Autopsy 2025 Rd 1 Most Embarrassing Loss in Years

[tarczonandjane]

I am reminded of the uselessness of the oft repeated saying in AFL circles, 'don't get beaten by what you know.'

Shane Warne in his early days used to do at least one if not multiple clinics, in which he'd show people what he could bowl and how he did it. He did it everywhere he went, but it didn't seem to help anyone play him all that much.

Plenty of people 'knew' how to beat Hawthorn during their three premiership run; shut down their short play, forcing them long and down the line as after Buddy and Hale retired they didn't have options for contested marking down the line, and work through Gibson and place a pacy FF on Lake who could beat him on the lead. Legspeed was also pretty effective against them if you could win the clearances, as is evident by Richmond's multiple victories against them in that patch, too. But knowing how to beat them is genuinely half the battle; you've got to have the cattle to do it, gotta turn up on the day, got to have either the gameplan embedded or be very good at changing those gameplans on the fly.

Plenty of teams 'knew' how to defeat the Bulldogs in 2016. Plenty of teams 'knew' how to defeat Richmond between 2018 and 2020. Knowing how to beat teams does not equal being able to consistently beat them.

I am just so, so sick of AFL analysts treating the sport like it's basketball, or soccer, or like it's rugby or gridiron. Footy is different.

Knowing how to beat someone does not entail that it's doable. It's trite, vapid, insipid analysis posing as sagest insight.

It's popcorn masquerading as caviar.

You might be right. I certainly hope you are. 8 losses in 10 games has me thinking though.

 

[tarczonandjane]

Pretty sure holding defensive shape behind the ball is aimed at holding teams rebound out the back.

It’s not that they haven’t noted it or trained it - they did it pretty well in practice match vs Giants.

Failed dismally against Tigers.

Seems to be more about discipline rather than habit at this stage.

I don’t mind your point. My worry though is that aside from 6 games towards the tail end of 2023, we haven’t shown the discipline to be able to hold it over the course of a game. We would do it for bits of games last year.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

Well he had 14 touches, 2 shots on goal (1 poster and one miss) and had 290 metres gained in one quarter.

Made one bad blue which cost us a goal but from memory his initial give in that chain was good and our other player's fumble invited pressure which Doc succumbed to.

Clearly he is struggling with his kicking but his ability to get to the right spots and get the ball were spot on.

He had 14 touches, only 7 were effective.

He had 2 gettable shots on goal and missed both - the poster should have been a gimme which could have changed the momentum of the final quarter.

His missed handball which cost a goal was inexcusable and he also dropped a mark at the front of the centre square which resulted in a turnover goal.

So all in all went at 50% efficiency cost us 2 goals and missed another 2 - I would have him closer to the VFL than back in the 22.

 

[blues4flag]

Yes, it was umpired totally different to what they wanted and stated last year. 140 odd tackles and by memory only 2 were penalised. They let the game go which should have been an advantage to our bigger bodies as you have to adapt to the umpiring of the week and the conditions, we failed on both counts.

Player protection wasn't too high on their list either

Started after the bye last year. Coincidenced with faster ball ups. They stopped paying HTB overnight.

 

[CCurnow3picks]

I don’t mind your point. My worry though is that aside from 6 games towards the tail end of 2023, we haven’t shown the discipline to be able to hold it over the course of a game. We would do it for bits of games last year.

It’s a work in progress - that for sure

 

[Opium]

Given all the dropped marks, fumbling and basic skill errors. Do the players actually train at night to simulate those conditions?

The two prior pre season practice matches were played during the day and from what I understand we train during the day.

 

[lily of laguna]

Given all the dropped marks, fumbling and basic skill errors. Do the players actually train at night to simulate those conditions?

The two prior pre season practice matches were played during the day and from what I understand we train during the day.

Yes I asked this question 2 days ago.
Does any one know if we ever train match sim at night in the lead up to the season.
We always get early season night games and if we don’t train in those conditions that is terrible.

 

[Broadside]

Knowing how to beat someone does not entail that it's doable.

whilst I agree knowing how to do something is quite different from executing it, in Carlton's case it's rather simple for other teams to execute a successful game plan to counter us. In 8 of the last 10 games. We're not Hawthorn of the three-peat years, we are consistent only in being inconsistent.

 

[Opium]

Yes I asked this question 2 days ago.
Does any one know if we ever train match sim at night in the lead up to the season.
We always get early season night games and if we don’t train in those conditions that is terrible.

Agree. This would be on the coaches and HP team to ensure the players are as ready as possible once the session starts.

 

[AT97]

Well he had 14 touches, 2 shots on goal (1 poster and one miss) and had 290 metres gained in one quarter.

Made one bad blue which cost us a goal but from memory his initial give in that chain was good and our other player's fumble invited pressure which Doc succumbed to.

Clearly he is struggling with his kicking but his ability to get to the right spots and get the ball were spot on.

We all like Sam Doherty here, but his performance was poor On Thursday and it certainly wasn’t compelling enough to be included in the 22 this week as the journo suggests.

 

[Gethelred]

You might be right. I certainly hope you are. 8 losses in 10 games has me thinking though.

At no point in that collective of games did we ever look good, approach the zenith of our form. We, at best, maybe got out of second gear.

Things really haven't changed all that much for me. We are more or less precisely where we were when we got rid of Kennedy, Dow, Setterfield, Martin, Durdin, Cuningham, Marchbank and Owies in two off seasons and have lost Newman, Curnow, Smith from the 22 in the opening round and had Walsh, Harry, Hewitt, McGovern and Williams waaaay underperform; with all those factors considered, absolutely we're in a position to lose to pretty much anyone.

There's also the fact that I find it frustrating how shallow footy analysis is. Losses hurt more and are discussed more for some clubs than others. Injuries and player absences and form is allowed to be an excuse for some clubs but not others. Some players get treated better by the umpires and match review than others.

It is beyond frustrating that the way this sport is analysed is so completely subjective that 'don't get beaten by what you know' or 'we know how to beat them' is treated as good analysis. Those people can be wrong; they were wrong early last year, when Williams and Cincotta both kicked 25 goals between them over about 4 weeks.

'We know how to beat them.' What a genuinely laughable, arrogant concept!

whilst I agree knowing how to do something is quite different from executing it, in Carlton's case it's rather simple for other teams to execute a successful game plan to counter us. In 8 of the last 10 games. We're not Hawthorn of the three-peat years, we are consistent only in being inconsistent.

I can remember people saying that there was no way Carlton could make finals in 2023. I can remember quite clearly the certainty of it, one afternoon as I was walking around at work, listening to the commentary during a half time break discussing who would make finals.

The beauty of this sport is genuinely in the unexpected. Wins when you shouldn't get them; losses when they never should've happened. We by no rights should've beaten Fremantle in the wet in 2015, when Marc Murphy kicked a banana whilst being tackled with a wet ball to get it through and steal a game from them. We had no right to beat Richmond in 2013, stealing the stage and their AFL mandated position in Sydney the following week.

This is a sport where without rhyme or reason to allow you to comprehend it the best team in the comp can and will lose wholesale to the worst mob.

I get that there's an awful lot of people on this forum who struggle to watch games other than the ones we play in, for whatever reason. But the joy in it is found in the unexpected, and this sport is the most unpredictable game in the Milky Way.

 

[TrueQldBlue]

we've never been under so much pressure so quickly

after round 1!

we are delivering on the motto

Well done [emoji1]

On CPH2135 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Blue Pulse]

We all like Sam Doherty here, but his performance was poor On Thursday and it certainly wasn’t compelling enough to be included in the 22 this week as the journo suggests.

Sam has always taken 2-3 games to find his mojo as long as I can remember, especially his kicking. No, he shouldn't be given a spot without merit, no one should if you want to succeed. He had 14 possessions when he came on, yes he struggled but it shows he was getting to the right spot just wasn't clean like the rest of the side.

Let's remember, the coaches figured he was good to go for the EF last season after NO match or game touch for 20 odd weeks, but this season round 1 after a preseason and match sim he wasn't good for the whole game???

He should have been subbed for Haynes earlier as Haynes was having a mare and Silvagni pushed forward earlier to create 3 tall forwards and provide separation

 

[Big Red is back]

We all like Sam Doherty here, but his performance was poor On Thursday and it certainly wasn’t compelling enough to be included in the 22 this week as the journo suggests.

Surely you jest I could name 7 players who were utterly horrific whom he could easily replace.

 

[AT97]

Surely you jest I could name 7 players who were utterly horrific whom he could easily replace.

“Sam Docherty made an irresistible case to be included against the Hawks…”

This was the comment from the journo i disagreed with. Do you think he was correct?

 

[ForeverForward]

I wonder if Carlton are just a little bit gun shy at the moment. The injury list was horrific last year with some weeks fielding a reasonable team an achievement in its self. The off season by all accounts was good and then the star recruit goes down before even stepping on the ground. I wonder if the feeling that the 2024 injury horror list is still in the thoughts of a few players. If any players are having "What if's" the coaching staff need to get on top of it. I still feel round 1 was a blip and not a road map of the 2025 season. We just need to make sure the mental side gets the required attention it needs.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Re Doc, has there been a player in the history of the AFL who has had to deal with as much adversity as him?….not many.
Which leads me to wondering why he seems to be the first one to panic when placed under pressure on the field.
By rights he should be the most resilient on the field.
We are complex creatures.

 

[ForeverForward]

He is human, simple as that. Too easy for us to sit in our arm chairs and state how a player should react to certain situations. I know how I would like myself to react to any given situation, but how I actually do is another kettle of fish.

 

[Stamos]

From the Hun

Carlton had a shot at goal accuracy differential of minus 40.5% last week – its second-worst across the past 10 years.

I don't know how this is measured, but 2nd worst anything in a decade is abnormally bad.
Especially in a 13 point loss.

https://archive.md/SykNQ#selection-981.0-981.118

 

[SurreyBlue]

Started after the bye last year. Coincidenced with faster ball ups. They stopped paying HTB overnight.

What was worse the blatant 2 hand push in the back by a Richmond player to Motlop. It sent him past another Richmond player standing in front to enable them to take the mark. The umpire in perfect position and payed the mark. It was laughable considering the AFL warning during the week!!!! Just one of many others.

 

[katmanblue]

What was worse the blatant 2 hand push in the back by a Richmond player to Motlop. It sent him past another Richmond player standing in front to enable them to take the mark. The umpire in perfect position and payed the mark. It was laughable considering the AFL warning during the week!!!! Just one of many others.

50m not paid to Kemp. Was a shocker too. Still, he should have kicked it regardless.

On SM-F946B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Arr0w]

From the Hun


I don't know how this is measured, but 2nd worst anything in a decade is abnormally bad.
Especially in a 13 point loss.

https://archive.md/SykNQ#selection-981.0-981.118

Goal conversion per entry

We were shallow and or didn't bring the ball to ground or lock it in

 

[LanceRomance]

That suggests to me that Voss was asking him to do something that he perhaps shouldn't have been asking

Looking forward to the return of Curnow, another who goes to water when the heat is on, and who has never been subjected to anything resembling strong coaching, like all of our so-called 'stars'.

Voss patting McKay on the leg when he was on the bench, when he should have literally been screaming in his face to step the **** up.

I have been thinking upon my comment - reckon something was going on

 

[Gointocarlton]

Goal conversion per entry

We were shallow and or didn't bring the ball to ground or lock it in

To my eye, the problem in both the fwd and back lines is the rushed kick (or HB) that invariably results in a TO and we get made to pay.
IMO, our lads need to get better at wearing the tackle and creating a stoppage instead of rushing a hack kick or HB. This involves using the no prior part of the HTB rule to your advantage. This also involves team mates being ready to recognise and lend support to the team mate under pressure.
Speaking of support, has the art of laying a shepherd or a block when you give it off to some running passed and is being pursued been lost to game in general or just to our players? It's a simple skill that removes the pressure from the ball carries creating more time to think about the disposal before sending it.

 

[Arr0w]

To my eye, the problem in both the fwd and back lines is the rushed kick (or HB) that invariably results in a TO and we get made to pay.
IMO, our lads need to get better at wearing the tackle and creating a stoppage instead of rushing a hack kick or HB. This involves using the no prior part of the HTB rule to your advantage. This also involves team mates being ready to recognise and lend support to the team mate under pressure.
Speaking of support, has the art of laying a shepherd or a block when you give it off to some running passed and is being pursued been lost to game in general or just to our players? It's a simple skill that removes the pressure from the ball carries creating more time to think about the disposal before sending it.

I have been critical of our lack of tempo and change up. Seems way too manufactured at times, rather than playing based on how it unfolds in front of you

The lack of run from behind as well as players hitting up to the ball carrier seems far too lazy