Apples' Training Reports

[PicaBoo]

Should l have another look in case l missed it

Don't look too much, you might go blind

 

[cityslick1]

At Shaz's height & with his lack of a big tank, he needs to add more than just being a decent link man to lock down a role in the best 22. Sadly, he isnt quick, can't jump like Howe, isnt a dominant one-on-one defender, and his kicking has so far been average & is overated by many in my opinion. No dart like 55m passes from shaz, or elite ability shown on both sides of his body. His kicks are more often safe & rarely offensive.

Yes, he's building his confidence back up & is a smart footballer, but the fact that he is still no guarantee to be playing round 1, and is being compared to Langdon for input / quality in forum debates tells you that he is well below our expectations for a pick 6, 4 years into his career.

& before you say its irrelevant where he was picked... I disagree, as high picks are what you build your future list around, & we passed on better players like Patrick Cripps, Matt Crouch & Ben Brown to land him, who are all All-Aus quality. & ok, we wouldve picked Aish if we didn't go Shaz, who is performing at at even lower level now... but we need more from these players to justify their selections & traded value. Unless he improves & develops weapons, Shaz is at risk of becoming a permanent fringe player, who has few characteristics that suit the modern game.

 

[Stoods]

At Shaz's height & with his lack of a big tank, he needs to add more than just being a decent link man to lock down a role in the best 22. Sadly, he isnt quick, can't jump like Howe, isnt a dominant one-on-one defender, and his kicking has so been average & is overated by many in my opinion. No dart like 55m passes from shaz, or elite ability shown on both sides of his body. His kicks are more often safe & rarely offensive.

Yes, he's building his confidence back up & is a smart footballer, but the fact that he is still no guarantee to be playing round 1, and is being compared to Langdon for input / quality in forum debates tells you that he is well below our expectations for a pick 6, 4 years into his career.

& before you say its irrelevant where he was picked... I disagree, as high picks are what you build your future list around, & we passed on better players like Patrick Cripps, Matt Crouch & Ben Brown to land him, who are all All-Aus quality. & ok, we wouldve picked Aish if we didn't go Shaz, who is performing at at even lower level now... but we need more from these players to justify their selections & traded value. Unless he improves & develops weapons, Shaz is at risk of becoming a permanent fringe player, who has few characteristics that suit the modern game.

I dont see Shaz ever becoming that lightning quick rebounding defender, or that high flying aerial type player. Shaz's strengths lie in his reading of the play and his intercept marking. I reckon this will be the year we start seeing why he was rated so highly because it sounds like he is finally getting a good run at it.

I know people say we keep using injuries as an excuse with him, but the truth is it isn't an excuse it is fact. He has had a bad ran ever since he was drafted, no matter who you are it is going to halt your development.

I get the frustration, i do. A top 10 draft pick who was talked up very high, we could of had someone better instead, it is what it is though, we didnt know he was going to do his ACL twice. He is still young though which is a bonus, so plenty of upside has to remain. Let's hope this is the year we see it. I think it will be.

 

[sr36]

That sums up the majority of our defensive players for long periods of many games but how much of that is
1. dictated by the work rate of players further afield and a subsequent lack of alternatives; and/or
2. a lack of senior experience in some of those defenders and a subsequent lack of confidence to take on much riskier options.

I'm no blaming Shaz for this part of our game, I'm just saying don't tell me about our defenders stats.

 

[Old Spice]

That sums up the majority of our defensive players for long periods of many games but how much of that is
1. dictated by the work rate of players further afield and a subsequent lack of alternatives; and/or
2. a lack of senior experience in some of those defenders and a subsequent lack of confidence to take on much riskier options.

I don't agree with this. Others will try and find an option, including Adams who then gets burned by people on here if one stuffs up (damned if you do, damned if you don't). Smith will switch play with a long kick to the fat side, again with some degree of risk. Maynard will do it. Scharenberg does not do it imv. Every kick and possession is calculated to to be safe - usually short - and not reflect poorly on him. Statistically it doesn't - as this discussion clearly shows - but it's not good play and holds things up, allows opposition coverage.

This is nothing to do with the knees. I can understand reticence about smacking into a pack and slowly easing into that (although I suspect that's not his go). But bolder decision making is mental; it requires less safe, stodgy play. I can see he doesn't want to stuff up and to stay in the team, and there's some grace allowed there I think after so long out of the side, but this year he has to do more with it. Ditto Aish. Safe individually is not good for the team.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Players need to feel part of the team before they play their best footy. Shaz isn't at that point yet where he's established in the best 22. So the criticisms above are fairly pointless until we get to see what Shaz is capable of doing once he gets a free run of injury free footy and some continuity of playing each week in the senior 22.

 

[Old Spice]

Players need to feel part of the team before they play their best footy. Shaz isn't at that point yet where he's established in the best 22. So the criticisms above are fairly pointless until we get to see what Shaz is capable of doing once he gets a free run of injury free footy and some continuity of playing each week in the senior 22.

Swings and roundabouts. He'll become integral to the team if he plays with more dash. I get your point but we also can't make our play stodgy and easily defensible by catering to this issue.

 

[jackcass]

I don't agree with this. Others will try and find an option, including Adams who then gets burned by people on here if one stuffs up (damned if you do, damned if you don't). Smith will switch play with a long kick to the fat side, again with some degree of risk. Maynard will do it. Scharenberg does not do it imv. Every kick and possession is calculated to to be safe - usually short - and not reflect poorly on him. Statistically it doesn't - as this discussion clearly shows - but it's not good play and holds things up, allows opposition coverage.

This is nothing to do with the knees. I can understand reticence about smacking into a pack and slowly easing into that (although I suspect that's not his go). But bolder decision making is mental; it requires less safe, stodgy play. I can see he doesn't want to stuff up and to stay in the team, and there's some grace allowed there I think after so long out of the side, but this year he has to do more with it. Ditto Aish. Safe individually is not good for the team.

Happy to agree to disagree.

I didn't suggest all players all the time but Dunn is about the only player in our defence who is immune to it.

Adams plays predominantly midfield and I did say defenders. It is telling that your primary go-to example happens to be a midfielder rather than a defender.

On Scharenberg specifically, I will wait to see how he goes this year with his kicking and I hope to see improved power and penetration but coming off 2x knee injuries I wasn't overly fussed that those aspects were down in 2017.

 

[Soups]

I see a lot have moved from bagging Maynard to Shaz. It’s the one gripe I have with this board. People are quick to knock players that need time to develop. Shaz has missed so much football we aren’t going to know what direction he will be headed until he plays a block of consecutive games. Until then I don’t think the criticism is warranted.

 

[Gone Critical]

I think Shaz took steps through his AFL games in 2017 to become more attacking by foot. This will continue to evolve and he has the tools to make it a strength. Likewise his aerial work is fine, both at VFL and AFL level he has an attitude to go for the bal in the air and take some risks. It's his defence, tracking of an opponent and attack on the ground where he needs to develop more intent. I think 2017 was marked as a year of little expectation, a time to get a full season

In 2018 I am hopeful he can make real ground in those deficient areas.

 

[Old Spice]

Happy to agree to disagree.

I didn't suggest all players all the time but Dunn is about the only player in our defence who is immune to it.

Adams plays predominantly midfield and I did say defenders. It is telling that your primary go-to example happens to be a midfielder rather than a defender.

On Scharenberg specifically, I will wait to see how he goes this year with his kicking and I hope to see improved power and penetration but coming off 2x knee injuries I wasn't overly fussed that those aspects were down in 2017.

I mean Adams coming out of defence and trying to generate run. Maynard is a defender, Smith's a defender, so not really sure how you deduced I pointed to mids. If you want more defenders who take risks, Dunn and Howe come to mind as well. Most of the defenders except Scharenberg.

 

[Old Spice]

I see a lot have moved from bagging Maynard to Shaz. It’s the one gripe I have with this board. People are quick to knock players that need time to develop. Shaz has missed so much football we aren’t going to know what direction he will be headed until he plays a block of consecutive games. Until then I don’t think the criticism is warranted.

Not me. I've been a Maynard man from the start.

But it's a good talking point to raise. I think we need players who take risks with disposals. The problem is that when players do take risks and it doesn't pay off, people on here bag them out.

Safe, conservative play is about self preservation - not exposing yourself and just making up the weight.

People on here should be more mindful and appreciative of players who take it on and have to realise that occasionally that will fail. That's when people on here make a fetish of it. An errant kick suddenly becomes they are shit players, when in fact they are taking the game on and exposing themselves to a higher chance of failure.

 

[CFC2010]

I mean Adams coming out of defence and trying to generate run. Maynard is a defender, Smith's a defender, so not really sure how you deduced I pointed to mids. If you want more defenders who take risks, Dunn and Howe come to mind as well. Most of the defenders except Scharenberg.

 

[Brad Goodman]

He's got an uncanny ability to hit balls in congestion in dangerous spots and scoop them up cleanly.

They say the same thing about Jenna Jameson.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

It was a joke guys. Smith and Oxley will be de-listed at years end and Thomas will be very lucky to be on our list. All likely to be de-listed. I should have thrown in Blair and Mayne for good measure.

Unfortunate thing is, head to the trade board.

 

[JB1975]

Maybe we can all just acknowledge that Scharenberg --like the majority of the list-- will need to improve if Collingwood itself is going to improve. Whether or not anyone thinks he's best 22, he'll get his chance (if his body lets him) and then we'll form a better assessment of a player who has played less than 15 games after two knee reconstructions.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

Not me. I've been a Maynard man from the start.

But it's a good talking point to raise. I think we need players who take risks with disposals. The problem is that when players do take risks and it doesn't pay off, people on here bag them out.

Safe, conservative play is about self preservation - not exposing yourself and just making up the weight.

People on here should be more mindful and appreciative of players who take it on and have to realise that occasionally that will fail. That's when people on here make a fetish of it. An errant kick suddenly becomes they are shit players, when in fact they are taking the game on and exposing themselves to a higher chance of failure.

100% I agree, we need players, who are good users of the ball, to take risks.

What frustrates the average fan is those with sub-par footskills constantly looking for the hail-mary pass. Its a circumstance where you need to know your limitations.

I would encourage Jeremy Howe, as he does, to take the game on by foot every time. You're going to get the odd mistake, but thats just footy. As for someone like Taylor Adams, just know your limits.

 

[Quicky]

I don't agree with this. Others will try and find an option, including Adams who then gets burned by people on here if one stuffs up (damned if you do, damned if you don't). Smith will switch play with a long kick to the fat side, again with some degree of risk. Maynard will do it. Scharenberg does not do it imv. Every kick and possession is calculated to to be safe - usually short - and not reflect poorly on him. Statistically it doesn't - as this discussion clearly shows - but it's not good play and holds things up, allows opposition coverage.

This is nothing to do with the knees. I can understand reticence about smacking into a pack and slowly easing into that (although I suspect that's not his go). But bolder decision making is mental; it requires less safe, stodgy play. I can see he doesn't want to stuff up and to stay in the team, and there's some grace allowed there I think after so long out of the side, but this year he has to do more with it. Ditto Aish. Safe individually is not good for the team.

I reckon the criticism over Shaz's intent when kicking is justified however I reckon he was beginning to take greater risks towards the end of the year and this isn't alway's recognised. I recall some beautiful medium distance angled kicks into the corridor hitting targets. He has it in him and needs to do more of it.

I also think his intercept stats, 3rd best by game in the team, distinguishes him from some of his contemporaries. Intercepts are one way to dispossess the opposition and are as valuable in some ways as contested possessions.

He has some really good qualities as a player that just need to click together and I think we should be bullish based on what he sporadically shows in game. We need to see more of it. But given he's two knee recos down, 14 games and 1 full preseason in, it isn't really surprising it hasn't all clicked just yet.

 

[Old Spice]

I reckon the criticism over Shaz's intent when kicking is justified however I reckon he was beginning to take greater risks towards the end of the year and this isn't alway's recognised. I recall some beautiful medium distance angled kicks into the corridor hitting targets. He has it in him and needs to do more of it.

I also think his intercept stats, 3rd best by game in the team, distinguishes him from some of his contemporaries. Intercepts are one way to dispossess the opposition and are as valuable in some ways as contested possessions.

He has some really good qualities as a player that just need to click together and I think we should be bullish based on what he sporadically shows in game. We need to see more of it. But given he's two knee recos down, 14 games and 1 full preseason it isn't really surprising it hasn't all clicked just yet.

Yeah, that may be so. I might be forgetting some quality kicks and I agree it's about a build. If you sensed he was improving, that's good. I must say I didn't notice, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

It's probably a case of looking for evidence to substantiate your view. Happens across Bigfooty to us all.

 

[Old Spice]

100% I agree, we need players, who are good users of the ball, to take risks.

What frustrates the average fan is those with sub-par footskills constantly looking for the hail-mary pass. Its a circumstance where you need to know your limitations.

I would encourage Jeremy Howe, as he does, to take the game on by foot every time. You're going to get the odd mistake, but thats just footy. As for someone like Taylor Adams, just know your limits.

I don't think Adams kicking is that bad honestly. I mean I wouldn't have him taking kick outs, but he's not limited to just dishing the ball out by hand. I think his kicking is markedly better than it was.

 

[sr36]

Players need to feel part of the team before they play their best footy. Shaz isn't at that point yet where he's established in the best 22. So the criticisms above are fairly pointless until we get to see what Shaz is capable of doing once he gets a free run of injury free footy and some continuity of playing each week in the senior 22.

I don't think concerns around Shaz will be addressed simply by him feeling more comfortable in the team. I think he needs to be pushed out of his comfort zone. I dare say he is comfortable in the VFL and I have the same concerns about his style of play there. At the moment, in both the AFL and VFL, he is a predominately uncontested accumulator who doesn't apply much pressure or impact many contests and doesn't do anything with the footy. I just think playing this style of game offers very little to a team.

I have little doubt if he can change his mindset and style, he will become a good AFL player as he has some areas where he is excellent - game reading, awareness in traffic, ball handling. His disposal also looks sharp. For a bloke who has played so little footy since Under 18s, the speed which he has adapted to the pace of AFL has been fabulous. If they can persuade him to attack the footy more often and/or be more attacking with the footy, he'll be a good player, but until they can produce this change of style, he will offer very little. I just really hope that they are targeting these areas and are not allowing him to play his comfortable game.

 

[jackcass]

I mean Adams coming out of defence and trying to generate run. Maynard is a defender, Smith's a defender, so not really sure how you deduced I pointed to mids. If you want more defenders who take risks, Dunn and Howe come to mind as well. Most of the defenders except Scharenberg.

Adams rarely played as a defender with an opponent, more often than not coming off the back of the square as a +1 midfielder which hardly counts.

As I say, happy to agree to disagree, all of our defenders bar Dunn do it to some degree.

I also think you're over-stating Smith's capacity when you call him a defender. Playing in defence doesn't make him that.

 

[jackcass]

I reckon the criticism over Shaz's intent when kicking is justified however I reckon he was beginning to take greater risks towards the end of the year and this isn't alway's recognised. I recall some beautiful medium distance angled kicks into the corridor hitting targets. He has it in him and needs to do more of it.

I also think his intercept stats, 3rd best by game in the team, distinguishes him from some of his contemporaries. Intercepts are one way to dispossess the opposition and are as valuable in some ways as contested possessions.

He has some really good qualities as a player that just need to click together and I think we should be bullish based on what he sporadically shows in game. We need to see more of it. But given he's two knee recos down, 14 games and 1 full preseason it isn't really surprising it hasn't all clicked just yet.

Started to hit an occasional pack for a contested mark as well. Baby steps,

 

[Old Spice]

Adams rarely played as a defender with an opponent, more often than not coming off the back of the square as a +1 midfielder which hardly counts.

As I say, happy to agree to disagree, all of our defenders bar Dunn do it to some degree.

I also think you're over-stating Smith's capacity when you call him a defender. Playing in defence doesn't make him that.

Not really certain what relevance this has to the discussion point which is that Scharenberg doesn't take risks with his disposals. He's often in space and still takes a safe option.

Whether Adams has followed a midfielder into the forward line or how he comes to find himself there, he still takes the game on with his disposal.

As do other players coming out of there, that's the point.

 

[jackcass]

Not really certain what relevance this has to the discussion point which is that Scharenberg doesn't take risks with his disposals. He's often in space and still takes a safe option.

Whether Adams has followed a midfielder into the forward line or how he comes to find himself there, he still takes the game on with his disposal.

As do other players coming out of there, that's the point.

Don't recall suggesting players don't take the game on. I was responding to a specific post by SR36 about Scharenberg not doing it to which I responded that the majority of our defence do likewise and offered a couple of reasons why I think that occurs as discussion points. I also made no mention of where individually any player sits on the frequency continuum other than to state Dunn doesn't do it. You're the one who chose to take my post to task.

At the risk of repeating myself, happy to agree to disagree (again!).