It is a job after all. I wonder if someone will test the courts soon, even though there is a player's agreement.

We also would not have all this rubbish (below image) to sort through and that is just the 1st round.
It should be every club gets one pick each round depending on where they finish.
The AFL can throw in compensation picks from time to time if a club is stuck down the bottom just like they do now.
F/S, Academy, NGA's can stay with a formula, or the AFL funds them all and everyone just goes into the draft with all the other kids

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Like the vast majority, I am fully supportive of the club’s approach to not trade Cal. It wasn’t that long ago that such was the state of our club we were forced/were desperate enough to accept watered down picks for players we’d only recently selected in the 1st round.

We’ve shown we can’t be held over a barrel any longer, and clubs will think twice before they try lure a player of ours without the draft capital to hand over that reflects their ability. It should serve as a cautionary example for anyone trying to sign Bailey, Lohmann etc over the coming years.

Very poor by the Crows, and regardless of the Ah Chee trade, they did nothing to address their list deficiencies. With a harder draw next year, I’d expect a fairly sobering recalibration of where they are at in their premiership aspirations.
 
If I was Cal I’d be disappointed in both clubs but for Adelaide not to budge from what was essentially a junk offer, I don’t know how you could be seething at the lions.
That's my understanding of the situation too. They both haggled over the trade offers for the entire trade period but Adelaide didn't never went and got other picks elsewhere in pick swaos, like Hawthorn & Collingwood & Carlton did, to get the trade done for Cal.
 
i highly doubt the Lions would be using trade time to send a message to players. We clearly have a strong relationship with our players - so any messaging is done behind closed doors.

The “message” is to player managers and other clubs (if there is a message at all). If an opposition club wants to poach our players, then they need to come up with a trade deal that we find equitable.
A bit full of myself replying to my own post (next i’ll be talking in the 3rd person…), but listen to the full chat with Dom Ambrosio here:

About halfway in he is questioned about “the message to the rest of the competition”. He explains it very well… no message, just doing what’s best for the footy club. The cost of losing Cal for nothing isn’t significantly different compared to the offer from Adelaide.
A good backhander to Adelaide at the end about courting a player but the not getting the deal done (as compared to Brisbane who always got the deal done because we owed it to the player).

Now my thought regarding losing Cal for nothing: With the proposed changes to the f/s and bidding system picks in the late 30’s onwards really lose their trade value from next year (unless it’s a deep draft). Picks at the top end are way more valuable - so this is the last draft where we will see clubs trading our their first for a handful of picks at the backend. There’s little point accumulating those future picks because in the end we’ll be stuck with them. Further, even trading surplus picks next year into 2027 will be a loss. The “natural” round-2 in 2027 will start at pick 24, round-3 at pick 43, before any FA compo or other bonuses get thrown in. Round-1 in 2027 could end in the early 30’s!
 
There is a conventional understanding among list managers that the PSD steal (and even threats to use it) is dirty pool.

Adelaide have now shown three times that they are willing to stoop to that level (Dawson, Hately and Ah Chee), so list managers will now know that it’s justified to turn the tables on the Crows in the future. That’s the downside of breaking a code… you are no longer protected by it.

It’s particularly dangerous for a club that is looking like being high up the ladder in the short-to-medium term. There are going to be plenty of clubs ahead of them in the PSD for the foreseeable future and historically the Crows are more of a feeder club than a destination club. They are going to be put over a barrel time and time again.

So in addition to making Ah Chee’s transition unpleasant and putting a stain on his exit from a club he had a wonderful legacy at, they’ve also exposed their own neck.
 
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See my view is when an opposition wants to "poach" our players they would be players still under contract.
I would class that as poaching, and it happens every year and clubs usually pay a big price for good players.

My personal view is when players contracts expire, they should be free to go anywhere.
This includes the restricted/unrestricted players.
Clubs would just lose players and gain players just like jobs in the real world
It won't happen in my lifetime as the AFL just wants to fill in space with news and drama during the off season

I think players OOC don't really have a strong hand if the club would like to keep them on a lower contract than they can get elsewhere.
Existing clubs should be able to match or increase the offer. The player then chooses, but no trade needed if they move.

It is a job after all. I wonder if someone will test the courts soon, even though there is a player's agreement.

We also would not have all this rubbish (below image) to sort through and that is just the 1st round.
It should be every club gets one pick each round depending on where they finish.
The AFL can throw in compensation picks from time to time if a club is stuck down the bottom just like they do now.
F/S, Academy, NGA's can stay with a formula, or the AFL funds them all and everyone just goes into the draft with all the other kids

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Your view and the AFL contract rules are 2 different things though. When a player signs an afl contract with a club, then that club holds the rights to that player until the player reaches free agency - and this is the situation with Cal. This is to give the club who made the initial investment in a player some protection against a player signing for 2-years of development, then walking out where-ever they want.

It won’t go to court - the AFL is a monopoly industry and these are the conditions every player agrees to when they sign an AFL contract.
 
Essendon could of really set themselves for the future but instead they held onto a 30 year old Zach Merrett. Proper mental IMO
Not sure Hawthorn's offer really set anyone up for the future because those future first round picks are going to be fairly late - if Merrett really wanted out he should've asked to be traded to any top 12 club that could make the best offer rather than picking a single club. In a vacuum Essendon probably should've traded Merrett though.
 
I hope it all works out for Cal as a whole lot of people other than him have been and are now in control of his future and his whole family are in limbo.

I really think the anti-lions sentiment is very harsh. If teams should just take whatever then every team will say here is a F4 - I know they are worth more but we will get them in the PSD.

Given there are at least rumours of 3 options from the lions in the trade it shows Brisbane was trying to negotiate - Adelaide just said this is it take it or we march him - the last hour token F3 is as many have identified irrelevant.

Compare this to other trades done - Melbourne wanted a 20s pick for McVee - Fremantle made it happen by sliding a bit. Richmond got 38 for Young - no disrespect intended but this is the same pick level as Adelaide were offering for Ah Chee but Ah Chee is a much more accomplished and complete player. Connor Budarick pick 37 and token return pick - again not in the same class as Ah Chee. This was never a respectable trade proposition.

It is very disappointing it wasn't sorted - I do believe Adelaide could have done 2026 2 and 2027 2 - not what Brisbane wanted but a better result for all.

The manager must have known what both parties wanted - does this mean he values Cal Ah Chee at the same value as Connor Budarick and Tylar Young - apparently he does?
 

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I agree with what others have said if my work contract up I just leave and go somewhere else.
To get to a AFL club you can do it via draft, delisted players or trade.

Like free agency out of contract players want to move for opportunity, family, play finals or $$$. Or Combo

AFL can come up with some calculation where age, games played, finals, how long contact, B&F placings and $$$
Then the club wanting the player then has to pay that many points.
No Compo.

If that came back said Cal worth x points up to Crows to do the deal.
Otherwise you go back in the draft and other teams can draft you.
No funny buggers front loading contracts.

Same as Allen and Draper we should have give our first to Eagles and second to Bombers.
Like we traded for Starc.

Players have too much say now..
Feel sorry for Cal in all of this.. I think Crows was take our crap offer or we do PSD.
 
I wonder if the managers would try to get more equitable deals if there was a rule that if a player is traded for a 2nd round pick the manager can only make a certain capped amount no matter what the contract value actually is, if the best the trade is worth is a 3rd or 4th etc then the manager receives less and less as a maximum as the trade worth? Won't ever happen but the player agents seem to often be the cause of some of the tricky situations in the trade period then don't really seem accountable to anyone in particular.
 
The manager must have known what both parties wanted - does this mean he values Cal Ah Chee at the same value as Connor Budarick and Tylar Young - apparently he does?
Must have known or should have known?

Does he have any previous form as a skilful (or even competent) negotiator or is this the first time he has a more complicated situation in his portfolio?

We know he knew what Adelaide wanted (and someone alluded to Adelaide connections earlier in the thread) and we can hope he know what Cal wanted.

Do we know if he was treating Brisbane as an entity with Agency or was he assuming we were an NPC in the trade?
 
A bit full of myself replying to my own post (next i’ll be talking in the 3rd person…), but listen to the full chat with Dom Ambrosio here:

About halfway in he is questioned about “the message to the rest of the competition”. He explains it very well… no message, just doing what’s best for the footy club. The cost of losing Cal for nothing isn’t significantly different compared to the offer from Adelaide.
A good backhander to Adelaide at the end about courting a player but the not getting the deal done (as compared to Brisbane who always got the deal done because we owed it to the player).

Now my thought regarding losing Cal for nothing: With the proposed changes to the f/s and bidding system picks in the late 30’s onwards really lose their trade value from next year (unless it’s a deep draft). Picks at the top end are way more valuable - so this is the last draft where we will see clubs trading our their first for a handful of picks at the backend. There’s little point accumulating those future picks because in the end we’ll be stuck with them. Further, even trading surplus picks next year into 2027 will be a loss. The “natural” round-2 in 2027 will start at pick 24, round-3 at pick 43, before any FA compo or other bonuses get thrown in. Round-1 in 2027 could end in the early 30’s!
Dom is so well spoken there - we're incredibly lucky to have someone of his caliber watching over our list build.

I'm not fussed with what's happening with Ah Chee. We get nothing for him but Adelaide weren't offering much to begin with so it's not a terrible outcome all things considered. Some of the proposed trades we put forward seem pretty reasonable but I'm not surprised they were all refused given Adelaide have recent history in bending clubs over for players.
 
There's a lot of talk of academies by Adelaide fans, however I'm quite sure our (equal) second highest ever selection from our academy currently plays for them and finished fourth in their B&F.

Keaysy is a much better player than cal, as cal has never had a top 10 BnF finish!
 

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Not sure Hawthorn's offer really set anyone up for the future because those future first round picks are going to be fairly late - if Merrett really wanted out he should've asked to be traded to any top 12 club that could make the best offer rather than picking a single club. In a vacuum Essendon probably should've traded Merrett though.
I think 10 and 22 this year coupled with their current picks gives them a good hand to get osme good talent into their club prior to the Tassie inclusion. Now they've got a 30 year old disgruntled former captain to deal with instead of additional talent to help them build something positive moving forward.
 
There is a conventional understanding among list managers that the PSD steal (and even threats to use it) is dirty pool.

Adelaide have now shown three times that they are willing to stoop to that level (Dawson, Hately and Ah Chee), so list managers will now know that it’s justified to turn the tables on the Crows in the future. That’s the downside of breaking a code… you are no longer protected by it.

It’s particularly dangerous for a club that is looking like being high up the ladder in the short-to-medium term. There are going to be plenty of clubs ahead of them in the PSD for the foreseeable future and historically the Crows are more of a feeder club than a destination club. They are going to be put over a barrel time and time again.

So in addition to making Ah Chee’s transition unpleasant and putting a stain on his exit from a club he had a wonderful legacy at, they’ve also exposed their own neck.

The bit that is unpalatable to me is that Adelaide seem to be trying to narrative the whole thing with the manager as being disappointed in Brisbane for not just accepting the offer. And trying to steer away from their junk offer and PSD threat.

Borderline a call from Sam to whoever is the Crows CEO to ask for a bit of professional etiquette.
 
Apparently we made 3 offers for Cal, which the Crows rejected.

One offer which the Crows shouldn’t have accepted and which overvalued Cal.

One offer which they should have accepted and which was fair value for both parties.

One offer which they should have accepted and which seemed like our last ditch effort to get something even if it wasn’t ideal for us.

The prevailing negative sentiment against the lions appears to be that Adelaide made an offer and therefore we should have accepted that offer. Doesn’t matter what that offer was we should have just accepted it.

The onus isn’t on the Lions to just accept whatever Adelaide is willing to offer.

If I was Cal I’d be disappointed in both clubs but for Adelaide not to budge from what was essentially a junk offer, I don’t know how you could be seething at the lions.
If you cared enough, you’d have followed up my other posts which clearly note that the Crows were more at fault than the Lions. Where have I said the Lions were solely responsible for this debacle?
 
If you cared enough, you’d have followed up my other posts which clearly note that the Crows were more at fault than the Lions. Where have I said the Lions were solely responsible for this debacle?

I didn’t make claims that you said anything. I was just further the discussion.

Not everything is a fight that you have to shadow box to defend old boy.
 

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