Autopsy 31 point loss to Collingwood

[Bloods86]

Haha bit of both you can see why we threw a colossal offer at Naughton as he can take a grab.

Buller isn't bad at taking grabs, so hopefully once the VFL season gets going beyond this week on/week off patch, he gets into form.

 

[caesar88]

I would've liked to see Cox pull the plug on the Daicos tag mid-way through the game and shift Jordon to Sidebottom, who was doing more damage.

In fact I'd like us to be a bit more flexible with Jordon in general. Cox has spoken about how versatile Jordon is in terms of being able to play on inside mids, flankers, wingmen etc., and that he's a guy you can give instructions to during a game and he'll adapt on the fly. So use that! Playing Jordon in the same role every week - tagging the opposition's best inside mid - is not being versatile, it's predictable. Daicos didn't look hindered by the tag at all, probably because he had all week to prepare for it knowing it was coming.

Sidebottom might've been a bit more gettable for Jordon than Daicos if matched up on him more, and it could've also thwarted Collingwood's game plan and midfield dynamics a bit.

Shoulda woulda coulda I guess...

 

[MarshallG]

Like last year we dispose of the ball with reckless abandon and rely heavily on luck.

Across the ground we rarely lead forcing kicking to contests and, given we are lousy at getting contested ball we rarely maintain possession.

We never used to play this way, it used to to be maintaining possession with targeted disposal.

We can get our outs back, can't see a major improvement given lack of leading, free men and, disposal to contests.

 

[The King!]

I would've liked to see Cox pull the plug on the Daicos tag mid-way through the game and shift Jordon to Sidebottom, who was doing more damage.

In fact I'd like us to be a bit more flexible with Jordon in general. Cox has spoken about how versatile Jordon is in terms of being able to play on inside mids, flankers, wingmen etc., and that he's a guy you can give instructions to during a game and he'll adapt on the fly. So use that! Playing Jordon in the same role every week - tagging the opposition's best inside mid - is not being versatile, it's predictable. Daicos didn't look hindered by the tag at all, probably because he had all week to prepare for it knowing it was coming.

Sidebottom might've been a bit more gettable for Jordon than Daicos if matched up on him more, and it could've also thwarted Collingwood's game plan and midfield dynamics a bit.

Shoulda woulda coulda I guess...

I agree, but also for a while we kept fighting back getting close, so must be a balancing act with some of these moves, things start to work so better not change. However I think the coaches also love Rowbottom too much at times to just move him to a run with role.

 

[caesar88]

I agree, but also for a while we kept fighting back getting close, so must be a balancing act with some of these moves, things start to work so better not change. However I think the coaches also love Rowbottom too much at times to just move him to a run with role.

Rowbottom cannot do run-with roles. Jordon is great at them (no shame in getting beaten by Daicos, especially when he was getting so much help compared to Jordon.)

Weirdly I think the dynamic in the midfield is actually good right now, the players are just that 10-20% off where they usually are so it's not clicking. Heeney a few weeks ago against Freo looked awful with his fumbles and lack of cleanliness, he got it back in a big way last night. Then Rowbottom has one of his worst games, but he'd gotten coaches votes the previous two weeks and been important in those wins. Then there's Warner, who is all over the shop, but is always going to be more reliant on those inside guys for supply.

I think if those three can get on song and back into the form of last year, then combined with Jordon doing the negating work (while also being a factor with the ball), it could finally click.

Big if though.

 

[The King!]

Rowbottom cannot do run-with roles. Jordon is great at them (no shame in getting beaten by Daicos, especially when he was getting so much help compared to Jordon.)

Weirdly I think the dynamic in the midfield is actually good right now, the players are just that 10-20% off where they usually are so it's not clicking. Heeney a few weeks ago against Freo looked awful with his fumbles and lack of cleanliness, he got it back in a big way last night. Then Rowbottom has one of his worst games, but he'd gotten coaches votes the previous two weeks and been important in those wins. Then there's Warner, who is all over the shop, but is always going to be more reliant on those inside guys for supply.

I think if those three can get on song and back into the form of last year, then combined with Jordon doing the negating work (while also being a factor with the ball), it could finally click.

Big if though.

Rowbottom could go run with and negate someone in my opinion if given a go , maybe i will end up with egg on my face but he has discipline , will tackle etc.

I think on Jordon he can run with but he had the balance better v like Freo than the Pies, maybe stats will
make me a liar, but felt he negated but also attacked and he was important in the clearances.


I think you made a good point elsewhere re midfield balance and Cox working things out, I think we will get up and down efforts for a while here, they will look awesome like the Norf game then it's harder the next and not just because of opposition quality .

 

[caesar88]

Rowbottom could go run with and negate someone in my opinion if given a go , maybe i will end up with egg on my face but he has discipline , will tackle etc.

I think on Jordon he can run with but he had the balance better v like Freo than the Pies, maybe stats will
make me a liar, but felt he negated but also attacked and he was important in the clearances.


I think you made a good point elsewhere re midfield balance and Cox working things out, I think we will get up and down efforts for a while here, they will look awesome like the Norf game then it's harder the next and not just because of opposition quality .

I think I posted somewhere quite a while ago a list of Rowbottom's run-with opponents and how often they ended up getting coaches votes, Brownlow votes etc. It was lengthy and didn't make for pretty reading. Jordon's taken more scalps already in five games than Rowbottom did in about four years.

I think in the case of Jordon impacting with the ball, he probably found it harder to do that with Daicos than he did with Serong. I rate Serong, but Daicos is a different beast in terms of the fitness required to go with him. Jordon was probably working overtime to stick to that role that he had to basically take himself out of the game to do so. And it ended up being for naught. This is why I'd like us to be a bit more flexible with him and go OK, this match-up isn't working, try a different one. Even if it means he ends up on the outside more taking a Sidebottom, or a half back or something. Just use his versatility to keep Jordon impacting somehow. Don't let him just battle away for the whole match in a losing battle.

 

[hairy biker]

I think on Jordon he can run with but he had the balance better v like Freo than the Pies, maybe stats will
make me a liar, but felt he negated but also attacked and he was important in the clearances.

I think the major issue with tagging Daicos is the way he plays

Neale/Serong are ball chasers so a tagger can go with them at the coalface and win their own ball.
Daicos on the other hand, if he doesn't win the first ball, is quite happy to be the first or even second receiver and the tagger can get lost when they are still at the contest.

Against Daicos I think the tagger has to essentially forget the ball and just run everywhere with Naicos,otherwise he will lose the tagger in traffic.

 

[The King!]

I think I posted somewhere quite a while ago a list of Rowbottom's run-with opponents and how often they ended up getting coaches votes, Brownlow votes etc. It was lengthy and didn't make for pretty reading. Jordon's taken more scalps already in five games than Rowbottom did in about four years.

I think in the case of Jordon impacting with the ball, he probably found it harder to do that with Daicos than he did with Serong. I rate Serong, but Daicos is a different beast in terms of the fitness required to go with him. Jordon was probably working overtime to stick to that role that he had to basically take himself out of the game to do so. And it ended up being for naught. This is why I'd like us to be a bit more flexible with him and go OK, this match-up isn't working, try a different one. Even if it means he ends up on the outside more taking a Sidebottom, or a half back or something. Just use his versatility to keep Jordon impacting somehow. Don't let him just battle away for the whole match in a losing battle.

All fair , look I just want less Rowbottom as our clearance player , he is too slight and not skilled enough, not saying he shouldn't play or isn't a good player he certainly is.

 

[The King!]

I think the major issue with tagging Daicos is the way he plays

Neale/Serong are ball chasers so a tagger can go with them at the coalface and win their own ball.
Daicos on the other hand, if he doesn't win the first ball, is quite happy to be the first or even second receiver and the tagger can get lost when they are still at the contest.

Against Daicos I think the tagger has to essentially forget the ball and just run everywhere with Naicos,otherwise he will lose the tagger in traffic.

You probably almost just concede Daicos gets 30 and just go head to head each contest

 

[Punts]

Rowbottom is playing average footy

Wouldn’t get a have in a top 6 - 8 team

 

[wolftone57]

I’m sick of the Brisbane Lions comparisons from last year excuse. You’re kidding yourself if you think we are emulating that.

Finals are probably unlikely this year. There is no cavalry in sight with those out of the side.

We had a coach whose go to was Reid back in the last part of a quarter and now we have a Coach whose move is McCartin forward. Just forget that move he is a different player forward and is not an answer.

Make other bold switches. Move Blakey up on a wing or Bice for a period.

Rampe time is up. You were a great servant of the club but giving up contested marks and having nothing more than a long kick to a contest where we can’t mark is just time on a great career. Take Lloyd with you.

This team don’t have the composure through enough players to not panic kick. This alone could change our fortunes to risk a good disposal rather than panic kick to be under the same pressure five seconds later.

Flashes of brilliance but not enough class to dispose clean.

If I had the opportunity to choose another team back in 1984 then I’d select one that doesn’t have such a terrible history with umpiring. There just seems some BS hate for Sydney where we are rarely in their good books. I’m sick of the frustration around that. Of course I’m glad I chose the Swans but it’s a commitment to crap umpiring.

8 free kicks to guess who? You guessed it, Daicos. Then he puts his knee into Jordan's head and no free. What a dirty little four letter word that starts with C.

 

[wolftone57]

It's a major drop-off, but the likes of Hanily and Cleary can fill Paps' void better than any of our keys can replicate Amartey's presence.

Amartey often gets double-teamed. No opposition is ever going to bother double-teaming any of our other key forwards. Cannot overstate how important this is.

I think this is why he has looked so much better this year. His self-belief is far higher than it's ever been on a weekly basis.

When McDonald is there it works because they actually have to worry about him too. He was double teamed yesterday

 

[caesar88]

All fair , look I just want less Rowbottom as our clearance player , he is too slight and not skilled enough, not saying he shouldn't play or isn't a good player he certainly is.

With all due respect I feel like there is a bit of recency bias in this. Granted, he looks a bit off his game so far this season. Not as sharp as usual, not attacking things as hard as usual (not saying he's soft), not looking overly confident with the ball. (He's not alone there!)

But the only times we have looked a competitive midfield unit in recent years has been with Rowbottom as one of our primary clearance players. Much of the first half of 2024 when we went 13-1, much of the latter stretch of 2023 when we made our run to the finals and went 6-0, much of the latter stretch of 2022 when we went 9-1 en route to the GF. He was arguably the one constant in all of those periods, as the likes of Parker, Heeney, Mills & Warner weren't in there for all three.

So I'm not prepared to dismiss what Rowbottom can do just because Jordon had a great game against Freo and Rowy's had a sluggish start to the season. A sluggish start where he was injured for a few of them and polled coaches votes in two out of five games. That's not bad going.

 

[The King!]

Amartey hurt is annoying, needed to see him deliver against a good side, still doesn't do enough to be the number 1 yet

 

[The King!]

With all due respect I feel like there is a bit of recency bias in this. Granted, he looks a bit off his game so far this season. Not as sharp as usual, not attacking things as hard as usual (not saying he's soft), not looking overly confident with the ball. (He's not alone there!)

But the only times we have looked a competitive midfield unit in recent years has been with Rowbottom as one of our primary clearance players. Much of the first half of 2024 when we went 13-1, much of the latter stretch of 2023 when we made our run to the finals and went 6-0, much of the latter stretch of 2022 when we went 9-1 en route to the GF. He was arguably the one constant in all of those periods, as the likes of Parker, Heeney, Mills & Warner weren't in there for all three.

So I'm not prepared to dismiss what Rowbottom can do just because Jordon had a great game against Freo and Rowy's had a sluggish start to the season. A sluggish start where he was injured for a few of them and polled coaches votes in two out of five games. That's not bad going.

No that's worth considering , his disposal has always shit me, but correct can't throw it away and lose all the good as well.

I'd like to see the CBA stats, seems his % are well up .

I enjoy your thinking , challenging mate

 

[lazy77]

Logan is on restricted minutes and Mccartin move I didn't mind, tried something

Putting McCartin forward is worse than trying nothing. He can't kick and he's a bad mark. It made a dysfunctional forward line stop functioning altogether.

 

[The King!]

Putting McCartin forward is worse than trying nothing. He can't kick and he's a bad mark. It made a dysfunctional forward line stop functioning altogether.

Bad mark? No he isn’t.

But either way not in love with the move, but at least did something, I think the problem was in the middle though , needed a move there, Blakey midfield, Cleary, Hayward f knows. Something

 

[Dubai Quacker]

You probably almost just concede Daicos gets 30 and just go head to head each contest

Yep, 30 frees sounds about right.

He gets quite a few possessions too.

Champion player & the umps are correct to penalise those who attempt to use physical means to dull his sheer brilliance and crowd-pleasing genius.

 

[The King!]

Yep, 30 frees sounds about right.

He gets quite a few possessions too.

Champion player & the umps are correct to penalise those who attempt to use physical means to dull his sheer brilliance and crowd-pleasing genius.

His frees are ridiculous at times. But then again most good players get good umpiring . I don’t know I just can’t hate the bloke, seems a decent guy, works hard and he can play. Yeah I ****en hate the Pies, but he is a genuine star the way he impacts games

 

[joeykanga]

They don’t travel every second week. They hadn’t left Victoria in a month.

They just seem wiser and smarter. How many times did our mids converge on the ball in a cluster and one of theirs popped a little loop pass over the top to all their free mids and they were out. We don't seem to have composure. It's all rush when it needs to be a fake or a swerve and instead we just pass it anywhere.
In open field we have players that second guess the right option and sometimes slow things to a crawl. Lloyd. And then in defence Blakey just jumps aimlessly and their free players are hanging off out the back. All our. players jumping and missing. I know it sounds simplistic from me. It just seems like at times there's no visualisation or thought process. It's just manic

 

[The King!]

Pies didn’t spend enough time organising their travel outfits

 

[caesar88]

No that's worth considering , his disposal has always shit me, but correct can't throw it away and lose all the good as well.

I'd like to see the CBA stats, seems his % are well up .

I enjoy your thinking , challenging mate

I feel like I'll have to whisper this or enter witness protection, but... I don't mind his ball-use?? I don't want him lining up for goal if my life is in the balance, and he tends to misfire when short-range kicking on the run, but other than that I am actually OK with it. I think he does a lot of good things with the ball each week, they just don't really catch the eye. And he's good for 1-2 moments of class you wouldn't expect from him. Even last night, that kick into the corridor that found Hanily at HF was arguably the kick of the night, just nothing came of it.

His CBAs are at 65%, third amongst Swans mids this year behind Heeney (77%) and Jordon (74%). His 65% is actually down from the 71% CBAs he had last year. So he's not as prevalent in there this year as he was last year. I think he's just annoying you more

 

[The King!]

I feel like I'll have to whisper this or enter witness protection, but... I don't mind his ball-use?? I don't want him lining up for goal if my life is in the balance, and he tends to misfire when short-range kicking on the run, but other than that I am actually OK with it. I think he does a lot of good things with the ball each week, they just don't really catch the eye. And he's good for 1-2 moments of class you wouldn't expect from him. Even last night, that kick into the corridor that found Hanily at HF was arguably the kick of the night, just nothing came of it.

His CBAs are at 65%, third amongst Swans mids this year behind Heeney (77%) and Jordon (74%). His 65% is actually down from the 71% CBAs he had last year. So he's not as prevalent in there this year as he was last year. I think he's just annoying you more

Yeah there you go, because the other thing too is I would have said I don’t mind him shooting for goal , feel he is reliable

 

[caesar88]

I think the major issue with tagging Daicos is the way he plays

Neale/Serong are ball chasers so a tagger can go with them at the coalface and win their own ball.
Daicos on the other hand, if he doesn't win the first ball, is quite happy to be the first or even second receiver and the tagger can get lost when they are still at the contest.

Against Daicos I think the tagger has to essentially forget the ball and just run everywhere with Naicos,otherwise he will lose the tagger in traffic.

This is such a great point.