List Mgmt. 2025 List Management II 📃

[Aphrodite]

 

[OldBlueFan]

Not for an overinflated salary and tenure based on about 8 games of footy over the last 2 1/2 years

Not sure why you've quoted my post, it doesn't mention games ...

 

[gbatman]

Apparently Nick Haynes has been vocal lately about lack of structure and game style. We practice things so much less than they did at GWS

Be great to hear more of his opinion and differences

It's great having people observe us from other clubs.

We are a very closed environment. Hardly any incoming coaches in since Voss and his group. Noting coming in from real successful clubs, coaches or players. We are a middle road club with coaches and players from other middle road clubs, very closed environment. GWS aren't a middle road club, they are a but better than that so it's interesting to hear. Wright is also not from a middle road club.

Perhaps a lot of comparing ourselves to clubs at our level and thinking all is good.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Our 3rd, 4th and 5th most potent goal kickers last year were Owies, Kennedy and Martin. We went the Malthouse strategy of delisting/trading all our forward threats. Combine that with a pre-season focusing on defence and you have a formula for a poor offensive conversion.

How did you come up with that? Owies was third behind Charlie and Harry, but Kennedy was about 6th and Martin kicked 3 goals for the whole year.

 

[bringdoullback]

Our 3rd, 4th and 5th most potent goal kickers last year were Owies, Kennedy and Martin. We went the Malthouse strategy of delisting/trading all our forward threats. Combine that with a pre-season focusing on defence and you have a formula for a poor offensive conversion.

Looks obvious when you show that info. Nice work.

Martin unfortunate. Goal kicking mid and best small forward gone absolutely made a difference. Absence of Lij further compounded scoring woes.

 

[bradfisher14]

It's great having people observe us from other clubs.

We are a very closed environment. Hardly any incoming coaches in since Voss and his group. Noting coming in from real successful clubs, coaches or players. We are a middle road club with coaches and players from other middle road clubs, very closed environment. GWS aren't a middle road club, they are a but better than that so it's interesting to hear. Wright is also not from a middle road club.

Perhaps a lot of comparing ourselves to clubs at our level and thinking all is good.

IMO there's a lot of people in positions of power at our club who deliberately avoid hiring from outside our bubble in order to avoid accountability.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Not sure why you've quoted my post, it doesn't mention games ...

I don’t give a rats about “mentor” (who has he actually mentored in 10 years of footy?), “footy smarts” or “desperation” if you can’t actually get out on the park.
Even when he has he’s finished top 10 once, at 10, in the bnf and nowhere else close to that.

The deal we have on the table is over the odds already, if he wasn’t a free agent it wouldn’t and should be less.

It is about the “name” and peoples emotional attachment to it, he’s serviceable but serviceable at the amount of money and tenure the filth are offering I’d prefer to take the end of round 1 minimum compensation we’d get and use that to bring in Harry Dean and bank the significant cap space we’d release.

 

[TENACIOUS]

With season over.

Any smart club in our position would be putting, players who we intend to keep that need operations, in now, so they are ready for preseason.

I’d be giving OOC, Wilson, Young, Charleson, Lemmey & White. The last block of games to maybe elevate themselves, before we make any decisions on their futures. I’d hate for us to delist a potential player without giving them an opportunity.

Kids - HOF, Carroll, Hollands, Lord, Moir, White & Cowan have all taken their opportunity and ran with it this year.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

I agree. He did. Had us playing a brand that had us winning and players bought in. It was great. It lasted about 14-15 weeks. Issue is that seems to be all he had and it was unsustainable.

Once sides starting working us out and how to beat us we have had no answers. Voss only answer is to go harder. Nothing really changes. Yes, there are little adjustments etc but nothing really changes, especially his message. Ever since mid last year we have been on the slide and he hasn't had answers or been able to turn it around

After limping into finals last year and being thrashed in our only final his answer was to double down on a contested, defensive brand over pre season. It's all we did

We have gone from a Prelim final to only being able to beat ONE top 8 side in 12 months. That is a dramatic collapse

As such, players have dropped off and lost trust in the message

The playing group seem to “lose trust” very quickly, how long do you you reckon before the same thing happens with the next coach?

IMO, there needs to be a bomb dropped underneath this playing group and I’m all in on investigating ways to do this

2024 we lost our one wood contested game quite alarmingly but on the flip side we became a top quadrant turnover team that scored with ease. That doesn’t happen without tinkering of the game plan, just doesn’t.

I think the plan was to reestablish the contested game which is in and around the coalface at stoppages, which really shouldn’t affect the turnover game in open play.

So, we’ve had a focus on defense, then layered on a very clear focus on the contest, then tried to layer on a focus on the turnover game and this year was most likely trying to mesh all those phases of the game together.

The players have failed dismally, and now they’ve lost “trust".

 

[Blugazi]

Alwyn Davey Jr worth a look if he ends up delisted? Seems to be playing VFL in the backline and getting a bit of the ball. Could be a handy small forward option, away from the EFC boneyard.

 

[chuncey]

Not a lot spoken about owies. Have we missed him?

Go to WC board. They hate him, claim he’s the worst pick-up they have ever made!

 

[gbatman]

I really don't believe we are that far off

I have said all year I really rate our youth. It's as good as any

We have A grade talent

If Wright can bring in players we need and a better, more modern coaching structure I reckon we are back in mix next year

My only issue with our youth is that they seem to be nearly all defenders.

I don't think we have any issues with our backline and the future there looks really good.

It's the midfield and more so the forward line that I am worried about. This is where we are really weak. Ben Camporeale and Smith aren't nothing, in fact I think they will be really good prospects but after that there isn't much. Moir will be a good forward but I am struggling to see who else.

Wright comes from a club who has been excellent at picking good forwards and they don't pick forwards like we do so I am hoping that changes things.

There is a lack of modern day mids, unless we find some of these defenders can become that. I am looking for mids with a burst of pace and an ability to run down players at an elite level. I think we have ways to go here.

I'm hoping that some good list management changes that really soon. We are way better off for youth than we were in the Malthouse era that is for sure. I just hope we can deversify a little bit more with our young depth. Obviously that will take time.

Our youth, is a nice start but I think we need to keep building here. You are right, we aren't far off, we need to add pace, add players and tactics which allow us to apply pressure and tackle heavily at times in the midfield and add some run and carry as well as a few forward targets.

I am keen to see what a new coaching group will bring.

 

[BlueJet]

Go to WC board. They hate him, claim he’s the worst pick-up they have ever made!

Fortunately for Owies, Bigfooty is hardly a reputable source.

 

[CrippaTheGoat9]

Sammy Edmund saying on crunch time our offer to SOS is a 4 year deal closer to $700k than $600k per year.

 

[Sector 7G]

Alwyn Davey Jr worth a look if he ends up delisted? Seems to be playing VFL in the backline and getting a bit of the ball. Could be a handy small forward option, away from the EFC boneyard.

Can’t get a game in a side with16 out injured says something

 

[jaggabagga]

I don't think we have any issues with our backline and the future there looks really good.

Yeah my favourite part is when they kick side to side 3 or 4 times to pad their stats and ensure our forwards have no chance to compete 1 v 1 or even 2 v 3 ever. Second part of the genius plan after that is kick long to a contest 5 meters from the boundary where we are outnumbered , just fantastic to watch, it's why we go to the football.
'Hey it's going to work this week guys', 'just got to stick to the plan and trust the process'. It hasn't worked before the 80,000 times we've tried it but if we just believe hard enough.
Honesty, no wonder these players have given up, cult level stupidity.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Really interested as to why we would.delist Cincotta?
I would delist 10 before him. He plays tough
Is it injury related?

Not saying Cincotta should go, but who are the 10 out of contract players you think we should delist before him?

 

[Beyond Blue]

100%. Pre season they were all good. Sadly, by even after Richmond game cracks emegered and quickly.

As I said some just have personal agendas and I am not interested

If it took all of one game for the players and coaches to start fracturing then I’d suggest they were never really as aligned as ever over pre season, or the players are too mentally fragile to be successful.

IMO the players are pressure bunnies and falter at the slightest hint of pressure or expectation. If they can’t clear that hurdle no coach is going to solve the issues we see week in week out with this player group.

 

[mochacinolatte]

Don't think bringing anyone will save us. If we can't execute basic kicks and handballs more time needs to be spent training the basic over and over instead of walking down and grabbing a coffee at lygon street.

 

[CaptainCharisma]

Sammy Edmund saying on crunch time our offer to SOS is a 4 year deal closer to $700k than $600k per year.

I know the salary cap has increased and we don't really want to lose him... but taking the name and guernsey number out of it, that seems like a lot of years and $ for a guy who has played 20 games in a season twice in his career and is turning 28 in December.

 

[mochacinolatte]

I know the salary cap has increased and we don't really want to lose him... but taking the name and guernsey number out of it, that seems like a lot of years and $ for a guy who has played 20 games in a season twice in his career and is turning 28 in December.

Seems a bit of overspend, but still worth to keep him because we look so much better there with him and Weiters. Need to look after HOF and Dean and give them time to put on size which probably take them 3+ pre-seasons.

I be filthy if we offered more than 1 year to McGovern.

 

[Benaly28]

What shits me is when journos use the term ‘he wants to play with his best mate’ so he’s going to leave the mates his made at Carlton and relationships he made plus the club his dad and grandfather played for with all the history just because he wants to play with his best mate who by the way has regressed as a player just for a slightly better offer at the filth.

 

[Blue and Silver]

With the season sunk. Let's look at the list again, but with a new intention.

Reset.

We can't keep doing what we've been doing and need to shake things up.

Aim 1. Re-balance Salary Cap.

It has been rumoured that Graham Wright is very unhappy with our cap arrangement (too few earning too much)

That means a top earner needs to be moved on, or they need to agree to a cut.

Top earners would be :

Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Walsh, Weitering and De Koning.

(note De Koning is not currently a top earner, but definitely will be if he stays)

Aim 2. Shore up the future

With at least a few best 22 players retiring this year or next, we need to learn into list revitalization.

We are fortunate enough to have at least 1 top prospect in the next two drafts tied to us.

Ideally we secure Dean and Walker at least, so need to ensure we have the picks this year and next to match.

Aim 3. Change the game plan

Obviously not only a list management situation, but personnel will be partially determined by whatever the new game plan requires.

It is beyond obvious that a change in approach is required so I won't contemplate doubling down on our current style.

Aim 4. Preserve some synergy

We are not in a baby out with the bathwater situation. Imo some Best 22 players will need to be moved on, but we should preserve a solid core of players who are familiar with each other. Building synergy is difficult and can take several pre-seasons.

We should identify which stars are remaining, then the players with whom they work best and then build around them and the up and coming kids.

For example we should keep Weitering so that he can work with O'Farrell and Dean coming through.

How do we achieve our Aims?

Well we have some obvious compatibility. Aim 1 will involve trading a big name or two. This should provide draft currency for Aim 2. It will also free up space to use to lure capable mid-tier players on competitive salaries. This will work for Aim 3. Aim 4 has some tension with Aim 1, but nothing ridiculous. We simply need to be careful to not cut too deep.

What might this look like?

Scenario 1

De Koning leaves as FA. Band 1 Compo.

Trade 1 of McKay, Curnow or Walsh.

This will generate at least 1 2025 1st round pick (Dean). Secondary goals will be to recruit mature players who suit the new system and future draft currency to secure Walker.

Let's imagine that De Koning goes to the Saints and McKay nominates Sydney.

Sydney provides a player who suits the new game style (Braeden Campbell?) a pick trade for value this year (their second for our third) and future picks (1st probably).

They also want Max King

Multiple players found. Use birthday to differentiate. eg [PLAYERCARD="23/11/1962"]Joe Smith[/PLAYERCARD]

this year so I imagine they will be splitting their first rounder to match that.

That addresses their structural issue of a key forward, provides us with an explosive midfield prospect and the draft capital to help us secure Dean, Walker and maybe also Ison.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

If it took all of one game for the players and coaches to start fracturing then I’d suggest they were never really as aligned as ever over pre season, or the players are too mentally fragile to be successful.

IMO the players are pressure bunnies and falter at the slightest hint of pressure or expectation. If they can’t clear that hurdle no coach is going to solve the issues we see week in week out with this player group.

110%, mental pygmies most of them. You just cannot trust them at all, look a million bucks when it’s going their way and fold like deck chairs when it’s not.

Need to investigate moving a couple on for fair value, I hope Wright is allowed to do what I feel he wants to do where he has no emotional attachment to any of them.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

With the season sunk. Let's look at the list again, but with a new intention.

Reset.

We can't keep doing what we've been doing and need to shake things up.

Aim 1. Re-balance Salary Cap.

It has been rumoured that Graham Wright is very unhappy with our cap arrangement (too few earning too much)

That means a top earner needs to be moved on, or they need to agree to a cut.

Top earners would be :

Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Walsh, Weitering and De Koning.

(note De Koning is not currently a top earner, but definitely will be if he stays)

Aim 2. Shore up the future

With at least a few best 22 players retiring this year or next, we need to learn into list revitalization.

We are fortunate enough to have at least 1 top prospect in the next two drafts tied to us.

Ideally we secure Dean and Walker at least, so need to ensure we have the picks this year and next to match.

Aim 3. Change the game plan

Obviously not only a list management situation, but personnel will be partially determined by whatever the new game plan requires.

It is beyond obvious that a change in approach is required so I won't contemplate doubling down on our current style.

Aim 4. Preserve some synergy

We are not in a baby out with the bathwater situation. Imo some Best 22 players will need to be moved on, but we should preserve a solid core of players who are familiar with each other. Building synergy is difficult and can take several pre-seasons.

We should identify which stars are remaining, then the players with whom they work best and then build around them and the up and coming kids.

For example we should keep Weitering so that he can work with O'Farrell and Dean coming through.

How do we achieve our Aims?

Well we have some obvious compatibility. Aim 1 will involve trading a big name or two. This should provide draft currency for Aim 2. It will also free up space to use to lure capable mid-tier players on competitive salaries. This will work for Aim 3. Aim 4 has some tension with Aim 1, but nothing ridiculous. We simply need to be careful to not cut too deep.

What might this look like?

Scenario 1

De Koning leaves as FA. Band 1 Compo.

Trade 1 of McKay, Curnow or Walsh.

This will generate at least 1 2025 1st round pick (Dean). Secondary goals will be to recruit mature players who suit the new system and future draft currency to secure Walker.

Let's imagine that De Koning goes to the Saints and McKay nominates Sydney.

Sydney provides a player who suits the new game style (Braeden Campbell?) a pick trade for value this year (their second for our third) and future picks (1st probably).

They also want Max King this year so I imagine they will be splitting their first rounder to match that.

That addresses their structural issue of a key forward, provides us with an explosive midfield prospect and the draft capital to help us secure Dean, Walker and maybe also Ison.

Lots of interesting stuff here, well thought out

Just a hypothetical. IF the Curnow to GCS raises it's head again during the trade period as a genuine request, would we entertain a trade of say: Curnow to GCS for B.King and a 1st round pick? With maybe a shuffling of later picks.

There was a Collingwood supporter who posted earlier this week that Wright is the one who has been negotiating with King's management over the past year or two, so could be a factor in a possible trade scenario.

So basically, we'd be trading out Curnow, but bringing in King, Dean and a 1st round player like a Lindsay or Grlj in 2026. Of course the TDK compensation pick is a whole other matter.

 

[TENACIOUS]

I’m of the camp, who are not overly concerned with who we move on. As long as we nail the players coming in.

We need players with a combination of the qualities (below).

1. Speed
2. Foot skills
3. IQ
4. Mongrel
5. Leadership