Are Led Zeppelin over hyped?

[AndSmithMustScore]

Smithmustscore has a bustle in his hedgerow over a few words.

Tolkien on drugs was our Robert.

 

[evo]

hehe.

You can be worse things in life.Particularly if your job is writing heavy metal lyrics

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Well it's a bit hard to shine as a guitar player,when you're playing the bass.

If Beck didn't have such a massive ego(preumably pumped up in his day by the likes of your ilk )
then maybe he would've let Page hold his rightful position as lead guitar in the Yardbirds.

Just speculating.

Speculation is good it breeds discussion.

Fortunately Jimmy only lasted as the bass guitarist for a little while (would have been a terrible waste of his talents).

But the thing was Jimmy and Beck were pretty good mates and it was only because of Beck that he joined.

So i'm not sure his ego would have played a part with Jimmy.

The difference is between them at the time Beck was insane on pushing his guitar to the limits, always has been, always will.

It's why he's not really a very successful artist as such because his only talent lies in mastering the guitar.

One listen to Hi-ho silver lining proves this

Page imo had less talent on the guitar technically but had more creative talent as an artist over Beck.

But that's jsut my opinion.

Plus is was more about the money for Page than for Beck

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

hehe.

You can be worse things in life.Particularly if your job is writing heavy metal lyrics

Well true, if you are going to immitate and artist immitate one of the best.

I just think it's a shame they didn't stay away from the whole Crowley influenced drug ****ed shit.

I would loved for them to actually go the other way and put out an out an out blues album.

I mean there was the blues elements to their albums, but just a full on one would have been interesting.

 

[evo]

ASMS.Back when Beck was in the Yardbirds all he was doing was re-arranging combinations of riffs he learnt form countless bluesmen before him,going all the way back to Robert Johnson.True?

Therefore,by your logic,he was doing the exact same thing you accuse Jimbob of doing later,in Led Zep.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

ASMS.Back when Beck was in the Yardbirds all he was doing was re-arranging combinations of riffs he learnt form countless bluesmen before him,going all the way back to Robert Johnson.True?

Therefore,by your logic,he was doing the exact same thing you accuse Jimbob of doing later,in Led Zep.

Exaclty he was doing what page did, taking other people riffs and rearranging them.

That's why i stated Beck actually doesnt have much talent besides his guitar work as an artist.

But he's probably been one of the most experiemental guitarists ever, as he never bothered with genres.

He pioneered the wah pedal and was at the forefront of distortion innovation in the 60's.

Beck get's his respect from being such a brilliant technician on the guitar and by doing it without using a pick or any unusual equipment.

Satriani once said if he could take a guitar lesson from one man in the world it would be Beck.

Plus Beck is the inspiration for Nigel Tufnel from Spinal Tap

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

There's only one Beck

Odelay.

 

[Heisenberg_]

It's totally irrelevant anyway, we all know the most overhyped band of all time is Queen.

Blasphemy.
That title belongs to Metallica anyway

 

[Jimi]

Couple of Dave Grohl quotes regarding Page.

"Heavy metal would not exist without Led Zeppelin, and if it did, it would suck. "

"In 1968 and '69, there was some freaky shit going on, but Zeppelin were the freakiest. I consider Jimmy Page freakier than Jimi Hendrix. Hendrix was a genius on fire, whereas Page was a genius possessed. Zeppelin concerts and albums were like exorcisms for them. People had their asses blown out by Hendrix and Jeff Beck and Eric Clapton, but Page took it to a whole new level, and he did it in such a beautifully human and imperfect way. He plays the guitar like an old bluesman on acid. "

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Couple of Dave Grohl quotes regarding Page.

"Heavy metal would not exist without Led Zeppelin, and if it did, it would suck. "

"In 1968 and '69, there was some freaky shit going on, but Zeppelin were the freakiest. I consider Jimmy Page freakier than Jimi Hendrix. Hendrix was a genius on fire, whereas Page was a genius possessed. Zeppelin concerts and albums were like exorcisms for them. People had their asses blown out by Hendrix and Jeff Beck and Eric Clapton, but Page took it to a whole new level, and he did it in such a beautifully human and imperfect way. He plays the guitar like an old bluesman on acid. "

So it's bloody Page's fault for Nirvana

Wasn't Grohl the drummer?

 

[evo]

Wasn't Grohl the drummer?

He was also a highly successful musician,including guitar player.Which is more than you or I could claim.

I say we cede to his better judgement on the matter.

I do believe the term 'genius' was used to refer to Jimbob.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

He was also a highly successful musician,including guitar player.Which is more than you or I could claim.

I say we cede to his better judgement on the matter.

I do believe the term 'genius' was used to refer to Jimbob.

Oh i wasn't questtioning Dave's opinion.

I was just taking Satriani's over Dave's when it came to guitar issues

 

[Jimi]

Oh i wasn't questtioning Dave's opinion.

I was just taking Satriani's over Dave's when it came to guitar issues

what did Satch say about Jimmy Page?

AFAIK Page was one of Satriani's biggest influences.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

what did Satch say about Jimmy Page?

AFAIK Page was one of Satriani's biggest influences.

Yup Beck and Page were big influences to him.

Joe Satriani claimed that if he could take a lesson from one player, it'd be Beck, saying "One of the most amazing things about Jeff is that he sounds even more like Jeff Beck today than he did before... He plays a classic guitar, doesn't use a pick, doesn't use any unusual equipment -- yet he sounds more amazing and pure with each outing."

It's not a slight on Page to say he's not as technically brilliant with a guitar as Beck.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Overrated? Name another band who can say straight up that their first 6 albums are all bonafide classics?

Black Sabbath.

And a band that has songs like Dazed & Confused, Achilles Last Stand, No Quarter, Stairway to Heaven, When the Levee Breaks, Black Dog, Rock & Roll etc etc to their name is definitely up there with the best of all time.

But I do agree there is too much filler. With the best bands I can listen to their albums from start to finish, Black Sabbath, Electric Wizard, The Doors, Pink Floyd, Tool, Radiohead, whereas I find there are songs on Led Zep albums I tend to skip.

 

[Carlos]

Oh i wasn't questtioning Dave's opinion.

I was just taking Satriani's over Dave's when it came to guitar issues

But on drum issues, we should pay attention.

There was nothing like him before Zeppelin and there will never, ever be another Bonham. The influence that man has had on what came after him is like no one else. The man is God.

And yes, this may cloud my judgement a little on how i rate his band, but there will IMO, also never be another Zeppelin.

Yeah, they had a few dud tracks over their albums. But there is a lot more to a band than what they do in a studio. They are IMO the greatest live band that ever took a stage. Ever.

I would give anything to be able to step back in time and see then live.

 

[Papa G]

But on drum issues, we should pay attention.

There was nothing like him before Zeppelin and there will never, ever be another Bonham. The influence that man has had on what came after him is like no one else. The man is God.

And yes, this may cloud my judgement a little on how i rate his band, but there will IMO, also never be another Zeppelin.

Yeah, they had a few dud tracks over their albums. But there is a lot more to a band than what they do in a studio. They are IMO the greatest live band that ever took a stage. Ever.

I would give anything to be able to step back in time and see then live.

Led Zeppelin Madison Square Garden 1976.

I've heard John McEnroe say that being at this concert was better than winning Wimbledon

 

[UpForGrabs]

I mean (yes i know iv'e done it again ) Dave Davies was only 17 when he ripped that groundbreaking guitar solo in You Really Got me.

You do realise that Jimmy Page pre-LZ was a top session guitarist and one of the songs that he played guitar on was none other than...

'You Really Got Me' by The Kinks?

It's Dave's solo alright, but Ray Davies was such a crap guitar player they had to call in Jimmy to do the work instead. You don't get to be such an in-demand sessioner if you're sloppy.

Page doesn't get much credit as a producer either - his LZ work aside, the work he did capturing the Les Paul w/ Marshall amp on John Mayall's Bluesbreakers single 'I'm Your Witchdoctor' (with Eric Clapton on guitar) is underrated. Especially considering he was only 21 at the time.

As for the Zeppelin years - Page was a brilliant writer and creator of awesome riffs. Although it gets derided as one of their weaker albums, Presence (which I love) is a Jimmy Page tour-de-force. The guitar production and guitar playing on that are top notch (as was Bonzo's drumming - as always).

I also don't get the comparisons with The Who. One was a rock and roll/60s soul inspired group with one genius songwriter, the other was a blues-based group whose songwriting contributions of the other three completely outshine the contributions of Moon, Daltrey and Entwhistle.

The drummer comparison also makes me scratch my head. Both were completely different styled drummers. Moon had a set that had a number of pieces closer to 100, whereas Bonham preferred to keep his kit minimal. It's easy to say that neither of them lag behind the other, but simply because their groups existed around the same time and both their drummers had early retirements should they be constantly compared.

Both bass players were the solid rocks. JPJ (if comparing) would win based on not his bass playing (if that were the only deciding factor then the result would be turned around), but for his other work on keyboards, pianos, songwriting (the main riff to 'Black Dog' for starters, not to mention 'No Quarter') and uncredited production and arranging.

As for the singers, both Plant and Daltrey were/are my least-liked members of both groups.

(Besides, you can't complain about Zeppelin filler when The Who put out It's Hard and Face Dances, most of which (i.e everything besides 2 or 3 tracks) gives filler a bad name.)

FWIW, Zeppelin's catalogue (only 73 songs long) is one of rock's towering acheivements. Their lesser moments outshine the best of what most bands struggle to come up with. If they 'appropriated' songs for their own, then so be it. I'd much rather hear 'Dazed and Confused' than Jake Holmes' 'I'm Confused' anyday. And if they were sloppy? Who cares? They never set out to be Steely Dan or any other bands who were technically proficient to the point of sterility.

To call them overrated is completely off-base. History has proven that the millions of records they sold in their active years (1969-80) were no fluke whatsoever, and along with the Beatles they are one of the rare acts (especially in Australia) whose popularity has continued to increase as the years pass. Seems as though people continue to rate them just that right amount. Having a concert hit #1 on the US charts 30 years after it was recorded and over 20 years since the band dissolved goes to show that popular opinion is still on the money.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

You do realise that Jimmy Page pre-LZ was a top session guitarist and one of the songs that he played guitar on was none other than...

'You Really Got Me' by The Kinks?

It's Dave's solo alright, but Ray Davies was such a crap guitar player they had to call in Jimmy to do the work instead. You don't get to be such an in-demand sessioner if you're sloppy.

Page doesn't get much credit as a producer either - his LZ work aside, the work he did capturing the Les Paul w/ Marshall amp on John Mayall's Bluesbreakers single 'I'm Your Witchdoctor' (with Eric Clapton on guitar) is underrated. Especially considering he was only 21 at the time.

As for the Zeppelin years - Page was a brilliant writer and creator of awesome riffs. Although it gets derided as one of their weaker albums, Presence (which I love) is a Jimmy Page tour-de-force. The guitar production and guitar playing on that are top notch (as was Bonzo's drumming - as always).

I also don't get the comparisons with The Who. One was a rock and roll/60s soul inspired group with one genius songwriter, the other was a blues-based group whose songwriting contributions of the other three completely outshine the contributions of Moon, Daltrey and Entwhistle.

The drummer comparison also makes me scratch my head. Both were completely different styled drummers. Moon had a set that had a number of pieces closer to 100, whereas Bonham preferred to keep his kit minimal. It's easy to say that neither of them lag behind the other, but simply because their groups existed around the same time and both their drummers had early retirements should they be constantly compared.

Both bass players were the solid rocks. JPJ (if comparing) would win based on not his bass playing (if that were the only deciding factor then the result would be turned around), but for his other work on keyboards, pianos, songwriting (the main riff to 'Black Dog' for starters, not to mention 'No Quarter') and uncredited production and arranging.

As for the singers, both Plant and Daltrey were/are my least-liked members of both groups.

(Besides, you can't complain about Zeppelin filler when The Who put out It's Hard and Face Dances, most of which (i.e everything besides 2 or 3 tracks) gives filler a bad name.)

FWIW, Zeppelin's catalogue (only 73 songs long) is one of rock's towering acheivements. Their lesser moments outshine the best of what most bands struggle to come up with. If they 'appropriated' songs for their own, then so be it. I'd much rather hear 'Dazed and Confused' than Jake Holmes' 'I'm Confused' anyday. And if they were sloppy? Who cares? They never set out to be Steely Dan or any other bands who were technically proficient to the point of sterility.

To call them overrated is completely off-base. History has proven that the millions of records they sold in their active years (1969-80) were no fluke whatsoever, and along with the Beatles they are one of the rare acts (especially in Australia) whose popularity has continued to increase as the years pass. Seems as though people continue to rate them just that right amount. Having a concert hit #1 on the US charts 30 years after it was recorded and over 20 years since the band dissolved goes to show that popular opinion is still on the money.

Sorry but that's not correct.

Dave Davies played that solo.

Page was only used for rhythm backing.

However, the story has circulated for decades that the solo was played by Jimmy Page, who later joined The Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin. Page was in fact hired by Kinks producer Shel Talmy as a session rhythm guitarist on a handful of tracks on the Kinks' first album, but those sessions took place several weeks after the "You Really Got Me" session. Page has never publicly taken credit for playing the song's guitar solo, going so far as to state in a 1977 interview that "I didn't play on 'You Really Got Me' and that's what pisses him (Ray Davies) off."

I won't go through it all again but i'd just like to point out iv'e always said through this thread i rate them as one of the best bands ever.

The point of thread was that i feel they are overstated by some kind of hero worship that means people can't see past all the smoke and mirrors to see that yes they were great, but there have been bands that as complete packages surpass LZ.


Read this. One of the best review sites ever IMO, this guy truly knows his shit.

http://starling.rinet.ru/music/ledzep.htm

But for those who can't be bothered to read it:

General Evaluation:

Listenability: 4/5. One point off for Robbie Plant ('does anyone remember laughter') and all the generic late Seventies contributions.

Resonance: 3/5. The rockers are great, but Led Zep ballads are very hit-and-miss, so fake at times... Why couldn't they have all their ballads similar to 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You'?

Originality: 4/5. One point needs to be taken off because Led Zeppelin weren't the ONLY or even the FIRST originators of heavy metal as we know it. Check out Jeff Beck, for instance.

Adequacy: 3/5. Robert Plant totally ruins this one for me.

Diversity: 3/5. This one's pretty obvious. They tried being really diverse a couple of times, but I'm NOT gonna bring the diversity of Houses Of The Holy in their favour.

Overall: 3.4 = C on the rating scale. Close to four stars, but not touching.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

But on drum issues, we should pay attention.

There was nothing like him before Zeppelin and there will never, ever be another Bonham. The influence that man has had on what came after him is like no one else. The man is God.

And yes, this may cloud my judgement a little on how i rate his band, but there will IMO, also never be another Zeppelin.

Yeah, they had a few dud tracks over their albums. But there is a lot more to a band than what they do in a studio. They are IMO the greatest live band that ever took a stage. Ever.

I would give anything to be able to step back in time and see then live.

Live performaces are probably down to personal taste even more so than studio albums.

So while you say LZ are, i say The Who are.

So perhaps leave it at the 2 greatest live bands ever

 

[Suspense]

Adequacy: 3/5. Robert Plant totally ruins this one for me.

Well, I'm convinced...

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Well, I'm convinced...

Plant's voice resonates kok rock.

Black Dog could have been sung by Vince Neill.

So i'll give Plant his dues, he's the prototype for all those 80's glam rock bands lead vocalists.

You know those higher pitched whiney moany voiced ones.

 

[Papa G]

Sorry but that's not correct.

Dave Davies played that solo.

Page was only used for rhythm backing.



I won't go through it all again but i'd just like to point out iv'e always said through this thread i rate them as one of the best bands ever.

The point of thread was that i feel they are overstated by some kind of hero worship that means people can't see past all the smoke and mirrors to see that yes they were great, but there have been bands that as complete packages surpass LZ.


Read this. One of the best review sites ever IMO, this guy truly knows his shit.

http://starling.rinet.ru/music/ledzep.htm

But for those who can't be bothered to read it:

General Evaluation:

Listenability: 4/5. One point off for Robbie Plant ('does anyone remember laughter') and all the generic late Seventies contributions.

Resonance: 3/5. The rockers are great, but Led Zep ballads are very hit-and-miss, so fake at times... Why couldn't they have all their ballads similar to 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You'?

Originality: 4/5. One point needs to be taken off because Led Zeppelin weren't the ONLY or even the FIRST originators of heavy metal as we know it. Check out Jeff Beck, for instance.

Adequacy: 3/5. Robert Plant totally ruins this one for me.

Diversity: 3/5. This one's pretty obvious. They tried being really diverse a couple of times, but I'm NOT gonna bring the diversity of Houses Of The Holy in their favour.

Overall: 3.4 = C on the rating scale. Close to four stars, but not touching.

So we finally get down to where you've got your information/opinion about Led Zeppelin. You have accussed Led Zeppelin a lot of ripping off others, but after reading this review, one could accuse you of the same.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

So we finally get down to where you've got your information/opinion about Led Zeppelin. You have accussed Led Zeppelin a lot of ripping off others, but after reading this review, one could accuse you of the same.

Hardly ripping it.

I actually don't agree with his C rating.

On that rating scale i'd warrant them a B.

But truly dude have you ever quoted a newspaper or book in your life?

It's one thing to quote something, it's another to make money off something that's not your idea.

But for the record i only have 5 LZ vinyls in my collection, the later ones after reading up on and d/l a few songs from i'd never buy.

 

[Fossie 32]

Plant's voice resonates kok rock.

Black Dog could have been sung by Vince Neill.

So i'll give Plant his dues, he's the prototype for all those 80's glam rock bands lead vocalists.

You know those higher pitched whiney moany voiced ones.

Very harsh. Plant actually had an amazing voice which was one of the strengths of their better work. But I agree sometimes his *vocals* were annoying - not his voice as such but the way he chose to use it.... eg various ad libbing live efforts..... though the one picked out above ['does anyone remember laughter?'] I thought fitted in well.

It would be like if Jeff Beck played C&W, that would probaby not be enjoyable, though he would still be a fine axeman.