Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Evolved1]

I'll be offended if fundies mock my disbelief in sky pixies. It's a sensitive subject for me.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

There are 2.3 billion Christians world-wide.
You should show some respect for their beliefs. We don't come here to mock your disbelief.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

There are 2.3 billion Christians world-wide.
You should show some respect for their beliefs. We don't come here to mock your disbelief.

 

[Roylion]

Do you agree that there is evidence Jesus Christ existed? If not, why not.? It's out there.

Jesus "Christ"? No. There may have been an itinerant preacher in the first century AD named Yeshua who claimed to be the "messiah" but there were a few of those. For example:

Simon bar-Giora - a messianic pretender. The forces of John of Giscala had occupied the temple (which became a "den of thieves"). They were implacable enemies of the priests, who were seen as lapdogs of the hated Romans. So the priests struck a bargain with Simon bar-Giora to enter the temple to expel their rival revolutionaries. Simon and his troops make a triumphal entry into the city, were hailed as deliverers, and proceeded to "cleanse the temple" of the robbers who infest it. Sound familar? But the Roman siege eventually forced Simon to try and tunnel out to safety. Giving up on the plan, he tunneled up, bursting out of the earth in full regalia of a Judean king before stunned Romans, who then take him to Rome and execute him as King of the Jews.

Jesus Ben Stada. He was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century AD. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew, in fact he is descrbed as being 'hung on a tree', on the eve of a Passover. The rabbis who constructed the Babylonian Talmud believed that it was ben Stada who was elevated by the Christians to that of a godhead, but still confuse him with another Jesus ben Pandira.

Athronges (about 4-2 BC). A shepherd. After proclaiming himself a messiah, Athronges led the rebellion against Archelaus and the Romans. After a protracted struggle Athronges and his brothers were defeated.

And on top of all these then there was also other messianic pretenders / self styled prophets / Kings of the Jews in the first century AD including:
- Carabbas
- Theudas the Galilean
- Judas the Galilean
- Jesus bar-Abbas (possibly the Barabbas of the Gospels)
- Elymas bar-Jesus
- Jesus Justus (claimed by one scholar to be the son of Jesus Christ)
- the martyred Samaritan Messiah.

He said He was the son Of God.

It was claimed by his followers that he said he was the son of God. Many figures have claimed divinity or divine ancestry. Egyptian pharoahs, Roman, Japanese Chinese and Incan emperors and so on and other individuals such as Simon Magus, Apollo Quiboloy, Hong Xuiquan and so on. I reject their claims as I reject the claims that "Jesus" was the "Son of God".

He was the human God sent here for our benefit.

That is your belief. One held by faith alone.

You may not accept He is God. But you would be foolish to deny his existence.

Even if he existed, I see no reason to accept he was the Son of God and certainly not on the basis of some-one else's say so.

...man-made mumbo-jumbo.

Some might argue the Gospels and indeed the wider Bible and Qur'an are exactly that.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Simon bar-Giora - a messianic pretender. The forces of John of Giscala had occupied the temple (which became a "den of thieves"). They were implacable enemies of the priests, who were seen as lapdogs of the hated Romans. So the priests struck a bargain with Simon bar-Giora to enter the temple to expel their rival revolutionaries. Simon and his troops make a triumphal entry into the city, were hailed as deliverers, and proceeded to "cleanse the temple" of the robbers who infest it. Sound familar? But the Roman siege eventually forced Simon to try and tunnel out to safety. Giving up on the plan, he tunneled up, bursting out of the earth in full regalia of a Judean king before stunned Romans, who then take him to Rome and execute him as King of the Jews.

Jesus Ben Stada. He was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century AD. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew, in fact he is descrbed as being 'hung on a tree', on the eve of a Passover. The rabbis who constructed the Babylonian Talmud believed that it was ben Stada who was elevated by the Christians to that of a godhead, but still confuse him with another Jesus ben Pandira.

Athronges (about 4-2 BC). A shepherd. After proclaiming himself a messiah, Athronges led the rebellion against Archelaus and the Romans. After a protracted struggle Athronges and his brothers were defeated.

Bloody hell, the Judean Peoples' Front was extremely busy wasn't it? Or was it the Peoples' Front of Judea?

 

[Vdubs]

Jesus "Christ"? No. There may have been an itinerant preacher in the first century AD named Yeshua who claimed to be the "messiah" but there were a few of those. For example:

Simon bar-Giora - a messianic pretender. The forces of John of Giscala had occupied the temple (which became a "den of thieves"). They were implacable enemies of the priests, who were seen as lapdogs of the hated Romans. So the priests struck a bargain with Simon bar-Giora to enter the temple to expel their rival revolutionaries. Simon and his troops make a triumphal entry into the city, were hailed as deliverers, and proceeded to "cleanse the temple" of the robbers who infest it. Sound familar? But the Roman siege eventually forced Simon to try and tunnel out to safety. Giving up on the plan, he tunneled up, bursting out of the earth in full regalia of a Judean king before stunned Romans, who then take him to Rome and execute him as King of the Jews.

Jesus Ben Stada. He was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century AD. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew, in fact he is descrbed as being 'hung on a tree', on the eve of a Passover. The rabbis who constructed the Babylonian Talmud believed that it was ben Stada who was elevated by the Christians to that of a godhead, but still confuse him with another Jesus ben Pandira.

Athronges (about 4-2 BC). A shepherd. After proclaiming himself a messiah, Athronges led the rebellion against Archelaus and the Romans. After a protracted struggle Athronges and his brothers were defeated.

And on top of all these then there was also other messianic pretenders / self styled prophets / Kings of the Jews in the first century AD including:
- Carabbas
- Theudas the Galilean
- Judas the Galilean
- Jesus bar-Abbas (possibly the Barabbas of the Gospels)
- Elymas bar-Jesus
- Jesus Justus (claimed by one scholar to be the son of Jesus Christ)
- the martyred Samaritan Messiah.



It was claimed by his followers that he said he was the son of God. Many figures have claimed divinity or divine ancestry. Egyptian pharoahs, Roman, Japanese Chinese and Incan emperors and so on and other individuals such as Simon Magus, Apollo Quiboloy, Hong Xuiquan and so on. I reject their claims as I reject the claims that "Jesus" was the "Son of God".



That is your belief. One held by faith alone.



Even if he existed, I see no reason to accept he was the Son of God and certainly not on the basis of some-one else's say so.



Some might argue the Gospels and indeed the wider Bible and Qur'an are exactly that.

The billions of people worldwide who believe Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God don't need your haughty approval. If we are correct in our faith, it will be sad for people like you. If we are deluded or incorrect, it should not affect you at all, as in the very least, Christians are attempting to make this world a better place for those in need, like Jesus did, and are not a threat to people like you. We do not deserve hostility, (not necessarily directed at you) yet we know and have been warned this happens and we expect it. What we believe therefore should not evoke the anger it appears is prevalent on this thread.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

The billions of people worldwide who believe Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God don't need your haughty approval. If we are correct in our faith, it will be sad for people like you. If we are deluded or incorrect, it should not affect you at all, as in the very least, Christians are attempting to make this world a better place for those in need, like Jesus did, and are not a threat to people like you. We do not deserve hostility, (not necessarily directed at you) yet we know and have been warned this happens and we expect it. What we believe therefore should not evoke the anger it appears is prevalent on this thread.

Wars
Raping Children
Fraudulent Fund Raising
Secret Off Shore Bank Accounts
Funding Terrorist Organisations
Murder

Nah, you keep the world you are "making better" and leave us peaceful moral people out of it

 

[Number37]

And that's the point. There is scientific data that suggests that this might be an actual possibility. That doesnt mean it is. As opposed to absolutely no evidence in support of the notion of a "god".

The same problem again...compared to the notion of God...that was never the argument.
What you're really saying is that the theory doesn't stand up unless, or ONLY if, you compare it to something unproven.

In a roundabout way you are agreeing with what I have said, you just can't bring yourself to look at it objectively.
I suspect this is because you are more interested in trying to one up theism.

 

[Roylion]

Bloody hell, the Judean Peoples' Front was extremely busy wasn't it? Or was it the Peoples' Front of Judea?

The Popular Front...

 

[Roylion]

The billions of people worldwide who believe Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God don't need your haughty approval.

Did I say they did? You are free to believe what you like. However if you proselytize your beliefs as being the one, true correct belief without supporting evidence then yes, those beliefs will be questioned. This is a public discussion forum not a proselytizing forum for Christianity.

If we are correct in our faith, it will be sad for people like you.

If....

I see no reason to suggest you are correct. You believe what you do purely on faith, with little or no evidence to support your belief.

If we are deluded or incorrect, it should not affect you at all, as in the very least, Christians are attempting to make this world a better place for those in need, like Jesus did, and are not a threat to people like you.

That is your claim. However there are many non-Christians also seeking to make this world a better place.

We do not deserve hostility, (not necessarily directed at you) yet we know and have been warned this happens and we expect it. What we believe therefore should not evoke the anger it appears is prevalent on this thread.

I have no anger. At times incredulity, but not anger.

 

[Gethelred]

There is no science and Y does not explain X just because Y follows X.
You're essentially arguing that no science, no logic trumps no science, no logic and I don't see how that argument can be sustained.

IMO , your argument isn't objective, it is wholly subjective which makes it a mirror image of an argument that is made by theists.
Which has me wondering why you , & others, are so strident in your anti-theism.

There, the logical position becomes...?

 

[Marcel Proust]

You mean God is a socialist

Jesus was

 

[Marcel Proust]

Did I say they did? You are free to believe what you like. However if you proselytize your beliefs as being the one, true correct belief without supporting evidence then yes, those beliefs will be questioned. This is a public discussion forum not a proselytizing forum for Christianity.



If....

I see no reason to suggest you are correct. You believe what you do purely on faith, with little or no evidence to support your belief.



That is your claim. However there are many non-Christians also seeking to make this world a better place.



I have no anger. At times incredulity, but not anger.

Let's be honest but the correlation between atheist and flog is very strong. And grows the more extremist the person is

 

[Cooldude]

If we are correct in our faith, it will be sad for people like you.

So arrogant, angry and vindictive

We do not deserve hostility,

I mean, just look at you people's track record, you kinda do

I guess you're trying to gain power and pity by playing the victim but we kinda see through the act, Christianity ain't the victim, they make victims

 

[Roylion]

Let's be honest but the correlation between atheist and flog is very strong. And grows the more extremist the person is

Lucky I'm not an atheist.

 

[Roylion]

The same problem again...compared to the notion of God...that was never the argument.
What you're really saying is that the theory doesn't stand up unless, or ONLY if, you compare it to something unproven.

There a great deal left to be discovered before we can say whether this particular theory is possibly correct. However researchers are working on it.

I suspect this is because you are more interested in trying to one up theism.

I have no interest in trying to "one-up" theism. However, given the thread topic, I am yet to see any evidence whatsoever in support of the notion that theism might be a possible explanation of the creation of the universe. Until any evidence presents itself, then I shall continue to consider it as less of a possibility than what physicists and cosmologists are postulating, based on the observable evidence they have collected up to this point.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Christians are attempting to make this world a better place for those in need, like Jesus did, and are not a threat to people like you. We do not deserve hostility,

That’s what many said to Christians during the crusades and inquisitions over many many centuries with of course far greater consequences than some ribbing on a public forum.

You’re comfortable that your religion was founded on so much blood, misery, ignorance and fear?

And some have the temerity to abuse non believers on here....what a flog indeed.

Let's be honest but the correlation between atheist and flog is very strong. And grows the more extremist the person is

 

[Vdubs]

So arrogant, angry and vindictive



I mean, just look at you people's track record, you kinda do

I guess you're trying to gain power and pity by playing the victim but we kinda see through the act, Christianity ain't the victim, they make victims

Nil of that trifecta.
I am not angry, have never been labelled arrogant, and vindictive is the opposite of what we are here for.
Your perception of Christianity is jaundiced by the atrocities and whatever else you see, whilst denying the overall good.
YOU are the angry one.
If it is all not as we Christians believe it to be, I have not lost much at all, as I honestly believe that whatever else is motivating our modus operandi, it is helping people in need (if God does not exist).
But if God is real, don't you think we have a responsibility to illuminate those in the dark? That's why I came to this thread. Clearly not succeeding in your case, we all have free wills, and you have stated your opinion forcefully enough on multiple occasions.
So why keep coming to this thread?

 

[Vdubs]

Wars
Raping Children
Fraudulent Fund Raising
Secret Off Shore Bank Accounts
Funding Terrorist Organisations
Murder

Nah, you keep the world you are "making better" and leave us peaceful moral people out of it

Every one of those SINS you have mentioned have been perpetrated immensely more by non Christians.

 

[Number37]

There, the logical position becomes...?

????

 

[Number37]

I have no interest in trying to "one-up" theism. However, given the thread topic, I am yet to see any evidence whatsoever in support of the notion that theism might be a possible explanation of the creation of the universe. Until any evidence presents itself, then I shall continue to consider it as less of a possibility than what physicists and cosmologists are postulating, based on the observable evidence they have collected up to this point.

That wasn't the discussion, at least not as far as I was concerned.
You dragged it down that rabbit hole for reasons only you can explain.

There a great deal left to be discovered before we can say whether this particular theory is possibly correct. However researchers are working on it.

The only point that I have made is that there is a pretty large hole in the non-theist arguments.
AND that large hole coincides exactly with the same hole in the theist arguments.

Atheists, in particular, have made a religion out of plugging that large hole by substituting a leap of faith in God to a leap of faith in science.
IMO, a leap of faith is a leap of faith.

 

[Gethelred]

????

****ing autocorrect.

Then, the logical thing becomes what? If atheism is equally illogical as religion - this is not me conceding the point, necessarily - what is logical?

 

[Roylion]

But if God is real, don't you think we have a responsibility to illuminate those in the dark?

Why don't you leave it to God? If he exists as you say he exist.

That's why I came to this thread.

The title "Ask a Christian" doesn't mean you are entitled to proselytize.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Every one of those SINS you have mentioned have been perpetrated immensely more by non Christians.

Bullshit, christians were the inventors of most

 

[Roylion]

The only point that I have made is that there is a pretty large hole in the non-theist arguments.
AND that large hole coincides exactly with the same hole in the theist arguments.

I diasgree it "co-incides exactly". Any explanation for the origins of the universe and what might have been responsible for that is currently under research by cosmologists and physicists and current theories are postulated on at least a modicum of empirical evidence.

Atheists, in particular, have made a religion out of plugging that large hole by substituting a leap of faith in God to a leap of faith in science.

In science, nothing is seen as the truth, until it is supported by hard irrefutable and falsifiable evidence. For example - evolution. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a Supreme Being or deities. Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of a Supreme Being or deities.

IMO, a leap of faith is a leap of faith.

Except when a theory or hypothesis supported by at least some scientific evidence.