Opinion Are we on the verge of another period of dominance from teams not based in Melbourne?

[Carringbush2010]

Why is so much money needed to run a not for profit organisation?

Good question, but it is about the money regardless, market dictates.

How much are the top employee's being paid?

Not sure how this will lead to any league equity

Why keep propping up a team that cannot feed itself?

Name any pro league in the world that doesn't have its strugglers? The answer is the combined fan base loss if we didn't have them. I've mentioned this already.

Sink some of its millions into establishing a truly national comp with all teams travelling equally.

Geography gets in the way of that.

 

[VicBased]

Good question, but it is about the money regardless, market dictates.

Not sure how this will lead to any league equity

Way to many highly paid execs which could help fund another team.

Name any pro league in the world that doesn't have its strugglers? The answer is the combined fan base loss if we didn't have them. I've mentioned this already.

Merge 4 into 2 and make them successful. Then another 2 interstate teams can join the comp making it an equal comp.

Geography gets in the way of that.

See above . There is an easy way to equalise travel.

 

[AstonSouffle]

Probably coz those two teams collect eye balls, regardless of form, traditional rivals yada yada. WA and SA teams get their home game FTA every week, not always prime time but everyone in SA and WA are still watching. So the league gets the best of all markets instead making prime slots in the name of fairness while less pies / blose fans are watching.

No doubt, but at the end of the day the vic market outnumber all other footy markets combined, so the league will keep them happy 1st.

This really is the underlying condition of the landscape, it's all about business.

Now you're getting it.

Thought the why/s would be evident, market dictates.

IDK

Prelim venues are now decided by the higher finisher, it used to be as you say. What would you like to do about it now?

IDK

IDK

Thought the why/s would be evident, market dictates.

IDK, good question - more than certain, Tas b4 gc and gws would've been a raging success story, not a drain like gc and gws.

Yes the AFL should do better, and no one is arguing the league is / was perfect.

It's not an equitable league, no pro league that I can think of is anywhere in the world.

Geography and a smaller market are the bane of where we live (Perth), smaller markets are the bane of everywhere else.

'Now you're getting it' - Don't be condescending lol, I earnestly am trying to have a discussion here rather than cry about it unlike many do.

As for market dictates, if the AFL doesn't sustain poor teams and there was no salary cap it would just be West Coast crushing everyone into oblivion so while I appreciate what you're saying - clearly certain Vic teams are sustained artificially in spite of what the market clearly dictates.

 

[Square Peg]

I seriously doubt the VFL / AFL whatever you wanna call it are gonna go this route.

So do I, I thought I had already made it clear I don't expect the AFL to voluntarily do this, if it ever were to happen it will take an external disrupter. You like to talk about market forces, the market would be upturned by a well financed hostile takeover. It's how it happens, all over the world. Will it happen here? Who knows. I hope so.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Way to many highly paid execs which could help fund another team.

Merge 4 into 2 and make them successful. Then another 2 interstate teams can join the comp making it an equal comp.

See above . There is an easy way to equalise travel.

I agree about execs, merging teams doesn’t work. Fans don't go for it, and if it's just to appease non vic, they definitely won't go for it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

So do I, I thought I had already made it clear I don't expect the AFL to voluntarily do this, if it ever were to happen it will take an external disrupter. You like to talk about market forces, the market would be upturned by a well financed hostile takeover. It's how it happens, all over the world. Will it happen here? Who knows. I hope so.

So we're back to Gina and twiggy again. They could force a break away league but fans want to follow their club.

If said league forces tradition vic clubs less time in vic. Then those fans will be lost.

 

[Carringbush2010]

'Now you're getting it' - Don't be condescending lol, I earnestly am trying to have a discussion here rather than cry about it unlike many do.

As for market dictates, if the AFL doesn't sustain poor teams and there was no salary cap it would just be West Coast crushing everyone into oblivion so while I appreciate what you're saying - clearly certain Vic teams are sustained artificially in spite of what the market clearly dictates.

Wasn't meant to be condescending, blunt reality.

If the league didn't sustain those clubs then those fans would be lost. The fans make the league money.

If the league thought the money coming in wasnt worth the propping up. Then those clubs wouldn't be propped up.

To be fair any pro league worldwide has its stragglers. I've mentioned this before.

 

[VicBased]

So we're back to Gina and twiggy again. They could force a break away league but fans want to follow their club.

If said league forces tradition vic clubs less time in vic. Then those fans will be lost.

I have been questioning this for a while and I reckon if the interstate teams formed their own league the majority of AFL'ers, Vic and West Aussies etc would miss the comp.
For all our banter and disagreement if it all went to s**t we would be quite sad.

 

[Rockford]

Bye, I would rather talk to adults.

Well, that scuttles the theory that you’re Joffa. You can talk to me.

I think most reasonable supporters can see that there is further equalisation that could occur across the competition.

Historical reasons for not looking to equalise the competition (bUT yOu JOiNeD oUR lEaGUe) are just entitled supporters hoping to hang on to their club’s advantages.

 

[King Huskii]

Well, that scuttles the theory that you’re Joffa. You can talk to me.

I think most reasonable supporters can see that there is further equalisation that could occur across the competition.

Historical reasons for not looking to equalise the competition (bUT yOu JOiNeD oUR lEaGUe) are just entitled supporters hoping to hang on to their club’s advantages.

Thanks for posting a reasonable response to such a childish post

 

[doppleganger]

This is where your theory comes unstuck though because you claimed both Essendon and Carlton are on level pegging with Collingwood in terms of home ground advantage at the MCG... but you're also claiming Essendon and Carlton are on level pegging with North in terms of home ground advantage at Marvel!
You can't have it both ways, mate. If anything Carlton and Essendon are actually disadvantaged at both grounds because they have a near even split between the 2 venues which means they are constantly switching conditions throughout the season and never really benefit from playing most of their games at the 1 venue.

That is what I said....I dont think it is a coincidence that Carlton and Essendon have been s**t for 20+ years, when both decided to go the co-tenant approach??

Home advantage is real, they dont have a home anywhere anymore. They just play a glut of neutral games.

So there was really only 2 genuine neutral Marvel games for North last year and they were against St Kilda and the Bulldogs.

You cant have it both ways mate.

According to you.

North 10 games v StK 12 is neutral
North 10 games v Ess 9 is not neutral

Good logic.

Once you are playing 8-9 games at a ground, ground familiarity difference between you and a team who plays 10+ is bloody insignificant.

Both teams have normal routine
Both teams sleep at home
Both teams familiar with the ground
Both teams fans have easy access

They are neutral games.

Keeping in mind North have chosen to sell 4 home games to Hobart and all 4 of those games were against teams that don't experience home ground advantage at Marvel so this is absolutely a case where North have CHOSEN to lose their home ground advantage on 4 occasions. Once Tasmania enters the AFL in a few years from now, North will regain most or all of those home ground advantage games and your argument will look even worse.

You're not taking into account the fact that Hawthorn have CHOSEN to sell 4 of their home games against teams that don't play at the MCG on a regular basis.

That is the POINT.

Yes the Melbourne based club opted for $$ over equity.

The Melbourne club sells home advantage for $$, their opponent (non-Melbourne clubs) benefits from a reduced away ground disadvantage.

H&A fixture now favours non Melbourne clubs.

If Melbourne clubs stop selling home games, actually play them at their home then non-Melbourne teams wont be advantaged anymore.

That means the amount of MCG games they would play if they had chosen to not sell those games would be up around the 13 mark, significantly higher than Carlton and Essendon and in line with Collingwood's 14. Again, when Tasmania enters the league in a few years from now we won't see Hawthorn playing "home" games in Launceston anymore and your flimsy theory is dead at that point.

Nope, Hawthorn are still fixtured home games at Marvel.

Once AFL forced them out of Waverley, were never given all games at the G.

Same with Melbourne, Collingwood, and Richmond. The AFL forces these clubs to play home games away from the G.

Richmond, Melbourne and Hawthorn decided to sell home games from Marvel to at least make some $$. As fans dont identify with it as a home ground.

I agree that Essendon and Carlton actually suffer to some degree as a result of regularly switching between the 2 Melbourne grounds, which is why I would probably argue Essendon and Carlton experience the least home ground advantage of all the Vic teams. Having said that, it's not even close to the ridiculous situation a team like GWS find themselves in where they literally get just 5 home ground advantage games for the whole season.

But your inane argument is GWS choose to sell games to Canberra, your Suns choose to sell games to China so it is their fault.

Facepalm.

I was talking about home games. The actual home game numbers last year were:

Carlton 6 Marvel 5 MCG
Essendon 7 Marvel 4 MCG
Hawthorn 7 MCG 4 Launceston

As you can see, Hawthorn plays more actual home games at the MCG than both Carlton as Essendon and that's after CHOOSING to sell 4 home games to Launceston.

Wrong again.

Hawthorn are fixtured 1 home game at Etihad, they only get 6 MCG home games.

Been that way since at least 2015.

But because Hawthorn split of 9 MCG games in 6 home and 3 away, compared to Carlton which is 5 home and 4 away it somehow gives them an advantage??

Facepalm.

How much of a "home" advantage does a team like Essendon really experience when they play Richmond or Collingwood at the MCG? I know you seem to think it's a neutral game (very convenient view to take for your argument as a Collingwood supporter) but I disagree and would say there's at least a slight advantage for Collingwood and Richmond in those circumstances. If number of games played at the one venue is truly an indication of familiarity and/or home ground advantage then you have to acknowledge that Collingwood and Richmond (14 MCG games each) experience the most home ground advantage of all teams in the AFL.

ANZAC day...it is a neutral game, teams alternate who is nominal home and away teams.

Dreamtime at G, it is a neutral game, teams alternate who is nominal home and away.

When you are playing 8-9 games at a venue, claim it as a home ground you are familiar.

It is diminishing returns stuff, ground familiarity diff when go from 9 to 10+ games is insignificant.

Geelong and Suns dont have an inferior home advantage to WC because they only play 8/9 games at GMHBA / Metricon compared to the Eagles 12 at Optus.

Big games at the G - if both competing teams call the G home and play have played more than a third of their games at a venue, it is a neutral game. The teams often even do a gate share agreement.

The reduced advantage is when a team plays a "home" game at a ground they barely play at (<5) games.

Essendon play more games at the G than GWS do at the Showgrounds. So if they come up against another team who calls the G home it is a neutral game.

However, I would argue the Bulldogs do receive a reduced home ground advantage in Ballarat when they play a team like Gold Coast because of the travel differences.

You are agreeing with me!

They aren't real home advantage, they are reduced. And if home advantage is reduced, so is the equivalent away disadvantage.

Bit like Tigers playing Dockers at Marvel too

See the trend, Melbourne clubs reducing their home advantage to nonMelbourne opponents.

You can say what you want about teams based in WA/SA complaining about travel but the simple fact is they are getting on planes far more often than a team like Collingwood and that's definitely a disadvantage for them.

H&A results show that travel is more than offset by the ground advantage they retained and how they enjoy reduced away disadvantage as a result of teams selling games.

But yeah, the tinfoil SA/WA fans position is that the evil Melbourne powerbrokers are stopping non Melbourne (SA and WA all they care about) teams from being successful.

The reality is the Melbourne powerbrokers fix the Fixture to minimise travel for WA teams as much as they can.

I would love for a random H&A fixture where starting point is all teams play ALL their home games at one venue (like SA and WA teams do).

 

[Carringbush2010]

I have been questioning this for a while and I reckon if the interstate teams formed their own league the majority of AFL'ers, Vic and West Aussies etc would miss the comp.
For all our banter and disagreement if it all went to s**t we would be quite sad.

Maybe,

It wouldn't worry me too much coz I know it'd pretty much be like it was before expansion. Just more modern, maybe even get Fitzroy and Sth Melb back, and would probably be the main focus in the country, just like it was before expansion.

For non vic fans I don't know, I reckon and hope the state leagues would flourish. Those leagues have their own deep history and reverence.

 

[JackOutback]

Maybe,

It wouldn't worry me too much coz I know it'd pretty much be like it was before expansion.

Struggling financially?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Struggling financially?

Are you trying to be a smart arse?
You do know the WAFL was also struggling as well, the VFL by expanding also bailed them out?

So yes we all know that The VFL was on it's knees, but with the salary cap and tv rights, I doubt that would happen again.


But hey, get your state to get off it's backside and lead the way and let's see what will happen, I bet they won't, they never have and never will.

 

[King Huskii]

Are you trying to be a smart arse?
You do know the WAFL was also struggling as well, the VFL by expanding also bailed them out?

So yes we all know that The VFL was on it's knees, but with the salary cap and tv rights, I doubt that would happen again.


But hey, get your state to get off it's backside and lead the way and let's see what will happen, I bet they won't, they never have and never will.

Maybe because it's already happened

You carry on a bit

 

[LoungeLizard]

Maybe because it's already happened

You carry on a bit

It's already happened?
Everything you have ever done is follow what other states have done, how about you form this big break away a few of you like t talk about?

I bet it's all talk and it never happens.
Or how about just tell the AFL to GAGF and return to the WAFL.

I might carry on a bit, but you just talk crap.

 

[King Huskii]

It's already happened?
Everything you have ever done is follow what other states have done, how about you form this big break away a few of you like t talk about?

I bet it's all talk and it never happens.
Or how about just tell the AFL to GAGF and return to the WAFL.

I might carry on a bit, but you just talk crap.

Yeah ok mate

 

[Carringbush2010]

Struggling financially?

Either either, if those clubs coll, rich etc. became bankrupt they'd always come back because there was always a market for them, the whole could've collapsed and it'd come back in some way shape or form.

There's no known universe where the footy public would just go 'oh well it's over now' there always was and always will be demand.

In any case the 'financial struggle' was only a short period in the history.

 

[Carringbush2010]

So again, like in every similar thread, I keep asking the questions, and no one can answer it with any conviction.

Why do non vic supporters follow? Why not just snub the AFL and follow your state leagues?

Imagine if the public of WA and SA followed the state leagues, just imagine how big those leagues would be.

To all the pissed off, I say, vote with your feet and your remotes and restore the glory of the state leagues!

 

[King Huskii]

So again, like in every similar thread, I keep asking the questions, and no one can answer it with any conviction.

Why do non vic supporters follow? Why not just snub the AFL and follow your state leagues?

Imagine if the public of WA and SA followed the state leagues, just imagine how big those leagues would be.

To all the pissed off, I say, vote with your feet and your remotes and restore the glory of the state leagues!

You do realise that a few generations of football fans from South Australia and West Australia have been born into supporting an AFL team be it from their state of another state. You are kidding yourself if they are going to not watch the afl because of its Vic bias.

It's in the AFL to clean itself up and make it as close to neutrality as possible considering it's a national comp.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You do realise that a few generations of football fans from South Australia and West Australia have been born into supporting an AFL team

What 30 something years, that's a generation, not a few, the WAFL and SANFL are much much older than that

You are kidding yourself if they are going to not watch the afl because of its Vic bias.

Yet the crying and toy throwing continues

It's in the AFL to clean itself up and make it as close to neutrality as possible considering it's a national comp.

It's not a national comp, it's an expanded VFL, it caters as best as possible to all markets. Reckon they've got it pretty close to as equitable as possible

In saying that, it's not about fairness and equity, it's a business, and the biggest market is vic.

So why do you continue to follow if you dislike it so much?

 

[VicBased]

What 30 something years, that's a generation, not a few, the WAFL and SANFL are much much older than that

Yet the crying and toy throwing continues

It's not a national comp, it's an expanded VFL, it caters as best as possible to all markets. Reckon they've got it pretty close to as equitable as possible

In saying that, it's not about fairness and equity, it's a business, and the biggest market is vic.

So why do you continue to follow if you dislike it so much?

The Collwobbles supporter from Perth is on fire .
First, and foremost, it is the AFL not the VFL and that brand was chosen by the powers that be.
They reside in Victoria and they come up with that agenda, unfortunately they are not faithful to it.
Secondly, people do support the WAFL same as people support the VFL, probably with the same amount of enthusiasm. The fact is though that it is more exciting watching the AFL, same as the Vic's watch AFL instead of VFL.
Where the problems are is the powerbrokers that be, who live in Victoria, don't like it when non Vic's take the cup away ,hence the inquiry into why Vic teams could not keep up.
It is not the Interstaters that need to change, they kept their part of the bargain.
I am sure you will add and counter but it is an old argument
One nobody will win until there are more non vic teams and the weight of money will turn the tide.
And it will happen.

 

[PAFC_FOREVER]

This is our league you're just playing in it.

Never forget that.

You are only in the league to make up numbers for TV.

Never forget that.

 

[King Huskii]

What 30 something years, that's a generation, not a few, the WAFL and SANFL are much much older than that

Yet the crying and toy throwing continues

It's not a national comp, it's an expanded VFL, it caters as best as possible to all markets. Reckon they've got it pretty close to as equitable as possible

In saying that, it's not about fairness and equity, it's a business, and the biggest market is vic.

So why do you continue to follow if you dislike it so much?

All you care for is Victorian clubs being looked after. Particularly yours

 

[Carringbush2010]

All you care for is Victorian clubs being looked after. Particularly yours

Of course I care about my club.

If you put the shoe on the other foot what if it was the wafl that expanded? And all non wa fans were wishing mergers or culling of your team/s in the wafl?