Opinion A different perspective

[marty36]

This thread sure turned to s**t lol. I blame Campo.

Come on either Burton or Mackays fault, they actually are too blame for the petrol price increase also because of the bombing on the fuel factory

 

[DJ75]

Come on either Burton or Mackays fault, they actually are too blame for the petrol price increase also because of the bombing on the fuel factory

I'm surprised you haven't blamed Ogilvie instead...

 

[TexForPM]

You're as delusional as Chapman.

oooooooo

thems fighting words

 

[DJ75]

A few people over the last few months have suggested maybe we are a broken club. And I'm not talking about the current s**t fight going on with personnel, rather the mental strength of the players. Now this is something that might be getting overlooked as we quickly try to "fix" that which ails us. It is interesting that two of the four "outsiders" that were brought into review the club are specialists in high performance and sports psychology and that they had apparently already been at the club addressing issues. Someone in the footy department wanted the mental health of our players assessed.

When Walshy was murdered, there were a group of players left absolutely shattered. He was their new coach, they were learning his ways. It appears that they had bonded well with the new coach and taken ownership of his game plan. Certainly new Captain Taylor Walker had. So, in the July, when Walsh was brutally murdered by his son, those players were thrown into a head space no other club has ever had to deal with. Tex rallied the troops and they all vowed and declared they wouldn't give in until they'd "got the job done". Scott Camporeale was caretaker coach for the rest of the year, and the boys seemed buoyed and playing with a purpose. The first chink in their armour was Patrick Dangerfield's decision to return home to Geelong. It seemed a s**tty thing to do to the team mates you'd vowed just a few months before to get the job done, especially when it was later revealed that he'd told David Noble that he would be leaving the club at the end of the year BEFORE Walsh was killed. Probably brought about by the fact that Walsh hadn't chosen him as Captain. Even after the tragedy he decided to abandon his team mates in their greatest hour of need.

Enter Pyke. Pyke seemed to bond well with the players... he appeared to be very similar to Walsh in his demeanour and also seemed to embrace the Walsh philosophy that still hovered over the club like an unfinished masterpiece. Over the next two years, Don got the boys to play off in a grand final, after being arguably the best team throughout the season though not without some hiccups along the way and perhaps a tell tale sign that not everything was perfect at the club. The loss of both Mitch McGovern and Charlie Cameron at the end of 2017 sent the club into free fall that sees us where we are today.

But for me I think the core group of players (that were there when Walsh died) never really got over that tragedy. While help may have been offered by the Club... was it the right sort of help? Pyke was certain there were some mental toughness issues among the playing group after the GF loss (hence the introduction of Collective Minds). Obviously that was an absolute disaster and he acknowledged that, while refusing to apologise for trying "something new". I was hoping after the grand final loss, that they could put their debts to Walshy to bed. It was time to let him go and let us move forward now with a new focus and new philosophy. I'm still not sure they've done that.

Moving past all the garbage that has infested this thread since the OP, I thought I'd get back to the original discussion.

The OP lays out almost exactly the argument I raised when details of the camp came through. It is exactly what I raised with Fagan both in email and in direct conversation. It wasn't so much about the ins and outs of what did or didn't happen on the camp - it was about the reaction to the GF loss. The decision to even hold a camp of the nature it was, demonstrated incredibly poor decision making from those responsible.

In 2018 I wrote this to Fagan;
As I am sure you are all too aware, the AFC, players, staff and many coaches have been through an enormous amount in the past few years. From the suspension and then death of Dean Bailey, through to the loss of coach Phil Walsh, the group has endured an incredibly challenging time. To the great credit of all involved, the club held itself together and continued to rise to the challenges presented. The playing group will have carried the loss and lessons of Walsh with them over the next few years. I would be certain that in approaching the Grand Final, many will have felt they were doing so in a manner to pay tribute to him. Many will have entertained thoughts of ‘getting the job done’ and paying tribute to him. Taylor Walker would not have been able to avoid considering how he might pay tribute to Phil in an acceptance speech (it is human nature to have done so).

The loss then would have been devastating for the group. All grand final losses are challenging to accept and move on from, this one in particular will have been heart breaking for the players. To have come so far and to have ‘failed’ Walsh (clearly not true but some will have felt this way) will have left the players feeling as though they were grieving all over again.

Anyone with a remote knowledge of psychology, of team performance, of coping with loss or a basic understanding of the players and what they have been through, would have understood this. The players were always going to need support and understanding at this time.

The decision then to hold a camp of the nature suggested is a baffling one. It points to poor decision making, a lack of judgement and a lack of understanding of our playing group. I won’t go in to the ins and outs of the camp and of what it may or may not have entailed (another example of very poor communication and messaging from the club), but it is fair to say the camp was a disaster for the playing group. I find the decision to engage groups who are clearly unqualified to run any type of psychological program with a playing group that is worth millions of dollars to the club and to have suffered the trauma they had, to be utterly indefensible. The program entered in to was not a meditation or breathing exercise, but required a very significant increase in psychological knowledge and experience. The Collective Minds group did not have this level of expertise or experience. I am perplexed as to how the management structures at the club allowed this to occur.

I have heard your comments that decisions are made in consultation and it is not reasonable to point your finger at any one individual. However, we do have individuals who are employed to make these decisions. They are expected to have the experience and knowledge required to make the correct decisions...

It goes on a bit longer, but the point is clear - the players needed support, not blame at the end of 2017. The decision to ride the playing group and to blame them for the loss was appalling and a demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the group. I made the point that Burton in particular had a history of poor decision making.

Consider the difference between our reaction to the 2017 loss and that of Buckley to their loss (how he openly expressed his love for the playing group). The result? One club in crisis and one looking like playing in another GF. If ever a playing group needed support, it was after 2017. Our leaders got it so very, very wrong and they need to take ownership of that.

 

[marty36]

I'm surprised you haven't blamed Ogilvie instead...

Nah he's just responsible for the atrocious state of the list

On SM-G965F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[skam85]

Do you think posting the same stuff the second time makes your argument stronger.......keep drinking the bath water Subi.....you've lost it.

lost it implies once having the possession of 'it', which I strongly doubt

 

[jenny61_99]

lost it implies once having the possession of 'it', which I strongly doubt

Can we not do this s**t please?

 

[Elite Crow]

Can we not do this s**t please?

Curious, have you ever told Subaru to pull her head in?

 

[skam85]

Can we not do this s**t please?

Sorry Boss.

 

[Elite Crow]

Moving past all the garbage that has infested this thread since the OP, I thought I'd get back to the original discussion.

The OP lays out almost exactly the argument I raised when details of the camp came through. It is exactly what I raised with Fagan both in email and in direct conversation. It wasn't so much about the ins and outs of what did or didn't happen on the camp - it was about the reaction to the GF loss. The decision to even hold a camp of the nature it was, demonstrated incredibly poor decision making from those responsible.

In 2018 I wrote this to Fagan;
As I am sure you are all too aware, the AFC, players, staff and many coaches have been through an enormous amount in the past few years. From the suspension and then death of Dean Bailey, through to the loss of coach Phil Walsh, the group has endured an incredibly challenging time. To the great credit of all involved, the club held itself together and continued to rise to the challenges presented. The playing group will have carried the loss and lessons of Walsh with them over the next few years. I would be certain that in approaching the Grand Final, many will have felt they were doing so in a manner to pay tribute to him. Many will have entertained thoughts of ‘getting the job done’ and paying tribute to him. Taylor Walker would not have been able to avoid considering how he might pay tribute to Phil in an acceptance speech (it is human nature to have done so).

The loss then would have been devastating for the group. All grand final losses are challenging to accept and move on from, this one in particular will have been heart breaking for the players. To have come so far and to have ‘failed’ Walsh (clearly not true but some will have felt this way) will have left the players feeling as though they were grieving all over again.

Anyone with a remote knowledge of psychology, of team performance, of coping with loss or a basic understanding of the players and what they have been through, would have understood this. The players were always going to need support and understanding at this time.

The decision then to hold a camp of the nature suggested is a baffling one. It points to poor decision making, a lack of judgement and a lack of understanding of our playing group. I won’t go in to the ins and outs of the camp and of what it may or may not have entailed (another example of very poor communication and messaging from the club), but it is fair to say the camp was a disaster for the playing group. I find the decision to engage groups who are clearly unqualified to run any type of psychological program with a playing group that is worth millions of dollars to the club and to have suffered the trauma they had, to be utterly indefensible. The program entered in to was not a meditation or breathing exercise, but required a very significant increase in psychological knowledge and experience. The Collective Minds group did not have this level of expertise or experience. I am perplexed as to how the management structures at the club allowed this to occur.

I have heard your comments that decisions are made in consultation and it is not reasonable to point your finger at any one individual. However, we do have individuals who are employed to make these decisions. They are expected to have the experience and knowledge required to make the correct decisions...

It goes on a bit longer, but the point is clear - the players needed support, not blame at the end of 2017. The decision to ride the playing group and to blame them for the loss was appalling and a demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the group. I made the point that Burton in particular had a history of poor decision making.

Consider the difference between our reaction to the 2017 loss and that of Buckley to their loss (how he openly expressed his love for the playing group). The result? One club in crisis and one looking like playing in another GF. If ever a playing group needed support, it was after 2017. Our leaders got it so very, very wrong and they need to take ownership of that.

What was his response?

 

[DJ75]

What was his response?

Fagan emailed me and rang me. We spoke for about an hour on the phone.
He was caught up a bit on the whole issue of what actually happened on the camp - ie refuting the more outlandish claims in the media.

It was a really good chat and I thought Fagan came across really well. I posted a more detailed run down last year.
I left the chat feeling like there was a deliberate move by the media to push a false narrative around the camp. However, there were elements of what he said I clearly did not agree with. I was also given a clear impression that many of the coaches etc... we end up appointing are not our first choices. It seems we try regularly to bring in others, but for whatever reason (Money or location or AFC culture or whatever) they won't come to us. It means we are often left with ex-Crows players as one of a very limited number of options.

 

[subaru]

Fagan emailed me and rang me. We spoke for about an hour on the phone.
He was caught up a bit on the whole issue of what actually happened on the camp - ie refuting the more outlandish claims in the media.

It was a really good chat and I thought Fagan came across really well. I posted a more detailed run down last year.
I left the chat feeling like there was a deliberate move by the media to push a false narrative around the camp. However, there were elements of what he said I clearly did not agree with. I was also given a clear impression that many of the coaches etc... we end up appointing are not our first choices. It seems we try regularly to bring in others, but for whatever reason (Money or location or AFC culture or whatever) they won't come to us. It means we are often left with ex-Crows players as one of a very limited number of options.

A first hand account.
And the last para indicates the club is not intent on creating,or giving willy nilly, jobs for the boys

 

[jenny61_99]

Fagan emailed me and rang me. We spoke for about an hour on the phone.
He was caught up a bit on the whole issue of what actually happened on the camp - ie refuting the more outlandish claims in the media.

It was a really good chat and I thought Fagan came across really well. I posted a more detailed run down last year.
I left the chat feeling like there was a deliberate move by the media to push a false narrative around the camp. However, there were elements of what he said I clearly did not agree with. I was also given a clear impression that many of the coaches etc... we end up appointing are not our first choices. It seems we try regularly to bring in others, but for whatever reason (Money or location or AFC culture or whatever) they won't come to us. It means we are often left with ex-Crows players as one of a very limited number of options.

I’ve been saying that for some time now (hard to get people here). Everyone just assumes we are doing the job for the boys thing... when in reality, we just can’t get enough good folk here - also taking in to account, that the pool of candidates is not all that huge to begin with.

 

[subaru]

As I've already said what happened may not have breached the integrity unit but it obviously didn't impress them or the players and has had a flow on effect
That much we can surmise


Sent from my SM-J730G using Tapatalk

“Surmise”

 

[Elite Crow]

For the record, it wasn’t just aimed at Skam... it was aimed at ALL those choosing to derail the thread with their petty bulls**t.

That's not answering the question, have you ever told Subaru to pull her head in? You have no issues quoting the rest of us, but I don't think you've ever had a crack at her and given her posting, thats unusual you would choose not too.

 

[Elite Crow]

Fagan emailed me and rang me. We spoke for about an hour on the phone.
He was caught up a bit on the whole issue of what actually happened on the camp - ie refuting the more outlandish claims in the media.

It was a really good chat and I thought Fagan came across really well. I posted a more detailed run down last year.
I left the chat feeling like there was a deliberate move by the media to push a false narrative around the camp. However, there were elements of what he said I clearly did not agree with. I was also given a clear impression that many of the coaches etc... we end up appointing are not our first choices. It seems we try regularly to bring in others, but for whatever reason (Money or location or AFC culture or whatever) they won't come to us. It means we are often left with ex-Crows players as one of a very limited number of options.

I spoke to him as well last year and have had some email exchanges late this year.

Unfortunately, most of it is spin or delusion. When he told me Burton was a superstar and he accepted Burtons claim that the poor injury record at Brisbane was because Leppitsch wanted them pushed too hard, I knew then we were ****ed.

He has also repeatedly denied any issues with Burton. So if Burton gets the arse, well whats that tell you?

 

[Golumless]

I spoke to him as well last year and have had some email exchanges late this year.

Unfortunately, most of it is spin or delusion. When he told me Burton was a superstar and he accepted Burtons claim that the poor injury record at Brisbane was because Leppitsch wanted them pushed too hard, I knew then we were f’ed.

He has also repeatedly denied any issues with Burton. So if Burton gets the arse, well whats that tell you?

I have no particular issue with what is said there, but the real question is does Fagan believe that, or was it just him putting a brave face on. I suppose this review will answer that question, and right now, I struggle to believe Burton could survive it if he isn't on the panel for a head coach.

What it tells me is Fagan isn't stupid when it comes to what he says to someone outside of his circle.

 

[Doctor B]

Fagan emailed me and rang me. I was also given a clear impression that many of the coaches etc... we end up appointing are not our first choices. It seems we try regularly to bring in others, but for whatever reason (Money or location or AFC culture or whatever) they won't come to us. It means we are often left with ex-Crows players as one of a very limited number of options.

It would be interesting to get a list of all of Ken Hinkleys assistants and senior assistant coaches since he's been at Port to see how many are ex Port.

 

[Elite Crow]

I have no particular issue with what is said there, but the real question is does Fagan believe that, or was it just him putting a brave face on. I suppose this review will answer that question, and right now, I struggle to believe Burton could survive it if he isn't on the panel for a head coach.

What it tells me is Fagan isn't stupid when it comes to what he says to outsiders.

My opinion is he believed it. This was middle of last year, before that press conference. Burton survived and we kept him for another year. It should have been obvious to Fagan and the club that Burton had to go last year.

 

[jenny61_99]

It would be interesting to get a list of all of Ken Hinkleys assistants and senior assistant coaches since he's been at Port to see how many are ex Port.

Also, how many are ex Crows - which further proves my point about it being difficult to get good people to come to Adelaide.

 

[Southerntakeover]

It seems we try regularly to bring in others, but for whatever reason (Money or location or AFC culture or whatever) they won't come to us. It means we are often left with ex-Crows players as one of a very limited number of options.

In which case, what is being done to improve our attractiveness as an employer?

 

[Big Gazoongas]

In which case, what is being done to improve our attractiveness as an employer?

Exactly. This statement has red flags all over it, yet the bath water drinkers will slurp this statement up that all is good.....like they have.

 

[Elite Crow]

Maybe we shouldn’t be tightarses and pay for quality assistants

 

[MRB37]

I’ve been saying that for some time now (hard to get people here). Everyone just assumes we are doing the job for the boys thing... when in reality, we just can’t get enough good folk here - also taking in to account, that the pool of candidates is not all that huge to begin with.

Except we've done it in the past. We promised Ben Hart we'd find something for him after he got turfed from Collingwood and couldn't find work in Melbourne. As soon as a spot opened up he slid in, because and only because he was an ex-Crow in need of work.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Exactly. This statement has red flags all over it, yet the bath water drinkers will slurp this statement up that all is good.....like they have.

It's one of the more aggravating factors of the debate, I think. That when you boil it down, the self professed 'true fans' are actually the worst fans. They don't believe in the club, or it's potential at all. They don't dream of being the best, or successful.

They dream of a cosy little club-scrappy and to be praised for punching above its weight but not a true heavyweight and not really able to compete with them. A club you can be proud of in its defeats, because they did their best and it was the best that could be done for us.

And what a miserable betrayal of what should be our club's true mission- to be the best, and the most successful club in Australia. They would betray the club itself to enable the administration to exist in a state where no criticism can be levelled. By conceding that better is not possible, by refusing any expectation of better, they seek to create a circumstance whereby we cannot ever fail- you can't fail if you could never have passed due to circumstances out of your control.

Meanwhile, the 'negatives', the frustrated fans are the ones who actually do have a belief in the club (as distinct from its administration). They're the ones that believe that the club could, and should, be better, and who want a relentless drive for improvement until we are.

We should always oppose the defeatists, and we should not be fooled for an instant when they claim to have some greater love or loyalty to the club. They're the ones that don't believe in it.