An alternative to the 'National' competition

[Purple Suit]

Fans won't follow a merged team, you'll lose more than you'll gain.

Again, for such a thing to happen, the merging clubs would have to consult their members and their members will refuse, even if they did then it'd have to go to a vote from all clubs, only a majority would get up.

Given that ALL clubs receive funds from the product they provide, it's highly unlikely a vote would get up.

Who knows, hasn’t happened in Australia for two teams in the same state. They will still have half the players they like, half their colours and name. 11 home games a year too. They will probably be a powerhouse to begin too which will help retain fans.

It would be easy for the AFL to do it, just give a long lead time and warning that the two bottom teams on set criteria will be merged in 5-10 years. Tie funding to it, teams have no choice or be cut off.

Do it once for Tassie or another team to balance. If might create another big 5 team eg. 2 minow teams us now one that now have 40k at home games against interstate teams & can fill the MCG vs a big 4 team.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Who knows, hasn’t happened in Australia for two teams in the same state. They will still have half the players they like, half their colours and name. 11 home games a year too. They will probably be a powerhouse to begin too which will help retain fans.

It would be easy for the AFL to do it, just give a long lead time and warning that the two bottom teams on set criteria will be merged in 5-10 years. Tie funding to it, teams have no choice or be cut off.

Do it once for Tassie or another team to balance. If might create another big 5 team eg. 2 minow teams us now one that now have 40k at home games against interstate teams & can fill the MCG vs a big 4 team.

Who knows? The fans know.

There is no known universe where fans of a club that are over 100 yo are just gonna 'ok let's merge so the comp is more equal'.

Try asking a North or Dogs or Saints fan if they'd be in favour of this, see how ya go, I'm pretty sure I know, you know and everyone else knows the answer.

Regardless if they could become a 'powerhouse' or not, would ya think I'd be happy if the Pies merged to become a 'powerhouse'? Nah, I'd drop em like a toxic ex, obviously most fans would do the same. Would you be happy if Freo would merge with WC? Yeah nah.

 

[Purple Suit]

Who knows? The fans know.

There is no known universe where fans of a club that are over 100 yo are just gonna 'ok let's merge so the comp is more equal'.

Try asking a North or Dogs or Saints fan if they'd be in favour of this, see how ya go, I'm pretty sure I know, you know and everyone else knows the answer.

Regardless if they could become a 'powerhouse' or not, would ya think I'd be happy if the Pies merged to become a 'powerhouse'? Nah, I'd drop em like a toxic ex, obviously most fans would do the same. Would you be happy if Freo would merge with WC? Yeah nah.

No one knows because it’s never happened. You’re a Collingwood supporter, how would you know what it’s like to be a small club fighting to survive?

No need to merge a 2 team town. 10 is another story.

Better than your idea of just dissolving them. That is 100% guaranteed to lose all the fans.

 

[Carringbush2010]

No one knows because it’s never happened. You’re a Collingwood supporter, how would you know what it’s like to be a small club fighting to survive?

No need to merge a 2 team town. 10 is another story.

Better than your idea of just dissolving them. That is 100% guaranteed to lose all the fans.

Dissolving merging same same.

Ok North, Dogs, Saints and Dees supporters, whaddya think of the suits proposal?

Pretty sure everyone knows the answer.

 

[naysayer]

I don't this discussion would be very high on the agenda for anyone working at the AFL or any of its clubs.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I propose that the massive footy states of Western and South Australia get together and form a breakaway league.

Then you can invite teams to join, maybe make 2 new Vic clubs and ask them, see how you go.

At least try something instead of following the Vics like sheep.

 

[AstonSouffle]

Well you've got choice, IF non vic have such disdain for the AFL and all its inequities, vote with your feet and remotes and snub it.

Follow the state leagues, they're pretty good and would force the AFL to return back to the VFL.

Win win.

Are you a boss by any chance?

An employee comes to you asking if things can be better, and you tell them without listening 'if you don't like it leave'. That's obviously an overreaction.

On your wider point, we don't have disdain (at least I don't). But Victorian clubs benefit greatly from the existence of WA players, and the WA public love footy - but we literally time and time again have to bend to your will on certain things, honestly feels like there's no respect, and your arrogant suggestions that we leave, like it's a viable option? Plus it's the suggestion that the AFL would be what it is today without the interstate clubs? The money swirling around the game is because it's national.

There's ways to balance inequities without the answer being 'go to the state leagues'. I don't want smaller Vic clubs to leave, that's a lazy answer (like your go back to state league suggestion).

I do care about the following;
- Our night games needing to be earlier because it needs to suit your viewing (even if it's our night game). Don't know if you guys realise people physically need to attend these games and therefore are required to travel. This conversation has occurred on the train 'why is the game do early?' 'its because of timezones and Victoria'. You guys couldn't care less about this, again disrespectful - should we go back to state leagues because we can't have our night games at the same time you do?

- Free agency is overblown, GWS and Gold Coast have gotten compensation back when it's happened. Geelong, Hawthorn, and Richmond didn't benefit from it - the club's that lost their players to them went on to play finals and win flags.

- For Melbourne supposedly being the epicenter of football it is increasingly private school, and per capita you don't produce enough elite talent. Theoretically the saturation of football you guys have, you should have a bolted on top 20 that doesn't fail. Then you have the gall to suggest Sydney are rorting the comp by getting hold of players they developed that Victorians would have never produced themselves.

- Flying does have an effect physically and some clubs travel more than others, i.e Melbourne went to Alice Springs, or interstate clubs miss out on valuable Melbourne games to go to Darwin/Hobart/Cairns. Why not have a soft cap formula to counteract this?

- That you come across as if it's a Victorian game, not a national game - have very little respect for places that breathe football like the NT, WA, SA (unless they have great players and move to Victoria and make your team Collingwood lots of money).

 

[Carringbush2010]

Are you a boss by any chance?

An employee comes to you asking if things can be better, and you tell them without listening 'if you don't like it leave'. That's obviously an overreaction.

On your wider point, we don't have disdain (at least I don't). But Victorian clubs benefit greatly from the existence of WA players, and the WA public love footy - but we literally time and time again have to bend to your will on certain things, honestly feels like there's no respect, and your arrogant suggestions that we leave, like it's a viable option? Plus it's the suggestion that the AFL would be what it is today without the interstate clubs? The money swirling around the game is because it's national.

There's ways to balance inequities without the answer being 'go to the state leagues'. I don't want smaller Vic clubs to leave, that's a lazy answer (like your go back to state league suggestion).

I do care about the following;
- Our night games needing to be earlier because it needs to suit your viewing (even if it's our night game). Don't know if you guys realise people physically need to attend these games and therefore are required to travel. This conversation has occurred on the train 'why is the game do early?' 'its because of timezones and Victoria'. You guys couldn't care less about this, again disrespectful - should we go back to state leagues because we can't have our night games at the same time you do?

- Free agency is overblown, GWS and Gold Coast have gotten compensation back when it's happened. Geelong, Hawthorn, and Richmond didn't benefit from it - the club's that lost their players to them went on to play finals and win flags.

- For Melbourne supposedly being the epicenter of football it is increasingly private school, and per capita you don't produce enough elite talent. Theoretically the saturation of football you guys have, you should have a bolted on top 20 that doesn't fail. Then you have the gall to suggest Sydney are rorting the comp by getting hold of players they developed that Victorians would have never produced themselves.

- Flying does have an effect physically and some clubs travel more than others, i.e Melbourne went to Alice Springs, or interstate clubs miss out on valuable Melbourne games to go to Darwin/Hobart/Cairns. Why not have a soft cap formula to counteract this?

- That you come across as if it's a Victorian game, not a national game - have very little respect for places that breathe football like the NT, WA, SA (unless they have great players and move to Victoria and make your team Collingwood lots of money).

At the end of the day Aston the bulk of the market is from vic, the league would quite easily survive if it wasn't what it is now and returned to a vic only comp, and yes it would attract players, coaches and staff from SA and WA as it used to. It would garner the most public interest as it used because.......

The vic population outnumbers all the other footy states combined, the game originated from there, the most participants and supporters are from there, that's why the game is 'centred' over there.

To have the league as national and equitable as possible you would have to cull clubs from vic, the smallest of those has 50k members, there is no known universe that any league or its constituents would willingly cull those clubs, not to mention such a proposal would have to be consulted to the club members, then all the clubs would have to vote, there's zero chance this would happen.

There's threads & threads with 100s of pages of salt and vitriol from non vic fans about the inequity, I'd argue that yeah there is a lot of disdain.

This league ain't changin to the detriment of those smaller clubs and their $ paying fan bases.

So yeah I say to those who detest the league and yourself as you claim you don't, you have a choice. Vote with your feet and remotes or don't.

 

[kaiserchief13]

Or they can just win the grand final away from home like we did

Yeah because Richmond beat Brisbane at the Gabba on grand final day. Also Melbourne beat WC/Freo on grand final day too.

 

[AstonSouffle]

At the end of the day Aston the bulk of the market is from vic, the league would quite easily survive if it wasn't what it is now and returned to a vic only comp, and yes it would attract players, coaches and staff from SA and WA as it used to. It would garner the most public interest as it used because.......

The vic population outnumbers all the other footy states combined, the game originated from there, the most participants and supporters are from there, that's why the game is 'centred' over there.

To have the league as national and equitable as possible you would have to cull clubs from vic, the smallest of those has 50k members, there is no known universe that any league or its constituents would willingly cull those clubs, not to mention such a proposal would have to be consulted to the club members, then all the clubs would have to vote, there's zero chance this would happen.

There's threads & threads with 100s of pages of salt and vitriol from non vic fans about the inequity, I'd argue that yeah there is a lot of disdain.

This league ain't changin to the detriment of those smaller clubs and their $ paying fan bases.

So yeah I say to those who detest the league and yourself as you claim you don't, you have a choice. Vote with your feet and remotes or don't.

See this is what I don't get with you, it really is all or nothing - culling Vic clubs is not an option, and you know it isn't. I make other suggestions you ignore and then present the ludicrous impossible option, and of course shut down your own ludicrous suggestion and say we can't solve it. You fair dinkum and would suggest something that helps?

So rather than face my comment about why we can't have night games you guys don't even watch at 7:10/40 our time... you say leave the comp, this is the main crux of my argument, why have we got to cop those small things? The big things like FIFO,

I have no issue with the game being in Melbourne, I do take issue with the likes of yourself insinuating that non Vic clubs are beneath the Vic clubs. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Plus honestly, the people up and about in these threads are Hawthorn, Carlton, and Collingwood fans - teams that benefitted from zoning and didn't allow for equitable rotation and brought on the requirements of the draft. So it's not a Vic thing really, it's just the same old rich people pulling up the ladder behind them and thinking it was all solely their own hard work without a shred of thanks for the people who helped them along the way.

Would you allow a setup where the club's got first pick at players from their state and then the draft started? Probably not, and that's the realm of discussion I operate in not this 'abolish Vic clubs' nonsense.

 

[juss]

I prefer the AFL than if it went back to state leagues.

 

[Danw0w]

Yeah because Richmond beat Brisbane at the Gabba on grand final day. Also Melbourne beat WC/Freo on grand final day too.

Fact check: Brisbane actually lost the prelim the week before... at the Gabba.

We also beat Port the week before... at the Adelaide Oval.

Turns out if you're good enough it doesn't matter where you play!

 

[Carringbush2010]

I make other suggestions you ignore and then present the ludicrous impossible option,

To be honest the only option is to abolish teams from vic to make it equitable, there is no other way

why have we got to cop those small things? The big things like FIFO,

Well that's obviously die to market forces, like I said, vic is the biggest market, more than half

I do take issue with the likes of yourself insinuating that non Vic clubs are beneath the Vic clubs.

Rubbish! I've never ever insinuated such a thing, vic has more market, and that's what you misinterpreted

 

[kaiserchief13]

Fact check: Brisbane actually lost the prelim the week before... at the Gabba.

We also beat Port the week before... at the Adelaide Oval.

Turns out if you're good enough it doesn't matter where you play!

Prelim final =! Grand final last i checked

 

[Danw0w]

Prelim final =! Grand final last i checked

Principle is the same!!!!

 

[AstonSouffle]

To be honest the only option is to abolish teams from vic to make it equitable, there is no other way

Well that's obviously die to market forces, like I said, vic is the biggest market, more than half

Rubbish! I've never ever insinuated such a thing, vic has more market, and that's what you misinterpreted

You want real 'equity' let every state get first dibs at their state's talent, watch quickly how 'the market's dictates itself, with no draft. Within the decade it would rearrange itself that you'd effectively have WA and SA state teams and then about 6 Vic Powerhouses. Of course GWS would probably die unfortunately, the rest would be okay however. Probably would be a better spectacle as well. Keep the cap otherwise you'll get West Coast winning every year and I don't think I could stomach that.

Your beloved market would sort itself out, but in the meantime it's meant to an equitable competition so other suggestions outside of folding clubs are the way (I strongly suspect the reason you say that's the only way, is because you're deliberately obtuse to all other suggestions).

Collingwood's list for example is not constructed from draft picks or free agency, it's got clever list management. So I'm not about to whinge or sook.

But I just said fans have to go to games in peak hour traffic and you didn't blink an eye, you didn't care, you said it's because of the market and that's that.

You lot without a hint of irony or self awareness talk of Perth as a grueling away trip and players talk it up, yet WA teams do it every weekend and they're told nothing to see here. It's more the stark brazen hypocritical statements openly said lol. I'm actually in the nothing to see here camp, it's possible to win premierships from WA, Qld or SA clearly. It's you lot that say WA is the other side of the world (it's not, I used to to FIFO to the NT weekly.. you get used to the travel).

 

[Carringbush2010]

You want real 'equity' let every state get first dibs at their state's talent,

Then in that case, vic would get more look at draft because there's more of them.

Your beloved market would sort itself out

It's not my 'beloved', in any case there is no known universe that the vic market will sway. That's not up for debate.

You lot without a hint of irony or self awareness talk of Perth as a grueling away trip and players talk it up, yet WA teams do it every weekend and they're told nothing to see here.

Well that's a geography problem, not much we can do about that unless we don't have an expanded VFL, which is what we have currently.

It's you lot that say WA is the other side of the world (it's not, I used to to FIFO to the NT weekly.. you get used to the travel).

Yes I live in Perth and FIFO every week to and from the goldfields..................... and?

 

[AstonSouffle]

To be honest the only option is to abolish teams from vic to make it equitable, there is no other way

Well that's obviously die to market forces, like I said, vic is the biggest market, more than half

Rubbish! I've never ever insinuated such a thing, vic has more market, and that's what you misinterpreted

Actually, I'm going to call it.

Respectfully this interaction is making me quite upset lol, I love football, I live in WA, I grew up in WA, I learnt my love of the game in WA, I'm a paying member, I always attend and I wasn't born when the AFL was formed. The state league the WAFL is a non-entity. I support a team in the AFL, I also picked a team who isn't very good lol and have stuck with them.

Yet here's a Victorian telling me, I need to vote with my feet and return to a past that doesn't exist because I just want a bit more of a fair go on a few common sense things (like game times being friendly to our timezone when it's at home). Who also talks as if WA doesn't produce anything that aids the national competition... it's unbelievably callous of you.

Gpod luck to you mate, will watch Collingwood knock the pants off us next week!

 

[Carringbush2010]

The state league the WAFL is a non-entity.

That is very very disrespectful, the WAFL (which I watch a bit) is of the highest quality and likely the only comp a rung below the AFL (possibly the SANFL too).

I'm not being callous at all, I'm being honestly blunt.

Apart from your fixture changes, you haven't provided any real solution to what is, and no one can argue, a comp that is favoured toward the vic market.

I have, you don't like them, what else do you want me say?

You view my ideas as 'disrespectful' when I'm being honest and admitting the comp is skewed this way.

To be blunt, the only way to make the comp equitable is less vic teams, you and I both agree that is not possible.

So, it's either accept what we have OR all non vic fans vote with their remotes and their feet. That's pretty much it.

And this is not about 'quality of players - football', it's purely about vic has more numbers and that dictates what we have, like it or lump it.

 

[AstonSouffle]

That is very very disrespectful, the WAFL (which I watch a bit) is of the highest quality and likely the only comp a rung below the AFL (possibly the SANFL too).

I'm not being callous at all, I'm being honestly blunt.

Apart from your fixture changes, you haven't provided any real solution to what is, and no one can argue, a comp that is favoured toward the vic market.

I have, you don't like them, what else do you want me say?

You view my ideas as 'disrespectful' when I'm being honest and admitting the comp is skewed this way.

To be blunt, the only way to make the comp equitable is less vic teams, you and I both agree that is not possible.

So, it's either accept what we have OR all non vic fans vote with their remotes and their feet. That's pretty much it.

And this is not about 'quality of players - football', it's purely about vic has more numbers and that dictates what we have, like it or lump it.

Highest quality my arse, country sides could challenge WAFL league sides and A grade Ammos and certain PSA teams could challenge a WAFL colts (internal WA problems for another time).

Oh and I did, I said things like soft cap changes and NGA concessions, hell things like COLA existed once, commerical agreements in certain states to be outside cap etc. There's a few things, so that an already Vic comp doesn't have built in features to accommodate all players flocking there. It's a Vic comp absolutely. Folding clubs is not the only option, and if that's not on the cards everyone should just deal?

You don't have ideas, I did and you jumped right over them - your idea is one you float, say it doesn't work and then say that's that. How's that being honest and being blunt? Tbh, it's facetious snarky and slippery from here.

I admit the comp is skewed that way, but there's always room for improvement from both sides mind you.

How about this, can you genuinely come up with something small that doesn't involve folding clubs? Do you have that lense for critical thinking that can suit all parties (or try to) rather than just one?

 

[CrowToon]

Or they can just win the grand final away from home like we did

You won a GF at a neutral venue, that's what most non-Vic people want. Or rather, a rotating venue pre-determined before the season and then if tenant of that ground makes it well that's just how it rolls.

 

[CrowToon]

The AFL at any moment could salvage the comp and bring non-Victorian supporters into a greater engagement with the league if it simply took tangible steps to repair the damage done.

That GF extension was horrific in terms of trust and transparency.

We hear so much bluster about how significant change would cause Victorians to abandon the code in great numbers but that is all scaremongering BS. If Non-vics don't walk away despite the great inequalities of the league then don't pretend Vics would too. The occasional person saying they would doesn't mean many would.

It was part of their justification of keeping Tas out for so long or at least how the media portrayed it. They would look at crowd numbers for 2 part time Victorian teams and wonder why Tasmania didn't flock in the tens of thousands and then cast aspersions on whether a footballing state was 'ready' for a team. They were always ready but they got disillusioned for a long time due to disrespectful treatment and a declining state league due to abandonment from the AFL.

Just make some decent bloody concessions toward equity.

But it won't happen due to the outrage of Victorians. For example in Gather Round where they declared all games neutral and then tossed a coin to decide home team, the Vics want a Showdown to eliminate HGA. This is despite their insistence that the MCG is neutral on GF day and that it has to be the MCG to maximise attendance. Well having the 2 SA teams in different games will maximise attendance moreso than a single Showdown but hey, don't let your old argument get in the way of your new one.

It seems the AFL is too scared to grow the game further and are happy to have widespread Victorian support and enough interstate interest to make the clubs viable and that's it. That's fine, but stop putting up BS gaslighting things like 'build a 100k stadium and you can have the GF' when the deals get done behind everyone's back anyway. Don't talk about crowd numbers etc by asking people to buy into a crooked product first before attempting to fix it.

Even if a state started building a 100k stadium in the mid-2040s to be ready to pitch for the GF at the expiry of the current deal there is no guarantee the AFL won't just come out halfway through the build and announce another 50 years for the MCG. It's such a toxic arrangement and I can't think of many other leagues in the world whereby they sacrifice equity for the sake of tradition when it comes to the most important match of the year.

 

[VicBased]

See this is what I don't get with you, it really is all or nothing - culling Vic clubs is not an option, and you know it isn't. I make other suggestions you ignore and then present the ludicrous impossible option, and of course shut down your own ludicrous suggestion and say we can't solve it. You fair dinkum and would suggest something that helps?

So rather than face my comment about why we can't have night games you guys don't even watch at 7:10/40 our time... you say leave the comp, this is the main crux of my argument, why have we got to cop those small things? The big things like FIFO,

I have no issue with the game being in Melbourne, I do take issue with the likes of yourself insinuating that non Vic clubs are beneath the Vic clubs. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Plus honestly, the people up and about in these threads are Hawthorn, Carlton, and Collingwood fans - teams that benefitted from zoning and didn't allow for equitable rotation and brought on the requirements of the draft. So it's not a Vic thing really, it's just the same old rich people pulling up the ladder behind them and thinking it was all solely their own hard work without a shred of thanks for the people who helped them along the way.

Would you allow a setup where the club's got first pick at players from their state and then the draft started? Probably not, and that's the realm of discussion I operate in not this 'abolish Vic clubs' nonsense.

You do realise you are arguing with a Collingwood supporter don't you?

 

[VicBased]

Highest quality my arse, country sides could challenge WAFL league sides and A grade Ammos and certain PSA teams could challenge a WAFL colts (internal WA problems for another time).

Oh and I did, I said things like soft cap changes and NGA concessions, hell things like COLA existed once, commerical agreements in certain states to be outside cap etc. There's a few things, so that an already Vic comp doesn't have built in features to accommodate all players flocking there. It's a Vic comp absolutely. Folding clubs is not the only option, and if that's not on the cards everyone should just deal?

You don't have ideas, I did and you jumped right over them - your idea is one you float, say it doesn't work and then say that's that. How's that being honest and being blunt? Tbh, it's facetious snarky and slippery from here.

I admit the comp is skewed that way, but there's always room for improvement from both sides mind you.

How about this, can you genuinely come up with something small that doesn't involve folding clubs? Do you have that lense for critical thinking that can suit all parties (or try to) rather than just one?

I made the suggestion once that WA teams travel every 3rd week instead of every second and got howled down by Vic's.
It would actually be a very easy change to achieve and fairer.

 

[Coolangatta]

Another idea: get over this idea that the competition cannot be more than 20 teams and cannot change from its single tier structure. Continue growing the game and add viable expansion clubs every 15-20 years.

Tasmania, Canberra, 3rd Perth, 3rd Adelaide, Northern Australia.

3rd Sydney linked to Newcastle if Giants become a successful club; 2nd Brisbane linked to Sunshine Coast if the Suns succeed; New Zealand.

That’s 26 clubs.

Five conferences:

Victoria East
Victoria West
Western: West Coast, Fremantle, Perth, Adelaide, Port Adelaide, 3rd Adelaide
Eastern: Sydney, GWS, Canberra, 3rd Sydney, Tasmania
Northern: Brisbane, Gold Coast, 2nd Brisbane, Northern Australia, New Zealand

You play your conference team twice plus a couple of other conferences once plus a few other randomised conference teams to get 23 games a year.

Victoria East and Victoria West always play each other once each year.

The teams you didn’t play one season you’d play the next.

What’s the bigger tragedy, for example, if Collingwood doesn’t play Carlton every year or Sydney? The answer is obvious.

Conference champions are top four, make it worthwhile and something for fans to celebrate since winning a flag is now 1/26.

The eight best other teams according to W-L record play off for spots in the top 8 finals. So strong conferences are rewarded over weak ones.

Beyond 2059 start rotating the grand final around Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, and Brisbane, with Melbourne getting it every second year.

Done. No VIC club has to die and expansion doesn’t have to die either.