Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Vdubs]

But not the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, which of course didn't happen. Paul makes it clear that he regards it as a spiritual reusrrection. As Ive already explained.

No he doesn't.He talks about spiritual resurrection for believers later on in 1 Cor 15.
In the first 20 or so verses, he says Jesus appeared.
He appeared.

Paul uses self-deprecation in v8, labelling himself almost as the abortion in a group of established and deserving apostles and disciples.
Just because you say it didn't happen, it doesn't make it so. We say it did, you say it didn't.

 

[Roylion]

No he doesn't.He talks about spiritual resurrection for believers later on in 1 Cor 15.

At no point does Paul believe in a physical resurrection of the body.

In the first 20 or so verses, he says Jesus appeared.
He appeared.

I've explained this already. Go back and read it.

 

[Leeda]

This does not confirm the Gospels.

it never does..

 

[Vdubs]

At no point does Paul believe in a physical resurrection of the body.



I've explained this already. Go back and read it.

Your explanation is as biased as those who believe it happened.
And Paul is referring to us, when we die. Not Jesus when he actually appeared in human form to all those people. You just can't accept it, and will cling to any scant possible explanation that suits your argument.

 

[Roylion]

Your explanation is as biased as those who believe it happened.

As I've said a bodily resurrection from the physical dead is the least likely explanation of the natural circumstances decribed in the Gospels, even if those facts such as an empty tomb for example, were correct. Paul did not refer to a bodily resurrection of the physically dead.

 

[Vdubs]

As I've said a bodily resurrection from the physical dead is the least likely explanation of the natural circumstances decribed in the Gospels, even if those facts such as an empty tomb for example, were correct. Paul did not refer to a bodily resurrection of the physically dead.

Paul DID refer to the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Roylion]

Paul DID refer to the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

He didn't. For reasons I have already explained and which you haven't refuted.

 

[Total Power]

The message is not ambiguous, unless you are looking for ambiguity. I have never had an issue with it. He describes early on the post resurrection appearance of Jesus to several disciples, and reluctantly includes himself in that group, because he had previously been a persecutor of Christians. This confirms the Gospels.
Then he describes how critical the resurrection concept is to Christianity, giving us hope of life beyond the fleeting existence we have here.
You are seriously trying to make it look grey, and thereby making it tenuous. Because you raise doubts, it must be that way?? Paul is clear saying Jesus APPEARED to those hundreds of witnesses.

Are you deliberately being daft? he never said this, please refer to the post where i explained how the legend developed over time. Please dont make up shit. I have explained it to you how Paul and Mark never mentioned physical reassertion, how can he anyway, it was a vision/dream/hallucination, are you suggesting he hallucinated the witness' too? do you realise how absurd this sound? there is ZERO evidence behind this, NONE! you are inventing history as it goes, Mark the oldest gospel also contradicted, refer to my longer post about this. As i said, please don't make up shit.

 

[Total Power]

Paul DID refer to the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

No he DID NOT. I have explained this a 100 times already, celestial body doesn't mean flesh and blood. You are making up the intepretation as it suitts you. Can you quote a scholar who isn't a christian apoologist to support your view?

 

[Total Power]

Your explanation is as biased as those who believe it happened.
And Paul is referring to us, when we die. Not Jesus when he actually appeared in human form to all those people. You just can't accept it, and will cling to any scant possible explanation that suits your argument.

LOL..coming from you! the ironing is delicious.

 

[Total Power]

Paul DID refer to the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

Lets say you are right, you still be wrong about the myth though.

First, it differs from all 4 gospels accounts, please refer to my longer post before. In fact, there are 5 different versions of who saw what and in which order on resurrection morning. You cannot harmonize the accounts.

Also, Corinth is far from Jerusalem (800 miles). They spoke a different language. Different culture. Although Christianity used the monotheism of the Jewish religion, the followers who were mostly pagan didn't hold Jews in any special regard. In fact Christianity became quite antisemitic by the second century.

And Paul, if you read into galations 1&2, didn't really have a good relationship with the Jerusalem church anyway. So there's no reason to believe that anyone was fact checking this religion that Paul was preaching. It was just one of many newish religions spreading amongst spiritual pagans in the first century CE. I'm mean, how easy is it to check snopes yet tons of idiots spread false rumors on Facebook every day. Ancient people were much worse than us today.

Please try to offer evidence to refute someone, 'it happened because i and other christian apologists said so' is not an argument.

 

[Vdubs]

LOL..coming from you! the ironing is delicious.

The ironing? second time. Irony I presume.
The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

 

[Vdubs]

Are you deliberately being daft? he never said this, please refer to the post where i explained how the legend developed over time. Please dont make up sh*t. I have explained it to you how Paul and Mark never mentioned physical reassertion, how can he anyway, it was a vision/dream/hallucination, are you suggesting he hallucinated the witness' too? do you realise how absurd this sound? there is ZERO evidence behind this, NONE! you are inventing history as it goes, Mark the oldest gospel also contradicted, refer to my longer post about this. As i said, please don't make up sh*t.

What credentials do you have to tell others how to read their Bible, and make claims that 2000 years of interpretations of Biblical scholars are incorrect?

 

[Total Power]

The ironing? second time. Irony I presume.
The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

LOL you have disproved your own argument. Thanks for coming.

40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[Vdubs]

Lets say you are right, you still be wrong about the myth though.

First, it differs from all 4 gospels accounts, please refer to my longer post before. In fact, there are 5 different versions of who saw what and in which order on resurrection morning. You cannot harmonize the accounts.

Also, Corinth is far from Jerusalem (800 miles). They spoke a different language. Different culture. Although Christianity used the monotheism of the Jewish religion, the followers who were mostly pagan didn't hold Jews in any special regard. In fact Christianity became quite antisemitic by the second century.

And Paul, if you read into galations 1&2, didn't really have a good relationship with the Jerusalem church anyway. So there's no reason to believe that anyone was fact checking this religion that Paul was preaching. It was just one of many newish religions spreading amongst spiritual pagans in the first century CE. I'm mean, how easy is it to check snopes yet tons of idiots spread false rumors on Facebook every day. Ancient people were much worse than us today.

Please try to offer evidence to refute someone, 'it happened because i and other christian apologists said so' is not an argument.

The fact that there are 4 different gospels with minor variations, and not an ad verbatim replica of each other, highly adds to the veracity of the resurrection

 

[Total Power]

What credentials do you have to tell others how to read their Bible, and make claims that 2000 years of interpretations of Biblical scholars are incorrect?

I am not telling you how to read the Bible, why would i? No one outside of 'Chrisian apologists' believe in your interprtation. NO ONE. I have challeged you to name one and you couldnt come up with one.

 

[Vdubs]

LOL you have disproved your own argument. Thanks for coming.

40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Exactly- that is our resurrection, Christians at the end of our time here.
That is not the same as what he said about Jesus ' resurrection. Get it right.

 

[Total Power]

The fact that there are 4 different gospels with minor variations, and not an ad verbatim replica of each other, highly adds to the veracity of the resurrection

Minor? LOL....do you even read my posts? from town, to people, to Jesus' actions , to what to ate, what we wore, what actions he did, he number of witness' everything is different.

 

[Total Power]

Exactly- that is our resurrection, Christians at the end of our time here.
That is not the same as what he said about Jesus ' resurrection. Get it right.

Your verse proves i am right, clear distinction between spiritual body and early body, consistent with the Jewish view of ressuerction back then. As i said you have disproved your own argument.

 

[Cooldude]

Erm, of course the gospels are similar, they were cherrypicked and constructed in a round table by the same religious bureaucrats aiming to write a semi-coherent propaganda

The funny thing is, the gospel of John was made after the first 3 because the tone of the first 3 were ****ing bleak so they needed a happier tone gospel to sell the religion. They are no different to marketers

 

[Vdubs]

Minor? LOL....do you even read my posts? from town, to people, to Jesus' actions , to what to ate, what we wore, what actions he did, he number of witness' everything is different.

Given how long after the events these were written, again it adds to the veracity. I would be worried if there were 4 gospels with identical descriptions. That would suggest a collusion. No, not here. All clear. Absolutely credible. I don't need any posts from your "research" when the verses are clear to read.

 

[Total Power]

Given how long after the events these were written, again it adds to the veracity. I would be worried if there were 4 gospels with identical descriptions. That would suggest a collusion. No, not here. All clear. Absolutely credible. I don't need any posts from your research when the verses are clear to read.

You don't read my posts i am sure, i stated clearly how the legend evolved from Mark all the way to John, its clearly made up to promote the 'saviour idea.

 

[Vdubs]

You don't read my posts i am sure, i stated clearly how the legend evolved from Mark all the way to John, its clearly made up!

You state what you like. You have absolutely zero authority or credibility as a Bible scholar or historian, unless you state your credentials..The gospels reflect the Good News, and the resurrection is why we celebrate Easter Sunday.

 

[Total Power]

You state what you like. You have absolutely zero authority or credibility as a Bible scholar or historian. It is Gospel.The gospels reflect the Good News, and the resurrection is why we celebrate Easter Sunday.

I claim no authority, i quote the biblical scholars and historians who arent christian apologists! you got no one outside of christian apologists on your side. Your own verse disproves your argument, clear distinction between 'earthly body with flesh and blood' and spiritual body which in greek translates to 'celestial body'. You sir, have clearly lost this argument.

 

[Vdubs]

I claim no authority, i quote the biblical scholars and historians who arent christian apologists! you got no one outside of christian apologists on your side. Your own verse disproves your argument, clear distinction between 'earthly body with flesh and blood' and spiritual body which in greek translates to 'celestial body'. You sir, have clearly lost this argument.

Incorrect.
Read what Paul said about Jesus appearing to....
What he says later is in reference to what happens to believers.
The only loser here is you; as you said, you have no faith. You are not one who lost it, iirc, but same end result.