Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Evolved1]

You've not answered my question. Sacrifice is defined as:

... in the Cambridge dictionary. If Jesus didn't die, how is there any sacrifice at all as he has not surrendered anything, let alone something of value? If Jesus did die but was raised from the dead, are you saying that the entire burden of human sin going backwards and forwards through time is worth 72 hours?

How does Jesus' resurrection not undermine the notion of sacrifice is the question I'm asking. How does Jesus being confiscated for misbehaving with our savior for three days amount to him sacrificing anything at all?

Or - for the purposes of this argument - was God dead for those three days? Because that would be an awesome theological argument to make, and would actually provide weight to the sacrifice made.

Jesus' sacrifice is the equivalent of the SA lockdown. Weak as piss.

 

[Vdubs]

You've not answered my question. Sacrifice is defined as:

... in the Cambridge dictionary. If Jesus didn't die, how is there any sacrifice at all as he has not surrendered anything, let alone something of value? If Jesus did die but was raised from the dead, are you saying that the entire burden of human sin going backwards and forwards through time is worth 72 hours?

How does Jesus' resurrection not undermine the notion of sacrifice is the question I'm asking. How does Jesus being confiscated for misbehaving with our savior for three days amount to him sacrificing anything at all?

Or - for the purposes of this argument - was God dead for those three days? Because that would be an awesome theological argument to make, and would actually provide weight to the sacrifice made.

The death of the human form of God was horrific for an innocent man.
He would have truly suffered.
The fact that He came back from that is remarkable and indicative of why people are followers and disciples.
If for a moment you could consider that there is the possibility it is true, that God sent a human version of Himself to live this perfect life, to teach the Word of God, to live it, to agree to losing his life for the sake of mankind as it had been foretold in scripture, to come back to show us with Him, human death is not the end, why would you not follow it?

 

[Roylion]

The death of the human form of God was horrific for an innocent man.

He wasn't innocent. He was a criminal.

Violating the Sabbath law (by healing on the Sabbath), threatening to destroy the Jewish Temple, blasphemy, sorcery as well as sedition.

If for a moment you could consider that there is the possibility it is true, that God sent a human version of Himself to live this perfect life, to teach the Word of God, to live it, to agree to losing his life for the sake of mankind as it had been foretold in scripture, to come back to show us with Him, human death is not the end, why would you not follow it?

On what basis would you consder such a claim to be true? There's no evidence that it is.

 

[Vdubs]

Your 'intellect' somehow allows you to choose a belief for which there is no evidence at all, while at the same time rejecting scientific fact for which there is a mountain of robust supporting evidence cross a vast array of scientific fields.

My existence and that of others tells me that we have a yearning for a relationship with our Creator, a spiritual side that science and research fails to address.
I have studied the science and the "facts" do not adequately tell me where it all started from. I believe God is the creator of it all. It makes sense. To suggest big bang or whatever explains how we get to where we are today is implausible to me.
We are made in God's likeness.
We are humans with a conscience, a yearning to do the right thing, to love and to be loved, to care and to not want to hurt people.
We desire to be altruistic at times. That is not science.
Why do we care when loved ones die?
Why do we care about inequity, pain, hardship, misery ?
Why do people care about God before they die? It's easy to be self-sufficient when all is ho-hum.
Why are some of the most successful and wealthiest individuals void of happiness, and find meaning and purpose in a relationship with God?
No matter what hardships we endure, and there are plenty, I feel God's presence, and that is reality for plenty of us.

 

[Evolved1]

The death of the human form of God was horrific for an innocent man.
He would have truly suffered.
The fact that He came back from that is remarkable and indicative of why people are followers and disciples.
If for a moment you could consider that there is the possibility it is true, that God sent a human version of Himself to live this perfect life, to teach the Word of God, to live it, to agree to losing his life for the sake of mankind as it had been foretold in scripture, to come back to show us with Him, human death is not the end, why would you not follow it?

Why would you not consider the possibility that:

1. The theory of evolution is based on indisputable facts.
2. The new testament is a retro-fit to create a new religion based on an older one.
3. Other people who have different religious beliefs also have the same subjective experiences as you.
4. Subjective experiences aren't indicative of objective truth.
5. Other religious figures and even real life heros have sacrificed far more than Jesus did. He knew he was going to come back in three days.
6. Faith is delusion and requires wilful denial of facts.
7. You don't want to know the truth.
8. Miracles don't happen in front of a camera or in a science lab.
9. You would be spruiking the virtues of Islam if you were born in Pakistan.

 

[sdfc]

Why would you not consider the possibility that:

1. The theory of evolution is based on indisputable facts.
2. The new testament is a retro-fit to create a new religion based on an older one.
3. Other people who have different religious beliefs also have the same subjective experiences as you.
4. Subjective experiences aren't indicative of objective truth.
5. Other religious figures and even real life heros have sacrificed far more than Jesus did. He knew he was going to come back in three days.
6. Faith is delusion and requires wilful denial of facts.
7. You don't want to know the truth.
8. Miracles don't happen in front of a camera or in a science lab.
9. You would be spruiking the virtues of Islam if you were born in Pakistan.

Who gives a crap about what you don't believe in?

 

[Evolved1]

My existence and that of others tells me that we have a yearning for a relationship with our Creator, a spiritual side that science and research fails to address.
I have studied the science and the "facts" do not adequately tell me where it all started from. I believe God is the creator of it all. It makes sense. To suggest big bang or whatever explains how we get to where we are today is implausible to me.
We are made in God's likeness.
We are humans with a conscience, a yearning to do the right thing, to love and to be loved, to care and to not want to hurt people.
We desire to be altruistic at times. That is not science.
Why do we care when loved ones die?
Why do we care about inequity, pain, hardship, misery ?
Why do people care about God before they die? It's easy to be self-sufficient when all is ho-hum.
Why are some of the most successful and wealthiest individuals void of happiness, and find meaning and purpose in a relationship with God?
No matter what hardships we endure, and there are plenty, I feel God's presence, and that is reality for plenty of us.

I can honestly tell you that:
1. I have no desire to have a relationship with any supernatural beings.
2. I often desire to do the wrong thing even when I know it's wrong.
3. We care when loved ones die because humans are social animals. It's a function of our evolutionary history.
4. We care about inequality to a certain extent, but we are also selfish beings who are primarily concerned with ourselves and those close to us (both socially and genetically). Again, it's a function of evolution.
5. I don't care about god. He isn't real.
6. Happiness isn't correlated with wealth when people have our basic needs covered. It has nothing to do with god.
7. Many believers don't feel god even though they want to. Feelings aren't truth.

 

[Evolved1]

Who gives a crap about what you don't believe in?

You cared enough to respond. Why?

 

[Roylion]

My existence and that of others tells me that we have a yearning for a relationship with our Creator, a spiritual side that science and research fails to address.

I have no such yearning for a relationship with a "creator" that I have no evidence even exists.

I have studied the science and the "facts" do not adequately tell me where it all started from.

But an ancient literary work written between the 8th and 5th centuries BC supposedly does? Why is this work to be believed in rather than current scientific facts and scientific theories supported by robust empirical evindece

I believe God is the creator of it all. It makes sense.

It's an easy and convenient explanation for something that it not easily explained. Goddidit. But it is not supported by any evidence.

To suggest big bang or whatever explains how we get to where we are today is implausible to me.

But supported by far more scientific evidence than "God" is.

We are made in God's likeness.

God is made in our likeness. God is a man-made invention.

We are humans with a conscience, a yearning to do the right thing, to love and to be loved, to care and to not want to hurt people.
We desire to be altruistic at times. That is not science.

It is science.

Many animals are altruistic.The basic reason that social animals live in groups in the first place is that opportunities for survival and reproduction are much better in groups than living alone. So social animals have had to modify or restrain their behaviors for group living to be worthwhile. Other species of animals display empathy and altruism as well as have had social rules that restrain individual selfishness and build more cooperative groups. A lack of group cohesion could make individuals more vulnerable to attack from outsiders or make it harder in finding sufficient food for survival.

Why do we care when loved ones die?
Why do we care about inequity, pain, hardship, misery ?

Same as many animals do. Some examples

• Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.
• Mongooses support elderly, sick, or injured animals.
• Meerkats often have one standing guard to warn while the rest feed in case of predator attack.
• Raccoons inform conspecifics about feeding grounds by droppings left on commonly shared latrines. A similar information system has been observed to be used by common ravens.
• Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats.
• Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group.
• Chimpanzees will help humans and conspecifics without any reward in return.
• Bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.
• Vampire bats commonly regurgitate blood to share with unlucky or sick roost mates that have been unable to find a meal, often forming a buddy system.
• Vervet monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.
• Lemurs of all ages and of both sexes will take care of infants unrelated to them.
• Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.
• Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.
• African buffalo will rescue a member of the herd captured by predators.
• Humpback whales have been observed protecting other species from killer whales.

Why do people care about God before they die? It's easy to be self-sufficient when all is ho-hum.

Pascal's Wager

 

[sdfc]

You cared enough to respond. Why?

Because I find it odd to make so much effort telling others what you don't believe in.

 

[Evolved1]

Because I find it odd to make so much effort telling others what you don't believe in.

It doesn't take much time or effort on my part, and I find this enjoyable.

Antitheism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gethelred]

The death of the human form of God was horrific for an innocent man.
He would have truly suffered.
The fact that He came back from that is remarkable and indicative of why people are followers and disciples.
If for a moment you could consider that there is the possibility it is true, that God sent a human version of Himself to live this perfect life, to teach the Word of God, to live it, to agree to losing his life for the sake of mankind as it had been foretold in scripture, to come back to show us with Him, human death is not the end, why would you not follow it?

Any time you're interested in answering the question I asked, I'll be interested to hear what you have to say.

My question was: how is the sacrifice of Jesus not cheapened by his resurrection, if not by the fact that he never truly died?

 

[Vdubs]

Why would you not consider the possibility that:

1. The theory of evolution is based on indisputable facts.

2. The new testament is a retro-fit to create a new religion based on an older one.

3. Other people who have different religious beliefs also have the same subjective experiences as you.

4. Subjective experiences aren't indicative of objective truth.

5. Other religious figures and even real life heros have sacrificed far more than Jesus did. He knew he was going to come back in three days.

6. Faith is delusion and requires wilful denial of facts.

7. You don't want to know the truth.

8. Miracles don't happen in front of a camera or in a science lab.

9. You would be spruiking the virtues of Islam if you were born in Pakistan.

9 is my favourite number.
1. Theory- facts?. It does not address the very beginning, the origin of everything. Only an omnipresent God does that.

2. Luke 4:16-22. Well worth a read.
16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[a]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

3. Jesus is the only way to God. How God deals with these other believers is His call.

4. Subjective is only part of the situation. There is objective evidence with dramatic change in peoples' lives and attitudes after they have had a personal conversion. This is truth, indisputable.

5. There is nothing more sacrificial than death itself. Everybody only gets one go at it. No need to elaborate.

6. Nobody is denying there is a theory of evolution, but those who deny that there could be God do so at their own peril.

7. I am very comfortable with the truth I know, despite the difficulty of it, despite the ridicule, despite the theories against it.

8. And if they did, you would have an alternative explanation- magician, sorcerer...the miracles we experience as Christians include dramatic changed lives, healing of addictions and other issues. They are not explained by a change of mind or willpower- they occur after receiving Jesus into their lives. The world is full of these miracles on a daily basis.

9.There are missionaries in Pakistan, India etc so that The Word can spread to all nations. Christianity is the third largest religion in Pakistan, about 1.6% of the population. There is still time.

 

[Total Power]

3. Jesus is the only way to God. How God deals with these other believers is His call.

Despite not being an atheist i stay far away from fundies for this very reason! my religion is the right religion and my god is the real god.

Of course, we all knew that, you wouldn't need to type that.

 

[Vdubs]

Any time you're interested in answering the question I asked, I'll be interested to hear what you have to say.

My question was: how is the sacrifice of Jesus not cheapened by his resurrection, if not by the fact that he never truly died?

ANY person who has died as a sacrifice has made the ultimate sacrifice. It has never been done before that a man has come back from death. Crucifixion would be a horrendous death. The IMPORTANCE of his resurrection is the reason the whole following of Christianity exists. That separates Him from any other spiritual leader, difficult as it may be to believe. There is nothing more ultimate than death itself. Why you try and dilute that by suggesting his resurrection cheapens it is not accepting the magnificence of what this resurrection means.

 

[Gethelred]

ANY person who has died as a sacrifice has made the ultimate sacrifice. It has never been done before that a man has come back from death. Crucifixion would be a horrendous death. The IMPORTANCE of his resurrection is the reason the whole following of Christianity exists. That separates Him from any other spiritual leader, difficult as it may be to believe. There is nothing more ultimate than death itself. Why you try and dilute that by suggesting his resurrection cheapens it is not accepting the magnificence of what this resurrection means.

I'm not diluting anything. The nature of the resurrection itself undermines the sacrifice of Christ's death in the first place, because there is no sacrifice if he is not dead.

 

[Total Power]

That separates Him from any other spiritual leader, difficult as it may be to believe.

Read some history, the story of resurrection is not unique to christianity only and existed before Christianity too. India, Egypt to name a couple. There are more.

 

[Roylion]

1. Theory- facts?. It does not address the very beginning, the origin of everything. Only an omnipresent God does that.

It's a completely made up notion that an omnipresent "God" created everything. Abiogenesis of course is the scientific investigation of the natural process by which life has arisen from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds.

6. Nobody is denying there is a theory of evolution, but those who deny that there could be God do so at their own peril.

What 'peril' would that be?

In fact evolution is regarded as scientific fact, given that the evidence in support is so overwhelming. There has not been a single piece of evidence that has falsified evolution.

8. And if they did, you would have an alternative explanation- magician, sorcerer...the miracles we experience as Christians include dramatic changed lives, healing of addictions and other issues. They are not explained by a change of mind or willpower- they occur after receiving Jesus into their lives. The world is full of these miracles on a daily basis.

That is disputable.

 

[Furn2]

Was Andrea Yates a hero for drowning her 5 children before the age of reason to ensure they didn't turn out athiests, gay or in the wrong denomination and therefore burn in hell for all eternity ?

 

[Roylion]

ANY person who has died as a sacrifice has made the ultimate sacrifice. It has never been done before that a man has come back from death.

It's never been done. No living person has ever risen from the dead.

'Dead' being someone who has obviously completed the process of 'death'.

'Death' being the state of the body after the heart has stopped beating for a period of time and the brain has starved from lack of oxygen. The whole network of neurons has largely disintegrated, dissolved from massive cell death and the pooling of blood acids. Gases and fluids have pooled in the extremities and body cavities. Rigor mortis has set in and the body has begun to decompose.

 

[Vdubs]

It's never been done. No living person has ever risen from the dead.

'Dead' being someone who has obviously completed the process of 'death'.

'Death' being the state of the body after the heart has stopped beating for a period of time and the brain has starved from lack of oxygen. The whole network of neurons has largely disintegrated, dissolved from massive cell death and the pooling of blood acids. Gases and fluids have pooled in the extremities and body cavities. Rigor mortis has set in and the body has begun to decompose.

Exactly.
THAT is why Jesus has so many Billions of followers today. Jesus did. There were convincing reports of this fact. But of course, you know he didn't because you have no proof.

 

[Vdubs]

Read some history, the story of resurrection is not unique to christianity only and existed before Christianity too. India, Egypt to name a couple. There are more.

These stories do not deliver us a means to have a relationship with God.

 

[Roylion]

THAT is why Jesus has so many Billions of followers today. Jesus did. There were convincing reports of this fact.

They are not convincing reports. Who are these reports from? Let's go through their credentials and agenda.

 

[Roylion]

These stories do not deliver us a means to have a relationship with God.

Having a "relationship wth God" is the narrative you attach to this particular story. The story itself is fundamentally the same as many other man-made stories attached to mythical, legendary and semi-historical personages found throughout history across a range of cultures.

 

[Colonial]

Exactly.
THAT is why Jesus has so many Billions of followers today. Jesus did. There were convincing reports of this fact. But of course, you know he didn't because you have no proof.

There’s nothing other than a fictional book of stories, that changes every generation or so, to prove he did rise from death.