Are we good enough?

[Turbocat]

After the Sydney game, I can see the site has several posts that vent the type of frustration I’m very familiar with

- Milburn on forward line
-Almost no clearances from the centre
-Gardiner falling down when under pressure
-always having someone not fit, coming back from a lay off , not in form...

can I add my own. Are we good enough?

I ask a question , not to vent which I have done on occasion and which I don’t blame anyone for, but because for some time I’ve have wondered if we really have the “Full Monty” when under quality pressure in big games under all conditions.

I picked the Cats to finish on the top the ladder in of our in our pre-season Big Footy guess. Why ,one might ask? I think and still think if we had a season like the Swans last year with no injuries we could finish 1 or 2. Of course now, looking at my precognitive effort , I feel I copped out by putting the codicil of injuries in my guess. It was almost out there with the Brother's Grim and their many assorted fairytales to believe that we would run through the full year without having some players go down. So with that in mind are we good enough? Good enough to get the job done, no matter what?

Good enough to win inspite of injuries, inspite of form, inspite of the best opposition. Now some might say this question is reactionary, I suppose it is to a point but really haven’t we all had concerns over our structure, over our makeup , over our true depth?

Everyone’s favourite bugbear , Jack from P has been screaming about our lack of a key forward for ages, usually his particular point of anguish is H. Correct me if I’m wrong here Jack but basically you Jack do not think H is good enough. In fact I've never disputed that H was short of being a gun forward, only that he was our best option available. Jack and I and infact several others have many enjoyable disagreements over H. I’m sure all of us would prefer to have a forward of the quality of Jonathon Brown or a Tredrae but as we don’t have an obvious choice we tend to debate over our best preferred choice from our list. Our forwardline deficiencies have been apparent to most but conversely IMO probably least responsible for most of our losses of recent times. To me the finger of guilt needs to be pointed towards the whole side. Just how good are we? Not just our forwards but our backs and players in the middle, in fact are they good enough?

Our backs , long scene as our strength is far from the strength some seem to think. Yes Scarlett is Scarlett but even he has poor nights. Egan has be resolute in his effort although he has been shown up as a player that still is far from perfect. Our smaller backs seem to be pushed to provide to much rebound which then weakens our defence.

Ours mids are a concern. Why do we lose so many centre bounce take aways. I’ve been previously happy to attribute some blame to our rucks but last night Ottens and Blake won more than our fair share of taps. So why? Do really have enough quality in and around our ball ups.Ling, Corey, Bartel and Kelly all have ability but do they as a core group match the type of groups that we have to beat to win.For some reason we just don’t get the ball away and this is one area that has not improved with our gain in games played.

I have wondered for sometime if our list which gained so much inertia from 99 and 2001 , needed another year like that to top off our side. We have structured our makeup on Brisbane but they had one really poor year with Voss and the rest of them in 98(?) before their final upward surge. Do we still need one more quality draft to invigorate our list and if we do, it may pay to think long term this year as it looks like this year will probably the best draft since 01. I’m not sure, and Id be interested to see what all you other fine judges think on the subject. Yes we were flogged against Hawthorn and beaten by the Swans but looking past that are we good enough?

 

[RoosterLad]

After you won the NAB Cup you were all getting excited, hugging each other etc etc and i said... make sure you make it count in the real season. Nobody cares who wins the tin cup when the season gets underway, the fact is the Crows have 8 players out and beat the top team by 77 yesterday (the team which beat you last week) and now the Cats are really struggling. I even tipped them for top 4 and at least a Prelim Final... if you dont start winning games soon the top 4 spot will be a difficult target!

 

[nananana catman]

Our chances, and pre-season predictions are all based on our best 22. It isn't an excuse for not hitting targets and lazy football, but the current team we have isn't a team that can win a grand final.

We despertaely need a stronger more committed, more skilled team on the park. Then we can talk Turkey.

 

[geelong_boy]

In reply to Turbocat:

Yes. At full strength we are good enough. Just like any other team, if you take out a decent wack of any other team's best players like Geelong has had out recently then they it will have a harsh impact. For any team to go all the way they need pretty much their best 22 playing, and of course a bit of luck. We only need to look to last year. The Swans had a dream run with injuries in the lead up to the finals. Recently I did some research and in their last nine games (including four finals) they only had 2 changes. TWO changes! Can you believe that!? That would do wonders for team cohesion and confidence. On the other had the Saints couldn't get their best on the ground when it mattered, and we all know what happened.

Complacency is a killer. Compare the feeling before Geelong played Hawthorn that that now. That was a game they should have won. Then they have a one point loss to the Dogs, a game that they could have won. And then last night. Now the team stands at 2-3, with a few players out of form. The confidence the team had has now been lost, and they have to work hard to regain it. Talent doesn't disappear overnight,
does it? Surely not. The explanation (apart from the injuries) has to be that a few of the senior players are out of form and low on confidence. The team will have to tough this out.

 

[nananana catman]

Complacency can be a hard thing to fix. Because if you lose, it can lead to a drop in confidence and in humans that can be a hard thing to fix.

Against Hawthron we were complacent, then we got the dogs who were red hot and lost, now our intersate hoodoo has risen again and we have lost to the Swans, our confidence must be in serious decline.

 

[GeeCat]

Our chances, and pre-season predictions are all based on our best 22. It isn't an excuse for not hitting targets and lazy football, but the current team we have isn't a team that can win a grand final.

We despertaely need a stronger more committed, more skilled team on the park. Then we can talk Turkey.

That might be true, but what does that say about our depth (which many of us talk up to be amongst the better rotations, if not the best, in the league)?

 

[nananana catman]

That might be true, but what does that say about our depth (which many of us talk up to be amongst the better rotations, if not the best, in the league)?

Depth is an asset, but it is your best players that win you Grand Finals. Not your 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th etc best players.

They may well be better than other guys in says Carltons 22. But that doesnt say a lot for our final aspirations if we have to keep relying on them, because Calrton are down the bottom for a reason They have to play those kind of players.

 

[GeeCat]

Depth is an asset, but it is your best players that win you Grand Finals. Not your 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th etc best players.

They may well be better than other guys in says Carltons 22. But that doesnt say a lot for our final aspirations if we have to keep relying on them, because Calrton are down the bottom for a reason They have to play those kind of players.

Wasn't alluding to anything else, simply pointing things out.

That being said, what happened to all the gusto after Round 2, when, if I remember correctly, we were counting down the days till that last week of September and lauding the fact that we had a plethora of senior players to return. That suggests to me that the idea of depth was alive and well in many a thought regarding our own aspirations.

This isn't aimed at you nana, moreso in the spirit of this thread. I do wonder though, what the logic behind this all is. I mean, surely if our depth is as great as most have made it out to be, then the quality of our current 22 isn't an overly great concern as far reasons for our losses go (and furthermore, though not nearly as relevant as far as this thread goes, a reason why the club feels the need/justification in playing half-fit/underdone/out-of-form players in the side each week).

 

[nananana catman]

Wasn't alluding to anything else, simply pointing things out.

That being said, what happened to all the gusto after Round 2, when, if I remember correctly, we were counting down the days till that last week of September and lauding the fact that we had a plethora of senior players to return. That suggests to me that the idea of depth was alive and well in many a thought regarding our own aspirations.

Complacency... which lead to a loss in confidence... the mind is a fickle organ, footy is even fickler.

 

[jess_555]

Interesting to read everyones point of view. Turbocat, you have made me think REALLY hard! My brain hurts.

This is so tough but I think that I think (LMAO) that the team we have at the moment is the one that will win the premiership. Well actually at the end of last year I thought the Geelong team (at that time) will win the premiership in 2006 or come pretty close!
BUT at the moment I am starting to doubt our forwards, middles and backs! This isn't good at all... I'm freaking out a bit. They are pretty much the same players from last year and like someone else said talent doesn't disappear overnight. Soooooo I supose I still think the team we have now will win the premiership. We have seen how good they can be and it seems the boys are in a painful and frustrating form slump. They need to dig themselves out ASAP and get a move on!

So are they good enough?
YES- if they can consistantly play like the awesome glimpses we saw last year of thier best footy. This team can win the premeirship, but injuries could shoot us down again.

GO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ME0W!!!

 

[RoosterLad]

jess you think Geelong will definately win the 2006 Premiership?
you are getting a bit ahead of yourself there little one

 

[Gogeelong]

We are to brittle and do not have the depth. This is a fact.

We also do not have enough players capable of turning a game )Gary A, excluded)

Our onfield leadership is house

The players do not play direct as told to by the coach (preasure)..

Also why did the club play King and Playfair when advised not to by our departed fitnedd instructor?

My friends there are some concerns

 

[Lindenow Cat]

I don't think it's any secret that after Brisbane belted us phsyically and on the scoreboard a few years ago that Thompson based our game on their style. That was fine 3 years ago, but unfortunately the game has changed. We played Brisbane this year and pumped them, because we have mimicked and surpassed them at their own style. I hate the way it's played now, it bores the hell out of me, but it seems you have to play the poxy backwards sideways chipping game. I don't think this is the instinctive style our boys have been taught, and as a consequence we just can't do it as well as others. The Freo game last year was the perfect example.
What the answer is I don't know, but whenever a team bottles the game up and plays the 'pox' they beat us. I reckon we should just go with OUR game and live or die by it. What good it would do for the game as a whole if any team that played 'proper' football could win the competition. As is I can barely stand to watch AFL, it's more of a chore than entertainment.

 

[thehoff]

I don't think it's any secret that after Brisbane belted us phsyically and on the scoreboard a few years ago that Thompson based our game on their style. That was fine 3 years ago, but unfortunately the game has changed. We played Brisbane this year and pumped them, because we have mimicked and surpassed them at their own style. I hate the way it's played now, it bores the hell out of me, but it seems you have to play the poxy backwards sideways chipping game. I don't think this is the instinctive style our boys have been taught, and as a consequence we just can't do it as well as others. The Freo game last year was the perfect example.
What the answer is I don't know, but whenever a team bottles the game up and plays the 'pox' they beat us. I reckon we should just go with OUR game and live or die by it. What good it would do for the game as a whole if any team that played 'proper' football could win the competition. As is I can barely stand to watch AFL, it's more of a chore than entertainment.

Very good post.

I totally agree with you. We have copied the Birsbane Lions and unfortunatly, the game has changed. Hopefully, not enough for us to have missed our window of oppurtunity.

We are a good side but we are very lazy and rely on 'others' to do the job. If only the whole side had the desire of GAJ and they 'never give up' attitude.

Come on boys. LIFT! If we lose the next two, we can kiss the top 4 away, maybe even the Top 8. There is not much point of finishing 5-8 these days.

 

[Jack-Packenham]

I don't think we are as good as most judges on this board say we are. We have finished 4th and 5th in the last 2 years and everybody just thinks we will make the natural progression to the top 2. It won't happen that easily. I think the last 2 years we have got the absolute most out of our abilities and we have been well managed and well coached. The only improvement to our list in the past couple of years has been the inclusion of Ottens who has been unlucky with injuries time and time again. We are close but there is a massive step still to be taken.

I think we will finish 4-6 again this year and probably win a couple of finals before going out in similar fashion to the last couple of years. We should move heaven and earth to get either of the 2 disgruntled GUN midfielders something that we have none, zero, nought 0 of. They are Ackermanis and Cousins. If it costs us Corey or Kelly or Bartel, so be it. They are not going to win us anything. As a bright spark once said, You owe nothing to nobody that has won you nothing.

With the recruiting of Hawkins, I would stick with Ottens, Kingsley and Mooney and hopefully the improvement of Nathan Ablett and as all these great judges have told me Henry Playfair. Mooney has turned the corner and is now a star of the competition and if King, Ottens and Egan can stand up, he could become the GUN forward that we have been dreaming of since the great man left the club.

We are 1 player short.

Go and get Cousins or Ackermanis regardless of the cost.

 

[year of the cat]

I don't think we are as good as most judges on this board say we are. We have finished 4th and 5th in the last 2 years and everybody just thinks we will make the natural progression to the top 2. It won't happen that easily. I think the last 2 years we have got the absolute most out of our abilities and we have been well managed and well coached. The only improvement to our list in the past couple of years has been the inclusion of Ottens who has been unlucky with injuries time and time again. We are close but there is a massive step still to be taken.

I think we will finish 4-6 again this year and probably win a couple of finals before going out in similar fashion to the last couple of years. We should move heaven and earth to get either of the 2 disgruntled GUN midfielders something that we have none, zero, nought 0 of. They are Ackermanis and Cousins. If it costs us Corey or Kelly or Bartel, so be it. They are not going to win us anything. As a bright spark once said, You owe nothing to nobody that has won you nothing.

With the recruiting of Hawkins, I would stick with Ottens, Kingsley and Mooney and hopefully the improvement of Nathan Ablett and as all these great judges have told me Henry Playfair. Mooney has turned the corner and is now a star of the competition and if King, Ottens and Egan can stand up, he could become the GUN forward that we have been dreaming of since the great man left the club.

We are 1 player short.

Go and get Cousins or Ackermanis regardless of the cost.

Cousins would be great if he was interested (which I doubt) - Acker is now too old. I agree we need a top level midfielder with pace. Our midfielders (i.e. Corey, Ling, Bartel, Kelly, Enright) are all one-paced. Don't get me wrong I admire all of them but we could probably off-load one of them in order to get someone with more pace. If we belt the demons I reserve the right to change my mind though!!

 

[geelong_boy]

Define the Brisbane gameplan for me.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

the most dangerous (key and imposing) player fer the cats was mooney on saturday.

i'll still give it till at least half way thru - its obvious losing does nuthin fer a team in terms of confidence, it all depends on turnin it around. look at us, we're doubtin 'em, naturally the team would do similar. just cause yer 'window is open' dont mean .

 

[jess_555]

jess you think Geelong will definately win the 2006 Premiership?
you are getting a bit ahead of yourself there little one

Nah RoosterLad I'm not certain that Geelong will win the premiership in 2006, no one can be! hehehe I just meant that the playing group that we have at the moment should win a premiership within the next few years. I HOPE! lol

 

[ezbian]

After the Sydney game, I can see the site has several posts that vent the type of frustration I’m very familiar with

- Milburn on forward line
-Almost no clearances from the centre
-Gardiner falling down when under pressure
-always having someone not fit, coming back from a lay off , not in form...

can I add my own. Are we good enough?

I ask a question , not to vent which I have done on occasion and which I don’t blame anyone for, but because for some time I’ve have wondered if we really had the “Full Monty” when under quality pressure in big games under all conditions.

I picked the Cats to finish on the top this ladder of our in our pre-season guess. Why ,one might ask? I think and still think if we had a season like the Swans last year with no injuries we could finish 1 or 2. Of course now, looking at my precognitive effort , I feel I copped out by putting the codicil of injuries in my guess. It was almost out there with the Brother Grim and their many assorted fairytales to believe that we would run through the year without having some players go down. So with that in mind are we good enough? Good enough to get the job done, no matter what?

Good enough to win inspite of injuries, inspite of form, inspite of the best opposition. Now one might say this question is reactionary, I suppose it is to a point but really haven’t we all had concerns over our structure, over our makeup , over our true depth?

Everyone’s favourite bugbear , Jack from P has been screaming about our lack of a key forward for ages, usually his particular point of anguish is H. Correct me if I’m wrong here Jack but basically you Jack do not think H is good enough. I have never disputed that H was a gun forward only that he was our best option available. Jack and I and infact several others have many enjoyable disagreements over H. I’m sure all of us would prefer to have a forward of the quality of Jonathon Brown or a Tredrae but as we don’t have an obvious choice we tend to debate over our best preferred choice from our list. Our forwardline deviancies have been apparent to most but conversely probably least responsible for most of our losses of recent times. To me the finger of guilt needs to be pointed towards the whole side. Just how good are we? Not just our forwards but Backs and in the middle, in fact are they good enough?

Our backs , long scene as our strength is far from the strength some seem to think. Yes Scarlett is Scarlett but even he has poor nights. Egan has be resolute in his effort although he has been shown up as a player that still is far from perfect. Our smaller backs seem to be pushed to provide to much rebound which then weakens our defence.

Ours mids are a concern. Why do we lose so many centre bounce take aways. I’ve been previously happy to attribute some blame to our rucks but last night Ottens and Blake won more than our fair share of taps. So why? Do really have enough quality in and around our ball ups.Ling, Corey, Bartel and Kelly all have ability but do they as a core group match the type of groups that we have to beat to win.For some reason we just don’t get the ball away and this is one area that has not improved with our gain in games played.

I have wondered for sometime if our list which gained so much inertia from 99 and 2001 , needed another year like that to top of our side. We have structured our makeup on Brisbane but had one really poor year with Voss and the rest of them in 98(?) before their final upward surge. Do we still need one more quality draft to invigorate our list and if we do, is that this year probably the best draft since 01. I’m not sure and Id be interested to see what all you other fine judges thought. Yes we were flogged against Hawthorn and beaten by the Swans but looking past that are we good enough?

It's funny how times of despair make us think. I was thinking along those lines on Saturday mid way through the last. I was pondering just how well we were travelling, and thought it would be a good result for us to be 4 & 4 after 8 with the run we have coming up.

After some more deliberation, I thought hang on a minute we are ok, just decimated by injuries to too many key players. Yes I was annoyed on Saturday and yes I was p%^&ed off with the Hawks game, but I am a realist and these are the guys we have had out of our side in the last 3 weeks.

FB: Scarlett
CHB: Harley
CHF: Playfair
FF: Kingsley
R: King

Then I thought how would other clubs go with all their KPP's out.

Saints

FB: Hudghton
CHB: McGuire
CHF: Riewoldt
FF: Gehrig
R: Blake or Kosi

Now the Saints have had injuries to these key big blokes but all at once? No not really. How have they gone when more than 2 of these guys have been out? They lose.

It takes luck to go all the way. You need to get very few injuries, and only those truly great sides can get away with injuries to great players Brisbane 03. But it caught up with them in 04!

Our game plan is built very similar to Brisbane of 01,02,03, and is alot like many of the other great sides of the past decade North & Essendon. Win more contested footy, get it in quick to one on ones in the forward line, be resolute but attacking in defence. The plan is built around the foundation of KPP's. Without them this plan ultimately fails.

This game plan has proven successful. But requires your key personnel being out there.

Are we stupid designing a game plan that is so dependant on KPP's? I don't know the answer. But I do know that Bomber has built a side on successful formulas of the last decade. He could have adopted a strategy similar to Adelaide or the Bulldogs or the Eagles, but he chose to sculpt his list (through recruiting or becuase he was forced) into a hard working, powerful side that when they are up and running win more contested footy, are resolute in defence, and have multiple options up forward.

Ok it's not working at the moment, and the confidence is low. But the game plan is simply not being executed because the key cattle isn't on the park.

Get King in the ruck and free up Ottens
Free Up Ottens & get Harley back, you free up Mooney to play wherever.
Let Hank continue to develop at CHF and take the best defender
Let KK kick 3 -4 at FF.

It has taken me a while but we are good enough. Just have faith and hope like hell we can get the cattle on the park. 04 and 05 weren't flukes for this team. They made it that far becuase they were playing the right kind of uncomprising football. No there not doing it at the moment, but get some key blokes back this week and next and see what a difference it makes.

With no injuries we can go on a big winning streak and resurrect our season.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Lack of confidence is what is causing us to play the chip around, hold the ball style footy. Every time we had the pill on the back flank/wing, you could see there were no targets, no one demanding the ball, no one wanted to take it on (flame me but Charlie Gardiner was the only leading target in this area, the linking man). Everyone is hoping someone else will do it.

A lot o fpeople thought we were hot stuff a few weeks ago, we won the NAB cup with half of our best out, we were saying we had great depth. that hasn't disappeared, we haven't lost because of injuries. No confidence can make really good teams into really bad teams, and they are starting to acknowledge that.

 

[GeeCat]

Complacency... which lead to a loss in confidence... the mind is a fickle organ, footy is even fickler.

Complacency is, at least in my opinion, a very simplistic answer.

2 weeks ago, our mood was typified by many lavishing praise upon our team, which had just gone through a pre-season and 2 games with a good portion of irregular senior players amongst the midst. Apparently the sky was the limit for our team once we had further regained the services of the King's, the Harley's, the Dog's, the Riccardi's, and the Kelly's of the team. As Turbocat pointed out, a ridiculously healthy run of injuries was a pipedream, but one which needn't be of too much concern. We had learned how to survive, such was our 'depth'.

Come now, and in the spirit of this thread, we're questioning whether our group is legitimately good enough. All of a sudden we 'need' our first choice team out on the field to even compete. Our supposed 'depth' isn't cutting it, so much so that we feel the need to rush players back into the side. Our current team may not be anywhere near GF-winning material, but now not good enough to even win regular season games?

Perhaps what I'm most interested in is the sudden change in view on the team. Quality doesn't change, but opinions on it do. Complacency, effort and the like is one reason why we are where we are, but what of our 'depth'? What I don't understand, and perhaps question, is the jump to a 'need' to get our paper 22 out on the ground. It really does beg the question, at least for me, was our depth as good as many had made it out to be? If so, why the sudden need to rush back players to win games? I mean, surely if our depth is half as great as many had built it up to be and had taken for granted, then the issue over the quality of our list is the least of our problems.

 

[GeeCat]

A lot o fpeople thought we were hot stuff a few weeks ago, we won the NAB cup with half of our best out, we were saying we had great depth. that hasn't disappeared, we haven't lost because of injuries.

Bingo.

Whilst the injury situation would certainly have helped, I refuse to subscribe to the belief that our losses had as much to do with our list as it did with the way that list played football.

Perhaps our talent and depth isn't near the falsely created semblance by the boards, but the real question isn't "are we good enough" or that of our depth, it's "are we smart enough, are we tough enough, are we committed enough" etc..

 

[Turbocat]

Bingo.

Whilst the injury situation would certainly have helped, I refuse to subscribe to the belief that our losses had as much to do with our list as it did with the way that list played football.

Perhaps our talent and depth isn't near the falsely created semblance by the boards, but the real question isn't "are we good enough" or that of our depth, it's "are we smart enough, are we tough enough, are we committed enough" etc..

Gee's Gee and I thought I could get wordy ,top effort.

I agree "Good enough" is not specific but in the end your arte either good enough or not, for what ever reason. People love this depth thing , I thinks its little bit of a misnomer.If depth equals talent , then I see our pool of talent as being as big or bigger than most clubs but the depth of our pool is very even, we lack a deep end in the pool. We lack a Judd and a Hodge or whoever that could be defined as our standout top 2 or 3. When we are all on , this has its advantages but when we are down, like this week when I thought we looked drained after last weeks effort, we lack that super player to lift us over the line.
For Thompson to say ``People talk about our list, but we still know we're very, very fragile if we haven't got a lot of our senior players playing,'' , he knows our list is never far away from being of the pace.

 

[cats2rise]

Cousins would be great if he was interested (which I doubt) - Acker is now too old. I agree we need a top level midfielder with pace. Our midfielders (i.e. Corey, Ling, Bartel, Kelly, Enright) are all one-paced. Don't get me wrong I admire all of them but we could probably off-load one of them in order to get someone with more pace. If we belt the demons I reserve the right to change my mind though!!

haha

Umm dont we have a certain new number 5 that is lightning quick, with silky skills?