All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[Markfs]

I could have guessed before it happened, that there would be allegations about palestinian leaders trying to stop australian jews mourning the killing of israelis. The palestinian leadership should have known these allegations would be made.

On the other hand, jewish leadership groups get the police and MPs to do their work for them. This requires long-terming planning, not just a last-minute desire to get out of the streets.

The targetting of PUMA's sponsorship of Israel's soccer team is a far better method and it was apparently successful in December but it took a number of years.

I understand that working against the current system in australia is difficult. I saw my first realistic assessment of the bombing of gaza on rupert's site last week. Previous to that particular article, news of hospitals being bombed and children killed has been ignored by that site and much of the mainstream media. The ABC appears to be unwilling to even get near the more even-handed approach of the BBC, for the fear of the loss of funding.

 

[Phil Inn]

I respect the AJA for the methods that they use and their effectiveness. Referring to them by using schoolyard names probably says more about the people making those statements, or at best, they are trying to win the lobbying battle by portraying the AJA as uncool. I acknowledge that this approach often seems to work on social media. However, the AJA's methods of using money, leverage, control, gifts etc are far more sophisticated. Palestinians are hanging by a thread and using prehistoric methods to win the debate is a bit like using hand-held weapons against 21st century weaponry.

I think you are mistaking the AJA for some other groups there.

The AJA don't do gifts, money, etc. or lobbying in the traditional sense. You are probably mistaking them for the Zionist Federation of Australia.

The AJA is a small private organisation, essentially a couple of guys, who are far right agitators. They for example attempted to sponsor a tour by Lauren Southern to speak about the "Great Replacement Theory" of race. They are very far right, essentially neo nazi adjacent, and an embarassment to the vast majority of Australian jewry. They are a very specific case. Go check out their twitter feed from even before October 7 and it is basically a grab bag of the far right of Sky After Dark with a jewish spin.

Indeed, they count on lazy people like you mistaking them for jewish associations that actually have some community clout for their reach. They are a convrenient go to for far right politiicians to quote from to pretend their point of view is supported by "the jewish community".

Uncommonly lazy from you Markfs.

 

[Markfs]

I think you are mistaking the AJA for some other groups there.

The AJA don't do gifts, money, etc. or lobbying in the traditional sense. You are probably mistaking them for the Zionist Federation of Australia.

The AJA is a small private organisation, essentially a couple of guys, who are far right agitators. They for example attempted to sponsor a tour by Lauren Southern to speak about the "Great Replacement Theory" of race. They are very far right, essentially neo nazi adjacent, and an embarassment to the vast majority of Australian jewry. They are a very specific case. Go check out their twitter feed from even before October 7 and it is basically a grab bag of the far right of Sky After Dark with a jewish spin.

Indeed, they count on lazy people like you mistaking them for jewish associations that actually have some community clout for their reach. They are a convrenient go to for far right politiicians to quote from to pretend their point of view is supported by "the jewish community".

Uncommonly lazy from you Markfs.

well i'm not an expert like the rest of you boys are...more like a long term observer curious how politics are played out in this country. I did find out recently that the chairman of the zionist fed is the guy who runs spotlight and there are people pushing to have his business affected. Interesting that I just found out this minute that owners of chemistwarehouse is also associated with the zionist fed and I have to think about going elsewhere...

while I take your point that the AJA might be more right than the zionist fed and other associations, I just see a broad range of tactics from the lobbying industry.

And yes, I am uncommonly lazy. It doesnt stop others expressing a view.

I think everyone has the right not to deal with businesspeople who dont have attitudes which align with theirs, even if they're lazy like myself. I've noticed that in the USA, the BDS approach has been "outlawed" in some areas....probably an indication that it works.

my point being that marching down streets is useless and is counterproductive if the the opposing view is supported by the media.

 

[Phil Inn]

well i'm not an expert like the rest of you boys are...more like a long term observer curious how politics are played out in this country. I did find out recently that the chairman of the zionist fed is the guy who runs spotlight and there are people pushing to have his business affected. Interesting that I just found out this minute that owners of chemistwarehouse is also associated with the zionist fed and I have to think about going elsewhere...

while I take your point that the AJA might be more right than the zionist fed and other associations, I just see a broad range of tactics from the lobbying industry.

And yes, I am uncommonly lazy. It doesnt stop others expressing a view.

I think everyone has the right not to deal with businesspeople who dont have attitudes which align with theirs, even if they're lazy like myself. I've noticed that in the USA, the BDS approach has been "outlawed" in some areas....probably an indication that it works.

my point being that marching down streets is useless and is counterproductive if the the opposing view is supported by the media.

And my point being that calling them names that are nothing other than the plain honest truth is not off base, and they are bad example for what you are saying.

 

[Markfs]

And my point being that calling them names that are nothing other than the plain honest truth is not off base, and they are bad example for what you are saying.

phil, i'm not that interested in points of order. I'm just interested in stopping the murder of children in gaza. I express that view to the few australians that I know who are interested and I express it here.

Now my laziness may have failed me so that I cant see the legitimate reason for killing children. However, I just cant how that could be.

On another point, Phil, do you know if Jack Gance is on the board of one of these lobbying organisations? I'm trying to escape my laziness and base a decision that I'm going to make on the facts.

 

[sr36]

I respect the AJA for the methods that they use and their effectiveness. Referring to them by using schoolyard names probably says more about the people making those statements, or at best, they are trying to win the lobbying battle by portraying the AJA as uncool. I acknowledge that this approach often seems to work on social media. However, the AJA's methods of using money, leverage, control, gifts etc are far more sophisticated. Palestinians are hanging by a thread and using prehistoric methods to win the debate is a bit like using hand-held weapons against 21st century weaponry.

I don't agree with you here. Israel aren't fairing too well at the moment in the spin stakes. Allies are back to pushing for two state solution and US moving to treat the settler terrorists like terrorists, putting pressure on there.

 

[Markfs]

I don't agree with you here. Israel aren't fairing too well at the moment in the spin stakes. Allies are back to pushing for two state solution and US moving to treat the settler terrorists like terrorists, putting pressure on there.

well they have the western leaders in their back pockets but people like joe still have to get elected...and it's pretty hard to do that when he is supporting another country which is killing thousands of children....

so you could say that various western leaders are caught between the voters who can relect....and israel who evidently gives other benefits...

and then there's australia whose leadership is holding firm running that ridiculous two state argument and the "fact" that israelis defending themselves yada yada...

one thing that you can say about the right-wing cabinet ministers in israel and that they are honest..... no two state solution....and i'll include the bibi in that too..

as for treating a handful of "settlers"....settlers..lol....it makes me laugh, this language....as for the settlers...4 of them I think. Evidently, if they're US citizens as well then the measures have no effect. You gotta be kidding SR. We have had window dressing since the beginning with that Blinken shuttling off to see his masters to get instructions and then shooting off to the arab countries to placate them...and the arab leaders arent much better. Prefer the loot to saving kids.....

And these are the people we put in charge to save the planet, SR. Zero morality....zero.

On side note, I wonder if the top israeli leadership met with Penny.....considering she's a sinner of course. She met with some leaders but did she meet with the right wingers who wanted to drop the bomb on gaza???? I like those moments. They tell a story

 

[Markfs]

to answer my question....well it seems that the appropriate people met with wong..... she paid the rent and they shook her hand....very pragmatic

 

[Black_White]

Onya Wongy.
The MAJORITY of Australia are right behind you.

 

[sr36]

well they have the western leaders in their back pockets but people like joe still have to get elected...and it's pretty hard to do that when he is supporting another country which is killing thousands of children....

so you could say that various western leaders are caught between the voters who can relect....and israel who evidently gives other benefits...

and then there's australia whose leadership is holding firm running that ridiculous two state argument and the "fact" that israelis defending themselves yada yada...

one thing that you can say about the right-wing cabinet ministers in israel and that they are honest..... no two state solution....and i'll include the bibi in that too..

as for treating a handful of "settlers"....settlers..lol....it makes me laugh, this language....as for the settlers...4 of them I think. Evidently, if they're US citizens as well then the measures have no effect. You gotta be kidding SR. We have had window dressing since the beginning with that Blinken shuttling off to see his masters to get instructions and then shooting off to the arab countries to placate them...and the arab leaders arent much better. Prefer the loot to saving kids.....

And these are the people we put in charge to save the planet, SR. Zero morality....zero.

On side note, I wonder if the top israeli leadership met with Penny.....considering she's a sinner of course. She met with some leaders but did she meet with the right wingers who wanted to drop the bomb on gaza???? I like those moments. They tell a story

I think your vision is blurred. The pollies are driven by elections not perks that you're carrying on about.

Nationalism is kicking arse all around the world and the Murdoch Press is milking it and thus fueling it. Supporting Israel is the nationalist stand in both Aust and US.

It's the press that are driven by profit. The pollies are driven by votes.

Libs will have a field day if Labour don't back Israel, because its Islam not Israel that the nationalist fear campaign can target. Australians don't fear the Jews.

 

[Phil Inn]

phil, i'm not that interested in points of order. I'm just interested in stopping the murder of children in gaza. I express that view to the few australians that I know who are interested and I express it here.

Now my laziness may have failed me so that I cant see the legitimate reason for killing children. However, I just cant how that could be.

On another point, Phil, do you know if Jack Gance is on the board of one of these lobbying organisations? I'm trying to escape my laziness and base a decision that I'm going to make on the facts.

You make out like it's a minor detail when you have been pointed out to be wrong. It;s not a point of order, and it;s not minor.

The AJA are a very specific case. They are to all intents and purposes not a Zionist group advocating for Israel, but one using that cloak to pursue a darker and wider far right agenda, in fact one contrary to the broader interest of the jewish diaspora.

You specifically belittled my characterisation of THEM.

I have a specific beef with them, as one of the far right causes they pursue and support is violent anti LGBT protest and hate, and specifically they actively promote the "gay = pedophile groomer" rhetoric that constitutes a physical danger to people like me, and were active in promoting and supporting the neo nazi plus terf rally in the city with Deeming and Posy Parker.

They are not the same as other Zionist groups, and my gripe with them is separate from the others for good reason. Their additional pot stirring is just grist to a broader darker mill.

One of these things is not like the other. And I will ******* call them what I like, and not be spoken down to in doing so by you or anyone else, not least as part of some broad point about Zionist lobbying to which they are at best tangential.

 

[Markfs]

I think your vision is blurred. The pollies are driven by elections not perks that you're carrying on about.

Nationalism is kicking arse all around the world and the Murdoch Press is milking it. Supporting Israel is the nationalist stand in both Aust and US.

It's the press that are driven by profit. The pollies are driven by votes.

Libs will have a field day if Labour don't back Israel, because its Islam not Israel where the nationalist fear campaign can target. Australians don't fear the Jews.

i agree with what you say....but the relationships are built up via overseas holidays etc.

And of course, there's the big weapon....calling someone anti-semitic if they say anything about children getting killed.

 

[Markfs]

You make out like it's a minor detail when you have been pointed out to be wrong. It;s not a point of order, and it;s not minor.

The AJA are a very specific case. They are to all intents and purposes not a Zionist group advocating for Israel, but one using that cloak to pursue a darker and wider far right agenda, in fact one contrary to the broader interest of the jewish diaspora.

You specifically belittled my characterisation of THEM.

I have a specific beef with them, as one of the far right causes they pursue and support is violent anti LGBT protest and hate, and specifically they actively promote the "gay = pedophile groomer" rhetoric that constitutes a physical danger to people like me, and were active in promoting and supporting the neo nazi plus terf rally in the city with Deeming and Posy Parker.

They are not the same as other Zionist groups, and my gripe with them is separate from the others for good reason. Their additional pot stirring is just grist to a broader darker mill.

One of these things is not like the other. And I will ******* call them what I like, and not be spoken down to in doing so by you or anyone else, not least as part of some broad point about Zionist lobbying to which they are at best tangential.

well i'm lazy like you say.

and I lack knowledge on your issues. However, if they are conservative jews then they are likely to believe in the torah and that would make them programmed in all the usual anti-gay stuff. It comes with all tha judeo-christian hate stuff and you can throw islam in there too.

all i know, phil, is that it doesnt matter how lazy i am, innocent kids are being murdered nightly in gaza....

 

[Markfs]

Onya Wongy.
The MAJORITY of Australia are right behind you.

you probably need to adjust your signature...

no pride in indigenous genocide...

just so people know which genocide you're talking about

 

[Phil Inn]

well i'm lazy like you say.

and I lack knowledge on your issues. However, if they are conservative jews then they are likely to believe in the torah and that would make them programmed in all the usual anti-gay stuff. It comes with all tha judeo-christian hate stuff and you can throw islam in there too.

all i know, phil, is that it doesnt matter how lazy i am, innocent kids are being murdered nightly in gaza....

And trying to run the whole "aww shucks I guess you just dont care about murdered children" line instead of just owning up to making a mistake and correcting it isn't just lazy, it is pathetic.

Pathetic.

 

[Markfs]

And trying to run the whole "aww shucks I guess you just dont care about murdered children" line instead of just owning up to making a mistake and correcting it isn't just lazy, it is pathetic.

Pathetic.

phil, i cant really apologise because I honestly dont feel it...

it's a bit like an israeli apologising for the bombing..

but phil, you might be able to help me. I'm thinking of not using chemist warehouse because it's owned by jack gance, but I'm not sure if jack is of the same philosophical ilk as the bombers from israel, because if he's not supporting the bombing, it would be unfair of me to withdraw my business.

You're pretty knowledgeable bout the people in this area. What do you think?

 

[ZEV]

The AJA are a very specific case. They are to all intents and purposes not a Zionist group advocating for Israel, but one using that cloak to pursue a darker and wider far right agenda, in fact one contrary to the broader interest of the jewish diaspora.

Just to reclarify my stance on them. I hate them and they are causing multiple divisions in the community. In the name of Judaism. * them and the messages they are sending.

My defence of their actions where they were alleged to be doctoring was based on this from NSWPOL;

“The expert has concluded with overwhelming certainty that the phrase chanted during that protest, as recorded on the audio and visual files, was ‘where’s the Jews?’” he said.

“There is a compilation video, which has a number of audio and visual files, those audio and visual files have not been doctored, they are simply cuts from a more ‘parent file’.

“When examined, the parent file and the video compilation have the same audio and visual and from that the expert has been able to conclude they are the words that were used.”

 

[JB1975]

The death of Dr Lowitja O'Donoghue was announced today. An Indigenous leader, a leader, victim of child removal, relentless advocate.

A beautiful spirit who managed to be angry without recrimination.

91 years old.

 

[Phil Inn]

Just to reclarify my stance on them. I hate them and they are causing multiple divisions in the community. In the name of Judaism. * them and the messages they are sending.

My defence of their actions where they were alleged to be doctoring was based on this from NSWPOL;

“The expert has concluded with overwhelming certainty that the phrase chanted during that protest, as recorded on the audio and visual files, was ‘where’s the Jews?’” he said.

“There is a compilation video, which has a number of audio and visual files, those audio and visual files have not been doctored, they are simply cuts from a more ‘parent file’.

“When examined, the parent file and the video compilation have the same audio and visual and from that the expert has been able to conclude they are the words that were used.”

Fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree on the importance of that difference to the degree of culpability, but you are coming from an honest place and I respect that.


Hoping this heat dissipates soon. Keeping three horses, a pony, and about a dozen kangaroos happy and healthy in this heat is bloody hard work and I'm ready to down about a gallon of ice cold beer

 

[vindaloo]

Police chief slams ‘ugly rabble’ taking on police at Pride March

Shane Patton said officers marching in Sunday’s annual Midsumma Pride March showed restraint when paint was thrown at them and police were called killers.

www.theage.com.au

WTF!

 

[vindaloo]

Just to reclarify my stance on them. I hate them and they are causing multiple divisions in the community. In the name of Judaism. * them and the messages they are sending.

My defence of their actions where they were alleged to be doctoring was based on this from NSWPOL;

“The expert has concluded with overwhelming certainty that the phrase chanted during that protest, as recorded on the audio and visual files, was ‘where’s the Jews?’” he said.

“There is a compilation video, which has a number of audio and visual files, those audio and visual files have not been doctored, they are simply cuts from a more ‘parent file’.

“When examined, the parent file and the video compilation have the same audio and visual and from that the expert has been able to conclude they are the words that were used.”

Hey Zev, it doesn't really matter because,
Where are the Jews is probably a shade less threatening.
It's still reported that gas the Jews was shouted by people at the protest anyway. The protest happened a couple of days after the massacre where there was an israel flag on the Opera House to pay respect for said Massacre.
It was not the time to attend such a protest, I know a lot of people love to attend these events but maybe they could have waited til Israel had predictably retaliated. What do you expect when you attend such a protest where it would attract degenerates given the timing of it. This would not be tolerated in sections of the news if it was a right-wing protest and there were undesirables also simply in attendance, say the riots initiated from vaccine mandates in 2021.

 

[ZEV]

Fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree on the importance of that difference to the degree of culpability, but you are coming from an honest place and I respect that.


Hoping this heat dissipates soon. Keeping three horses, a pony, and about a dozen kangaroos happy and healthy in this heat is bloody hard work and I'm ready to down about a gallon of ice cold beer

Thank you for listening and understanding my point of view. I certainly learnt things about the AJA that I didn't know and wouldn't have if we didn't have this dialogue.

Today was beautiful and warm, like July in Tel Aviv. Ideal for me, but a massive task for you. I hope it cools down soon for you and you can enjoy some refreshments, I think I might crack one as well!

 

[Markfs]

Showers predicted for the next two days in gaza. Not great camping weather....

 

[Phil Inn]

Thank you for listening and understanding my point of view. I certainly learnt things about the AJA that I didn't know and wouldn't have if we didn't have this dialogue.

Today was beautiful and warm, like July in Tel Aviv. Ideal for me, but a massive task for you. I hope it cools down soon for you and you can enjoy some refreshments, I think I might crack one as well!

The Macedon ranges are kind of ok, we got to about 38, but the threat of bushfires makes you more nervous, and the animals really don't like it. People are always surprised when I tell them kangaroos are really not good at taking heat. Weird for an animal native to this land but anyway.

I was fortunate to go to Tel Aviv when I was in my wandering phase. The beaches are awesome, would love to be on one right now with a Goldstar.

Closest I have been for a while in spirit when I lived in Melbourne was Tavlin restaurant. Loooooove the food.

Shalom and have a great week.

 

[NMBB]

The death of Dr Lowitja O'Donoghue was announced today. An Indigenous leader, a leader, victim of child removal, relentless advocate.
A beautiful spirit who managed to be angry without recrimination.
91 years old.

I would say she sought justice without vengeance