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Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
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Vdubs
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Here is a decent summary I found and agree with.
1. Without the physical Resurrection, two thousand years of history are left begging for explanation, like a movie missing a key scene. No other event in all recorded history has reached so far across national, ethnic, religious, linguistic, cultural, political, and geographic borders. The message spread with unreasonable success across the world. During just the first few centuries, it spread without political or military power, prevailing against the ruthless efforts of dedicated, organised and violent opposition. How did a small band of disempowered Jews in an occupied and insignificant territory of ancient Rome accomplish this unequaled act? What happened so many years ago that reframed all human history?
2. With dates established by radiometric analysis, prophecies from centuries before Jesus’ birth predict his life, death, and resurrection.The great scientist Blaise Pascal identifies this as the “tangible proof” for people who want evidence that God exists. These prophecies include specific details that Jesus and His followers could not control. For example, before the Romans invented crucifixion, Psalms 22:16 described the piercing of Jesus’ hands and feet. Isaiah 53 is a particularly important prophecy that lays out the story of Jesus and the meaning of the Resurrection (Isaiah 52:13-53:12). Is this evidence of an Intelligence outside our time confirming Jesus’ authority?
3. Jesus was a real person in history who died. Several manuscripts from multiple sources, including Jewish historians, describe a man named Jesus who lived and was executed.Specific details reported about His execution confirm.“Blood and water” spilled from a spear wound in His side. He really died and was not merely unconscious.
4. The early accounts of the Resurrection and prophecies predicting it were reliably transmitted through history. As of 2014, more than 66,000 early manuscripts are known, orders of magnitude more than other ancient texts. Many are carbon dated to before Jesus’ time on earth and the first few centuries after. We see accounts nearly unaltered in the earliest manuscripts. A pattern of consistency emerges. There are variations in the manuscripts, but nothing invalidates the reliability of the Resurrection accounts.
5. Accounts of the Resurrection include inconvenient and unflattering details, that make most sense as attempts to reliably record what had happened, free from embellishment. They do not fit expectations of a fabricated account. For example, women are the first witnesses of the Resurrection. In a culture that did not admit the testimony of a woman as valid evidence in court, this detail is surprising. Likewise, all the disciples, the leaders of the early Church, flee as cowards when Jesus is taken.
6. After Jesus’ violent death, His followers were frightened and scattered. Then, something happened that grew a strong, bold, and confident belief that resisted sustained, murderous opposition. Unlike other movements with executed leaders, once they came back together they did not replace Jesus with one of his family members. Their resistance was entirely non-violent and devoid of political power. Yet they were all suddenly willing to die for what they saw. What changed them? Why was there not evidence at the time to undermine their belief?What convinced them that Jesus was inconceivably greater than his family?
7. More than just a fact about our past, the Resurrection creates a connection to God that is perceived by people from all times, cultures, socioeconomic statuses, personalities, and metal capacities, across the last 2,000 years of history. Its reach includes some of the most famous scientists: Blaise Pascal, Johann Kepler, Robert Boyle, Gregor Mendel, Asa Gray, Michael Faraday, James Maxwell, Santiago Ramón y Cajal, and Francis Collins. Is this unmatched reach and influence a sign of a living God working His purpose in history?
Some of the evidence here is established by scientific methods. For example, radiocarbon dating demonstrates that Isaiah 53’s prediction that Jesus “see the light of life” after dying was written at least 100 years before His birth. However, the question of Jesus gently beckons us out from science’s limits, into a reality where love, beauty, goodness, and relationships are real. In the question of the empty tomb, science itself reaches its hard limit. It points to something beyond itself.
1. The Resurrection is God’s direct, supernatural action in a specific physical event in history. The obvious finality of physical death (both in modern science and to the ancient world) serves to highlight the role of God in this moment. We never consider God’s action in science, so we cannot even ask the question without opening our minds to things beyond science.
2. The entire Christian faith hinges on the physical Resurrection of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:14,17), but no “Resurrection mechanism” for science to study is proposed. As a mechanism-free singular event that defies all natural laws, we are well outside science’s ability adjudicate facts and understand evidence.
3. The question of the Resurrection is more like an opportunity to fall in love than a scientific inquiry. There is evidence, but the Resurrection cannot be studied dispassionately. If Jesus really rose from the dead, it reorders everything. Just like falling in love, in changes our view of the world.
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Number 5 is my favourite. James Hird, Terry Daniher, and the great man Gazza all wore it.
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I view her actions as heroic if there is an age of reason and the bible is true.
If fetuses gain automatic entry to heaven, Christians should absolutely be pro-abortion to save more souls. Why risk having fetuses grow up to be rebellious teens/adults who fight against god, reject his salvation, and end up in Hell for eternity?
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
I know you're trying to provoke, so no other bites for that post.
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How does one maintain a "personal relationship" with a being that is invisible, silent, and in fact beyond all the human physical senses? How do you know what you doing is real and not just a figment of your own imagination?
I failed at this. I couldn't do it. How do you do this, apart from faith? How do you confirm that what you are doing is real or even works?
I failed at this. I couldn't do it. How do you do this, apart from faith? How do you confirm that what you are doing is real or even works?
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
It is a great question.
By daily prayerful communication with God and with fellow Christians.
Every day, committing your day to God via Jesus; tell him all your issues with the knowledge that He cares and is interested. He will respond in His own time. That has been my experience for over 30 years. It is not easy, but I certainly know when i miss doing this, things are not right. Reading His word and putting Him as the centrality of your life is the aim. Keeping a record of actual prayer requests and replies is beneficial, like a spiritual diary or journal.
What's the first thing you utter when you come crashing off your bike, or when some immediate calamity strikes?
For many people it is God, or Christ. In a way, it is blasphemy, but in another way, it acknowledges the need for Higher help.
I work with a chap who is Jewish, but often utters "Jesus" when things are really high stress. I often say, if you really want His help, i'll pray.
Jesus is an amalgamation of so many mytholigcal and historical characters. For example, Jesus turning water into wine is just a copy paste from Dinosyus. Horus, Osiris story of resurrection (they are were Egyptian gods) are just a copy paste too. And this is not my conlusion, scholar Mark W. G. Stibbe has written extensively about the ways in which the Gospel of John parallels Euripides’s Bacchae. For instance, both the Gospel of John and the Bacchae are about a deity in human form visiting a land where he should be recognized.
You can have your interpretation any way you want to and make your own conclusions, but critical thinking is not your strong point, this is apparent.
Vdubs
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Thanks for your assessment.
Not my assessment at all, this is undeniable that this Jesus character was an amalgation of various characters, do you think Jesus turning water into wine was repeated throughout history by many 'sons of gods' in various cultures over and over again?
Do you think the resurraction of Krishna (god in human form), was any different to that of Jesus? yes yes i know, these are all fake religions to you, but try to be objective in your view. Your point of this being unique to christianity is false, Muslims made the same claim about Christianity being a false religion in this very thread, claims without evidence carry no meaning.
It just doesn't work for me. I tried it, but it is like hugging the wind. I never had a prayer answered, except that which could be adequately explained through ordinary and mundane reasons. I think prayer helps people organise their thoughts on things, but you don't really need a god for that, just imagine trying to explain your problem to someone else and imagine them being there with you and what they might say. I've always felt my prayers were just going out into the void with no receiver to even acknowledge they were listening.
This is why I gave it up. I guess my mind is just not wired up for this. I can't make real what I know to be beyond my discernible grasp of reality through the ordinary human senses. Other senses just don't work in my brain.
Sixandahalf
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Just out of curiosity, what was the basis of your prayers? I'm guessing you were asking for something? If it's not personal, would you mind sharing? I may be able to shed light on why prayer might not be "working" for you. Believe it or not, there's an order to prayer. It's not chaotic. That's not how God works.
Sixandahalf
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Classic case of paltering. When one deducts with reasoning why there are similar "stories" and characters in history, one can clearly see someone has gone through the trouble of creating such stories. One can conclude that you only do that if you want to hide the truth.
You just have to ask the right questions to start finding the answers. Who and why?
In the case of Christianity, it was born out of great opposition. Oppression only strengthened it. So much that the Roman empire "embraced" it and polluted it with their pagan beliefs. You can clearly see paltering within Christianity itself during that period and it only go worse since. It was such a success that it's lasted up until now.
If that still doesn't satisfy you, you're going to have to give the spiritual realm a run and see which name carries authority and weight in the realm. I'll give you a hint, it's not Krishna or Horus.
You are barking up the wrong tree. You didn't read history i assume? let me help tell you how Christianity spread in the Mediterrean for starters.
Robin Lane Fox offers up a lot of the evidence for this in Pagans and Christians (a phenomenally dull book, but good to have read): Christianity expanded rapidly in the Roman empire in two separate waves, both of them (ironically) for tax purposes.
In the first wave, Christian bishops figured out a way to exploit a loophole in Roman inheritance law. Roman women technically inherited their husbands' wealth in their own name, but the law sharply constrained how they could spend it. But there was an exception for donations to temples of any kind, and Christian bishops offered Roman widows this deal: donate all of your late husband's wealth to a Christian church, and we'll make you the finance chair, you can spend it however you want. This lead to the first great wave of anti-Christian persecution, as local business leaders freaked out that productive businesses with a lot of employees were being liquidated so that widows, and their Christian bishop "boyfriends" (common accusation, never proved) could waste the money on handouts to the poor.
Later, when Constantine was looking to re-ignite a Roman civil war against his co-heads-of-state, the other two Triumvirs (mostly because he felt snubbed), he ran into the problem that his army refused to mobilize without the blessing of at least one priest of at least one god, and the only priest he could find willing to gamble on Constantine turned out to be a Christian bishop. When Constantine won that war, he cited this as proof that since the only god that had recognized Constantine's right to rule the world was the Christian god, the Christian god must be the only true god, and he changed Roman law.
Prior to Constantine, you couldn't apply for most high-ranking political jobs without an established record of donating significant wealth to at least one temple. During Constantine's reign, he changed the law so that only donations to Christian churches would be counted. This so starved non-Christian temples of operating cash that, by the time Constantine died, most of them had gone completely out of business and the rest had sharply curtailed operations.
And lastly the reason why Christianity spread worldwide was due to colonialism and imperialism, which many religions (countries), like India didn't. How do you think Islam spread, from having severe oppositions in Christians, Jews, pagans etc to become 2nd largest religion on earth? Islam had bigger and tougher oppositions cause they were born in Jewish/Christian lands. They were attacked, sabotaged and was almost at the verge of extinction at one time. Turn a page or two of history to see how Islam destroyed the Egyptian culture (till date one of the richest on earth) and made it Islamic. Why doesn't Horus popularity exist got nothing to do with the actual mythology due got everything to do with history being written by the winners.
The point of the mythological stories is not about 'paltering', the fact that similar stories existed before Jesus and continued to exist after Jesus shows it was just copying similar stuff. How christianity became so popular is a different story, just like how Islam became so popular despite the strongest opposition of all religions?
Spirituality is not about popularity contest, it never was and never is, yet every single fundamentalist Christian in this thread (or Muslims) think it's about popularity. It was never about numbers and never will be. Spirituality is infinitely complex , yet people like you think, its about reading a book and praying! simple as that. No wonder Christianity been bastardized. I am not against Christianity, i am against fundamentalists like you. No one religion is spirituality, not one! none have a copyright to it, never will be. The very same reason why organised religion (specially christianity) is on a massive slide in Europe/US/Australia is people are recognising the con (organized religion that is) with science and education.
Your arguments are weak and always boils down to Jesus being an American or European idol. Always! not worth replying but thought i would educate you about the history behind the popularity and it's not the 'right reason' to believe Christianity is the only true religion.
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Ben The Donkey
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For me, it's usually "ah... ****."
If you're looking for truth and the meaning of life... there it is.
Sixandahalf
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Don't you hate it when you write an essay to prove someone wrong, only to vindicate their argument?
Go back and read my comment. Did I say Rome did the oppression? No you assumed I said that. And you steered it to me trying to have a popularity contest. Just go back and read my comment again before having tunnel vision and a predisposed view of what my argument may be.
The initial oppression Christianity faced was by the Jewish Temple. Rome had no problem with Chrisitianity, it saw no threat.
Further more, you've done all the leg work to elegantly show how paltering made it's way within Christianity ranks in its early years. Thanks for that, saved me a lot of time.
The point I was trying to make is that even Christianity has been polluted by political and prominent social figures over the centuries. Whether ignorantly or deliberately as you've shown.
I'm telling you to look beyond that historical fact and start asking questions of why? Everything is done for a reason.
I'm laughing at your "spirituality" paragraph. The fact that you've reduced Chrisitianity to just a book and prayer shows your ignorance. Maybe you assume I'm someone that thinks that's just it? Well you couldn't be further from the truth.
My ancestors were highly spiritual. In fact today when the industrial world has fully focused on the natural world and completely ignored and even discredited the spiritual world, where I'm from spirituality is still a big part of the culture. I can tell you that it's nothing like the western world "spirituality". It's on another level. The western world is spiritually deaf to the actual spiritual world. Hence why you see a decline in "organised religion". I hate to break it to you but that's certainly not Chrisitianity. That's dead Christianity, lip service. Most people in the western world will never experience true Christianity as long as they stick to the so called organised religion here. When we first moved to Australia, even at my tender age of 11, I could sense the dead or nonexistent belief of the spiritual world. People who said they were "spiritual" were nothing more than pseudo spiritualists.
I'm not talking about hipster new aged spirituality either. Over the last 6-8 months, people from the island my father's from have travelled great distances attempting to "get to" my parents. When I say travel, I don't mean using a mode of transport you're familiar with. And normally it's a 1 night travel thing, meaning they do it in one night.
Now normally their methods work on their targets if and only if their targets aren't Christians with strong faith (I'll explain). One of the best things to happen to my country of origin was the introduction of Christianity. Before that, it was rife with witchcraft. That being the main method to unfairly settle disputes. It wasn't until the introduction of Christianity that people realised their so called "power" was limited.
That being said, the reason why I'm a "fundamentalist" as you put, is not because I read a book and prayed . I've experienced what that book has stated multiple times in my short life:
- I've seen the power the name of Jesus Christ carries in the spiritual world. I can guarantee you, no other "mythological" name if that's what you want to call it, has the same effect on people who practice witchcraft where I'm from.
- In fact, people who are steeped in witchcraft never come near a believer because they can sense the power that radiates from the believers faith. I remember when I was younger and we were on dad's island for holidays and a well known "magic man" as they called him, would not set foot in the same house as my mum. His exact words were, if I went into the house, I would be struck down dead. All because he was heavily involved in witchcraft. And because the house we stayed in was prayed over.
- the islands where my parents are from only has one dominant religion which has established buildings. Not because there haven't been any other religions. It's the only belief that has proven to have no rival against our cultural spiritual belief and ways. That's a fact you can take to the bank. The country has minority religions, but among the islands where witchcraft is big, only one exists and only one is king. No other religion that I know of has tried their "luck" on those notorious islands.
- the reason why those people have been trying for 6 months with no luck? The property my parents own is one of the only few in town that is surrounded by an actual fire wall (in the spiritual realm of course) on top of that, they've been told that above the property stands guard warring angels. All this because my mother being a strong Christian has proclaimed the promises of God stated in the bible.
- it's been six months and the only trouble they've ever gotten is waking up to loud bangs on the roof in the early hours of the morning. With footsteps back and forth on the roof.
So you see, no matter what you say to convince believers otherwise, someone of us have lived the so called "infinitely complex" life first hand. Some of us were born into it due to our culture. My ancestors laid worship to other spiritual beliefs before Chrisitianity was introduced to the land. Because of that, we're some of the lucky ones to have a full contrast of what it's all about. To truly understand that Jesus Christ is the real deal and there's no rival.
I may come across as harsh but I have nothing but empathy for everyone in opposition on here. You're missing out on something that's as real as me and you. And the main reason may very well be the main point that I had, paltering to keep you away from the truth.
This is where i stopped reading, i assume you have little or no idea who or what killed Gnosticism? go do some reading yourself. Fundie christians are not interested in spirituality, early christian sects rejected the notion of 'son of god' and believed in the Christic principle and they were persecuted for that. The romans were specifically lookking for a 'saviour' concept, similar to what exists in other religions back then. Any christian sect who didnt believe in such were persecuted. The fact that you don't know that shows you are a fundamentalist and not spiritual.
A lot of words, in the end you could have summed it up in 2 sentnences.
And this gem tooo
Just like Muslims guarantee about Allah, Hindus guarantee about Shiva? let me guess you are right, they are wrong, cause of Jesus being the American idol? terrible terrible argument! If Jesus is the real deal how come Christianity is losing it's followers on a a record scale? Europe is majority irreligious now, Australia the same too, American is on a massive slide as well. I guess they are not 'real christians' and you the the only one? people are recognising the con you are putting here and trust me , no one is buying your shit here. 5 billion people worldwide don't buy the fact Jesus is the son of god. It's nothing more than your word against theirs, again terrible argument.
I am not here to convince you or any other fundie friends you have, i am saying spirituality is infinitely complex and not ONE religion can claim the right to it. So to know the collective unconscious (as Jung Puts it), you need to rise above your intellect (intellect is only useful for the material world). If you haven't done that, you have been coned i am afraid, subjected to confirmation bias. I was born in a catholic family myself and i identity myself as 'not religious' but defiinitely not ' not spiritual'. Go do some some reading on archetypes, Gnosticsm, Symbolism etc. Maybe this is far beyond you, but you can give it a try outside of "i prayed to Jesus and he gave me a Porsche" argument.
Please pardon my ignorance, i couldn't read your entire post, it's just a horrible read overall. Pretty much confirms everything i have said about you being a fundamentalist follow of an organized religion. Maybe you wish to have this conversation with your mate Vdubs who believes God is listening to him too.
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Sixandahalf
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I love how you try to paint Christianity under one brush. What does Gnosticism have to do with my background? Did you not read my whole spiel on paltering within Christianity? Apparently not.
As if pitting another belief against mine is a great argument. Watch out, you might start sounding like the Christian, Muslim, and Hindu....oh wait.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you're into the new age spirituality stuff? Yeah mate, that's about as effective as taking snake oil pills. Don't get me wrong, people might engage the spiritual realm with that sort of belief but that's a sure fine way of deluding yourself.
Do you really trust yourself, let alone your subconscious mind?
I edited my post above, the fact that you don't know spirituality is not related to the organised religion you believe in, shows exactly, why i am right.
The book of Joshua mentions meditation 5 times, OT mentions meditation about 20 odd (maybe more) times for a reason. The practices been killed off to suit the purpose and precisely why any spirituality arm (like Gnositic movement) of Christianity been chopped off to prevent the saviour concept from going down the gutter. You wou;dn't have a clue about what i am on about, do some reading.
I repeat , i am not against christianity, it's a small subset of the bigger spirituality, i am against fundamentalists like you.
Sixandahalf
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For someone who likes to constantly tell people to read you don't do much yourself do you? Or you lack understanding or you're presuming what someone else is trying to convey?
Not once did I say Christianity had the right to "spirituality". Nor did I say it was ever related to spirituality. Learn to read. I stated that because of my ancestors being in touch with their spiritual side, it was a seamless transition into the Christian beliefs. The Christian belief being rooted in a supernatural being. Our cultural beliefs are spiritual in nature and overlaps with the interaction of the spiritual realm. The same spiritual realm spoken of in the Christian belief. The one that exists outside of what your brain thinks up.
I know exactly what you're on about. Hence why I asked what Gnosticism has to do with my background. Gnosticism gave way to individuals being deluded into thinking they were God and the center of the universe. Actually deluded isn't the right word...deceived.
Humor me for a minute and look at it from a Christian point of view. The sworn adversary of the Christian is known as the great deceiver. Now when one meditates, one is allowing thoughts to enter into one's mind freely without screening them, embracing whatever may come. Am I correct? Have you ever had a nasty thought appear out of nowhere and you had no idea how it got to your mind? Christians refer to that as the Deceiver being at work trying to manipulate.
You'll understand why Gnosticism was in the crosshairs. But somewhere along the line, Christianity lost the concept of meditation which I agree with you is an integral part for a Christan believer. Just not the way you think it should be.
When meditating, the person's thoughts have to align with the truth to keep said person from being deceived. Like I asked, do you really trust your mind? We all have random thoughts coming into our mind every now and then which are not what we'd align ourselves with, do you still trust your mind?
Meditation is a lost concept in European Christianity. Again it falls back to my main point, paltering. Western Christianity is so far removed from true Christianity because of it's bastardisation from Rome, it's not even funny.
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I can't be bothered reading the rest of it but this has been the argument from the beginning. Krishna is not famous, Jesus is, hence Jesus is the real deal as he is the rockstar. So if Islam surpasses Christianity (as it's poised to in the next 30 odd years), then Islam is the real deal? as i said, its not a popularity contest, Christianity is on the decline in the countries it originated from, some 1800 years ago and it's a massive slide, do you want me to post the stats for you?
You again misunderstood the point i made about Gnosticism. Early Christian sects were deeply spiritual. But they were persecuted for their beliefs, similarly what's happenng with Islamic sects like Sufs of Ahmediyaas or Hazaras right now were Sunni and Shia schools dominate. What i am trying to say is Gnostic movement was stopped to promote the concept of a saviour, similar to what happened in India and around the world at that time. Read about India and How buddhism was driven out of India and how Krishna was promoted as a saviour by the people in power to gain control over the populace. Similar things happened in the council of Nicosea. Those gospels which didn't affirm Jesus as the son of god was discarded. Are you aware of those Gospels? or they don't exist because the council decided they are not fair dinkum?
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Well said. I see no evidence from Christians to suggest anyone is listening on the other end of the line. Any messages they're hearing are just echoes.
No different to Allah answering my prayers or Shiva. This is (the point) what i can't get across! confirmation bias is strong! they really believe that good things are happening in their life cause of god and the prayers, but no one takes ownership of bad shit (when shit happens it's always my fault or satan)
Sixandahalf
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Popularity in terms of numbers doesn't decide truth yes. What matters is that truth is always constant.
The Gnostic movement in Christianity formed as a separate sect looking to bring pagan beliefs into Christian beliefs. Even among themselves, the Gnostic sects were largely contradictory in their beliefs. They couldn't decide who Jesus was for example.
Here comes the "gain control over the populace" argument.
The gospels not included were all either contradictory or references to the 4 main gospels. The Gospel of Thomas for example claimed Jesus was God but not man.
I'm getting the vibe that you're trying to make out Gnosticism as a victim. I'm sorry but would you be insisting science include all erroneous and contradictory theories throughout it's history in it's current official and factual text? This is hardly a sound argument. The council decided on what to do based on what was passed on down from the first apostles.
It’s the threat they love the most, all christians use it, “believe or else”, it’s so benign and down right pathetic, “black knight”.
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I am not saying Gnositcism was a 'victim', i am saying to you that every religion has multiple interpretations of the same story, Gnosticism was one of them. And to persecute is the ultimate appeal to authority, is precisely why Christianity got bastardized in the first place.
And to the whole 'Jesus was god' story, just out of curiousity, why do you buy that? cause of the Gospel of Johnn? Gnostics were totally within their right not to believe in stuff written in The Gospel of John or not to take the interpretation literally, specially when other Gospels mention **** all about Jesus being god. Muslims, Jews agree Jesus was NOT god! There is actually very little evidence outside of that one specific Gospel that Jesus was God and even Gospel of John is not clear on it. Whether you agree with this or not it doesn't matter, but lets not say they are 'wrong' based on your beliefs.
For a start, take away John, you have little to no evidence for your claims that Jesus was God. Justin Martyr, Polycarp- never mentioned John ever in his writings on early Christianity..
Take the most supernatural/amazing of all Jesus’s miracles-bringing a human back to life!. Lazarus story only occurs in John? The oldest of the 4 Gospels?. Same for the story of the adulteress, the “he who is without sin cast the first stone” one. The earliest manuscripts didn’t have this story..
John contradicts the other Gospels. Matthew has Mary Magdalene seeing an angel at the tomb, John has Mary finding the tomb empty..Matt,Mark and Luke has the Disciples eating the Passover meal, yet in John, Jesus dies before Passover?
John was not educated, he certainly could not converse in highly stylized Greek. with the rhetoric and literature available only to learned Greeks or those with patronage. Acts 4:13 says “ Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived they were ‘unlearned’, they marveled”.
Jesus spoke of His adherence to Mosaic Law, yet in John, His Law is referred to as ‘your Law’.. John was created for a Greek audience. John has Him ‘Greekified’.. ( I know Hellenised is more correct, but I like Greekified.. ) ....Third person narrative?. If John is a first person account as is claimed, why is it written in the 3rd person?
Perhaps no NT writer has tried to preach the divinity of Jesus than John, whose own account of the crucifixion, including his final words were written to portray a Jesus who willingly offered himself to the Roman soldiers. The gospel of John, whose authorship is debated, was written several years after the synoptic gospels. Even if you were to only consider the gospel of John, you still won't have a clear view of who Jesus is. If he said "Before Abraham was, I am", he did also say that "The Father is greater than I". He did also refer to the Father as "my God".
The preponderance of evidence that is quoted supporting the divinity of Jesus are from John as well as the writings of Paul. I would be very surprised if the Christians doesn't notice this trend. How historical was this gospel? Did Jesus truly say those things? If we are to go with the synoptic gospels however, we'll come up with a Jesus who's more human and was less grandiose about the claims he made about himself.
In short, you are entitled to your interpretation of it, but so are Gnostics, they are not 'incorrect' in their interpretation, but you are just being a fundamentalist dweeb in suggesting 'my interpretation is the correct one'
Roylion what are your thoughts on the Gospel of John and what i said above?
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