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Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
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indoistriku
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- Nov 29, 2020
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Yes, it was taken from Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller, an American pastor. I've added the source.
The Bible is exceedingly clear that there is one God. He is three Persons. Father, Son and Holy Ghost. As I previously mentioned, you've taken Christ's words out of context. Specifically, you have ignored the entire witness of Scripture as regards its teaching on the doctrine of the Trinity, and have isolated a quote from Christ with a very specific meaning. It is a textbook example of stripping words of their context in order to present them as saying something which they do not.
You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with scholars and church fathers and several thousands of years of history, which are all in agreement in regard to what the Bible teaches on God. If they won't convince you, then I doubt I will. As for me, I'll take the word of historians and expert theologians, and the Bible itself.
Since when there is an agreement on this? You are making up history. Do Jehovah's Witness believe in Trinity? Am i missing something? Bible is not a book of history and the events were written decades after the death of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus but only had visions of Jesus. You copypasted a whole post without understanding it, the earliest Christian sects didn't believe in Trinity, i already gave the Gnostic example but Gnostics were hunted down and persecuted for this. Please refer to my earlier post about 12 apostles. There is no mention of Trinity in the Bible, out of John there is nothing in the NT that remotely refers to Jesus as god and i already argued why John is not reliable. You are argument polticial and organised christianity, i have spoken about this before, which got liittle to do with actual Christianity, since the coucil in 325 AD.
As i said please refer to my earlier posts on Jesus and God, i cant be arsed debating with a new poster on the same subject.
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- #9,103
There is no supporting evidence for the resurrection of the figure of Jesus Christ. Indeed there a number of far more believable naturaiistic explanations foe the disappearance of a body, IF in fact that did occur.
Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism claimed he was visited by an angel named Moroni while praying one night in 1823. Smith said that this angel revealed the location of a buried book made of golden plates, (the golden plates were engraved by two pre-Columbian prophet-historians from around the year AD 400 - Mormon and his son Moroni) as well as other artifacts, including a breastplate and a set of interpreters composed of two seer stones set in a frame.
Eyewitnesses said Smith translated the plates, not by looking at them, but by looking at a seer stone in the bottom of his hat. Three men later signed a statement stating that they had been shown the golden plates by an angel, and that the voice of God had confirmed the truth of their translation. Later, a further group of 'eight witnesses' — composed of male members of the Whitmer and Smith families — issued a statement that they had been shown the golden plates by Smith
Moroni was also resurrected after his death and became an angel who directed Joseph Smith to the location of the buried golden plates in the 1820s.
Surely the above just as legitimate as the resurrection of Jesus, which of coruse is only mentioned in Gospels written some time after the purported crucifixion and resurrection. There were eyewitnesses to the golden plates and the voice of God, so it must be true wouldnt it?
I've personally stood in an empty rock tomb in Jerusalem. Does that mean the original occupant was resurrected or would there be a more naturalistic explanation as to why the tomb was empty.
Christianity certainly takes part of its belief system from older religious beliefs and practices. Much of it is certainly not original.
Now he will claim the Jehovah's Witness' are also not Christian, exactly like the Muslim playbook about Sufis, Hazaras, Ahmediyaas etc.
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- #9,105
I have a large personal library of works on Biblical history and archaeology. There are many biblical scholars far more knowlegable and expert than I am. And where appropriate I'll quote or paraphrase them. They include but are not limited to Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier, Robert M. Price, R. Joseph Hoffman, William Dever, Kenneth Kitchen, Richard Horsley, John Hanson, Nicholas Perrin, Donald Akenson, John P. Meier, Dale Allison, E. P. Sanders, John Dominic Crossan, Gerd Ludemann, Hector Avalos, Geza Vermes, Karen Armstrong and Israel Finklestein
As I've said previously, I am sinless.
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If this is true, why don't Jews, who already share the bedrock of your religion, accept the divinity of Jesus when they learn about the New Testament?
How would you go about convincing a Jew to accept Jesus' divinity and convert the Christianity? Basing your entire argument on anecdotal evidence written 100 years after the death of Christ? As i said you are making up history as you go, there is no scholarly consensus on this.
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- #9,107
Which historians? What are their credentials? What is their reasoning for supporting the "fact' of the resurrection?
I have contributed over 100 posts to this thread(500+ to similar threads) although very few in the last year or so but still pop back for a look occasionally.
There has been absolutely nothing posted in this thread or similar or anything else anywhere that would convince me of the existence of an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, participatory, judgmental creator who provides a residence for "souls" upon death.
This one and the numerous others on the subject have been going round in circles for decades, the gap for a creator to fit in is ever narrowing.
God was created by man in his own image.
There has been absolutely nothing posted in this thread or similar or anything else anywhere that would convince me of the existence of an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, participatory, judgmental creator who provides a residence for "souls" upon death.
This one and the numerous others on the subject have been going round in circles for decades, the gap for a creator to fit in is ever narrowing.
God was created by man in his own image.
Nothing new to see here, same anecdotal claims, contradicting claims, my religion and my god is the real mccoy blah blah..you are right, organised religion is a cancer to the society.
Where is my facepalm meme? William Lane Craig is a historian now? do you know the difference between philosophy and history? W.Lane Craig is notorious for making up facts and both of them are christian apologists first, please factcheck him before posting crap.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon are not Christians. This is not because they simply disagree with me. I will readily admit that there exists many Christians with whom I do not agree with on doctrinal matters. But, historically, JW and LDS have never been accepted as Christians by the Christian religion. Generally, being included under the umbrella term of 'Christianity' has required, at the least, subscription to and affirmation of the Three Ecumenical Creeds. Mormons and JW do no affirm such creeds. Here is a quote from a reformation document which explicitly states that denial of the doctrine of the Trinity excludes one from the Christian relgion - written several hundred years before the invention of the religion of the Jehovah's Witnesses. (Emphasis mine).
"The First Article of our Confession our adversaries approve, in which we declare that we believe and teach that there is one divine essence, undivided, etc., and yet, that there are three distinct persons, of the same divine essence, and coeternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This article we have always taught and defended, and we believe that it has, in Holy Scripture, sure and firm testimonies that cannot be overthrown. And we constantly affirm that those thinking otherwise are outside of the Church of Christ. and are idolaters, and insult God."
Article I. Of God.
1 The First Article of our Confession our adversaries approve, in which we declare that we believe and teach that there is one divine essence, undivided, etc., and yet, that there are three distinct persons, of the same divine essence, and coeternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. 2 This article...bookofconcord.org
I do not have time to respond to your whole post. So, I have chosen this part to respond to and ask: which parts of Christianity to you claim are taken from preceding religions?
JW is a branch off from orthodox christianity, its a part of nontriniatarian school, please educate yourself.
- Jun 14, 2013
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I have faith that Essendon will win the 2021 premiership; there's no proof that Essendon won't win the 2021 premiership.
All true Essendon fans know that we'll win next years premiership. There will always be scoffers and doubters as foretold in James Hird's diary. In fact, the sheer volume of doubters and haters is strong evidence that we will win the premiership.
In the 1993 preliminary final played on the hallowed turf of the MCG between Essendon and the whore of Babylon (aka Adelaide), Babylon was up by 42 points at half time only for God's team to be resurrected and win by 11 points on their way to slaying Satan (Carlton) in the grand final.
The great awakening of the mighty Essendon empire has been prophesied. Accept the truth and put your life savings down on it now.
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White southern Americans aren't going to follow a guy that looks like a terrorist, are they?
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- #9,114
William Lane Craig is definitely not a historian.
He is a Research Professor of Apologetics and Philosophy. Most of Habermas's conclusions and arguments are based on the assumption of the absolute reliability of the stories of the gospels and little more. However, the gospels are not history textbooks, they are mostly theological works based upon historical facts in much the same manner as historical fiction is. Habermas's work does not resemble the work of historians. He basically takes the view that the events in the gospels are self-evidently true, which is just as fallacious as stating the events leading up to Mohammad's ascension are historically true by citing Islamic scripture. Habermas provides no external verification for his claims that the resurrection is an actual historical event
They're not historical works. They are theological works.
Aren't they?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is of course Mormonism. Like most other Christian groups, Mormonism teaches that there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. While the three beings are physically distinct, in Mormon theology they are one in thoughts, actions, and purpose and commonly referred to collectively as the "Godhead".
Jehovah's Witnesses believe their denomination is a restoration of first-century Christianity. They believe in a process of progressive revelation, in which God gradually reveals his will and purpose, and that such enlightenment or "new light" results from the application of reason and study,the guidance of the holy spirit, and direction from Jesus Christ and angels. The entire Protestant canon of scripture is considered the inspired, inerrant word of God and that the Bible is scientifically and historically accurate and reliable. They consider the Bible to be the final authority for all their beliefs.
So how can they not be Christians?
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Very few believers learn anything beyond apologetics, then struggle to understand why people won't accept their idea of truth.He was supposed to quote 'historians' to support his views, nek minit he quotes
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- #9,116
Early Christianity began as essentially as a Jewish sect, along the lines of the Samaritans, Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees, Zealots and so on. All had different interpretations of Second Temple Judaism, which in turn was heavily influenced by earlier religions.
For example, many of the Hebrews' pagan neighbors had a "combat myth" about the good god battling the demon of chaos; one example of this myth is the Babylonian Enuma Elish. A lesser known example is the very fragmentary myth of Labbu.
According to historian Bernard McGinn the combat myth's imagery influenced Jewish mythology. The myth of God's triumph over Leviathan a symbol of chaos, has the form of a combat myth. In addition, McGinn thinks the Hebrews applied the "combat myth" motif to the relationship between God and Satan: originally a deputy in God's court, assigned to act as mankind's "accuser" (satan means "to oppose"), Satan evolved into a being with "an apparently independent realm of operation as a source of evil" — no longer God's deputy but his opponent in a cosmic struggle. Central to Christianity.
Second Temple Judaism of which Christiantiy was a sect was also heavily influenced by th earlier Zoroastrianism.
Zoroastrianism has a similar motif of good being battling the demon of chaos, also very probably inherited from the Babylonians and the Sumerians before them.
Jacques Duchesne-Guillmin comments on the influence of Zoroastrianism, who themselves employed a combat myth on Judaism and Christianty.
"First, the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God, appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, the enemy of God. Secondly, the figure of the Messiah, originally a future King of Israel who would save his people from oppression, evolved, in Deutero-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshyant. Other points of comparison between Iran and Israel include the doctrine of the millennia; the Last Judgment; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the Resurrection; the final transformation of the earth; paradise on earth or in heaven; and hell."
Bible scholar P.R. Ackroyd states: "the whole eschatological scheme, however, of the Last Judgment, rewards and punishments, etc., within which immortality is achieved, is manifestly Zoroastrian in origin and inspiration."
Soloman Nigosian "the ideas were indigenous to Iran...it is hardly conceivable that some of the characteristic ideas and practices in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam came into being without Zoroastrian influence."
James Henry Breasted in 'The Dawn of Consciousness' also suggested that:
"There is plenty of evidence that the post-exilic religious development of the Hebrews was affected by the teachings of Zarathushtra, and that among the international influences to which the development of Hebrew morals was exposed, we must include also the teachings of the great Medo-Persian Prophet."
John Gray, who wrote a book called Near Eastern Mythology stated that
"The Persians had their own mythology, or rather their own conception of the natural and supernatural order, formulated by the religion of Zarathushtra. This cosmic philosophy, influenced by Babylonian astronomy, had an effect on late Jewish thought and Messianic expectations." [p. 16]
and
"The development of the concept of Satan as the personal power of evil, who had his counterpart in the archangel Michael, the champion of cause of man in God's purpose of creation, was probably developed under the influence of Persian Zoroastrian belief in the two conflicting spirits of good and evil...." [p. 127]
Ninian Smart & Richard D. Hecht, "Sacred texts of the world - A universal anthology":
"The (Zoroastrian) dualism between good and evil was to have an impact upon ancient Israel, Judaism, Christianity and Islam."
R.C. Zaehner, "The Dawn & Twilight of Zoroastrianism":
"Meanwhile in her encounters with the Medes and Persians, Israel had found a kindred monotheistic creed in the religion of Prophet Zarathushtra, and one of her own Prophets, Isaiah, did not hesitate to salute Cyrus, her liberator, as the Lord's anointed. From this religion too she learnt teachings concerning the afterlife altogether more congenial to her soul than had been the gloomy prospect offered her by her own tradition, teachings to which she had been a stranger before." p.20
and
"An almost exact parallel to this solution of evil is to be found in the Manual of Discipline, perhaps the most interesting document of the Dead Sea sect of Qumran. That Judaism was deeply influenced by Zoroastrianism during and after the Babylonian captivity can scarcely be questioned, and the extraordinary likeness between the Dead Sea text and the Gathic conception of the nature and origin of evil, as we understand it, would seem to point to direct borrowing on the Jewish side." [p.51-52]
and
"Zarathushtra's doctrine of rewards and punishment, of an eternity of bliss and an eternity of woe allotted to good and evil men in another life beyond the grave is so strikingly similar to Christian teaching that we cannot fail to ask whether here at least there is not a direct influence at work. The answer is surely `Yes', for the similarities are so great and the historical context is so neatly apposite that it would be carrying skepticism altogether too far to refuse to draw the obvious conclusion." [p.57]
and
"Thus from the moment the Jews first made contact with the Iranians they took over the typical Zoroastrian doctrine of an individual afterlife in which rewards are to be enjoyed and punishments endured. This Zoroastrian hope gained ever surer ground during the inter-testamentary period, and by the time of Christ it was upheld by the Pharisees, whose very name some scholars have interpreted as meaning `Persian', that is, the sect most open to Persian influence." [p.58]
Paul William Roberts, 'In Search of the birth of Jesus - The Real Journey of the Magi':
"Without Zarathushtra there would be no Christ. He was the bridge, and the Romans burnt it...."
Leo Trepp, 'A History of the Jewish Experience'
"How did the idea of two opposing forces (Satan & God) originate? It too is the result of conditions during the Hellenistic age, a period when ideas were exchanged widely among various religions and nations. The principle of dualism came from Zoroastrianism, .... This idea spread through the wide open Hellenistic world; the controversy between God and Satan is its reflection in Judaism." [p.54]
and
"....The people have a heavenly representative, a guardian angel. This is a new concept of Zoroastrian origin. Previously the term `Malakh', angel, simply meant messenger of God." [p.55]
Also derived from pagan mythology is the story of the Watchers (Genesis 6:1-4). According to this story, heavenly beings once descended to earth, intermarried with humans, and produced the nephilim, "the heroes of old, men of renown". Jewish tradition regards those heavenly beings as wicked angels, but the myth is possibly fragment of pagan mythology about gods interbreeding with humans to produce heroes.
Joseph Campbell notes that the Eden narrative's forbidden tree is an example of a motif "very popular in fairy tales. The classic story of Pandora's box, which existed in ancient Greek mythology also may have influenced Jewish tales in the Hellenistic period. Genesis clearly shows the infusion of two separate stories.
The flood stories of the Old Testament (adopted by Christianity) are clearly from the older Sumerian mythology and probably introduced in the Babylonian exile. I've explained how elsewhere.
And from AD 200-500, scholars suggest that the Talmud was heavily influenced by pagan mythology. One such aspect was the appearance of the "Shedim", or demons;
On top of the above, was the influence of Greek Hellenism on Judaism.
Scholarship has shown that not only did Hellenism influence the Jews in the Diaspora; it also significantly influenced the Jews in Palestine, as did Zoroastrianism above. In 1969, Martin Hengel, currently a professor at the University of Tubingen in Germany, published his dissertation, Judaism and Hellenism, which that at least from the middle of the third century BC, all of Judaism must be classified as "Hellenistic Judaism". Even if we don't accept that ALL Judaism was Hellensitic Judaism there's no doubt from the broad consesus of scholars that Greek thought significantly influenced Palestinian Judaism in terms of education, among other things.
For example, one of the major contributors to literature, and one that authors W.D. Davies and Daniel Boyarin refers to in Paul and Rabbinic Palestine, was Philo of Alexandria. Philo was a Jewish apologist who wrote in Greek and had a wide knowledge of Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism and Stoicism. It's his writings that give a very good example of how Jewish literature and thought (including religious thought) was influenced by outside influences, including Hellenism.
Another example is the development of apocalyptic literature as part of Judaism. Because of the extreme suppression of the Jews under the Seleucids during the second century BC, this type of literature began to be widely circulated. The hopes of the Jewish faithful were fortified by visions of a glorious future and in such beliefs as a last judgment (from Zoroastrianism) , the resurrection of the dead and that the Messiah will come and rescue His people
It is also clear that the Jewish belief in the afterlife changed during the Hellenistic era. For example before the Hellenistic period, Judaic afterlife was defined as follows: "All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:20. This phrase is indicative of the pre-Hellenistic Jewish idea that a person’s essence dies with his body. The Hellenistic emphasis on the individual changed this belief within Judaism. Inherent in the concept of a soul, is a personal survival after physical death. The personal emphasis present in Hellenistic culture, particularly Greek philosophy, probably affected the Jewish belief in the soul, as evidenced in the Book of Daniel which was written about 160 BC, but set in the Babylonian exile.
So, there seems little doubt that under Persian and Greek influence, the Platonic notion of the divine pre-existence of the soul, its imprisonment in the human body, and its immortality was taken up in Judaism and hence later in Christianity, along with many other ideas that were to form the basis of Second Temple Judaism and Christianity.
So based on the above, why is it so difficult to believe that in the first and second centuries AD a new Jewish sect [i.e Christianity] could adopt pagan motifs (as their forebears had clearly done) and make it part of their new sect’s religious ideology? After all Christianity also continued other Judaic practices such as baptism, liturgical worship, including the use of incense, an altar, a set of scriptural readings adapted from synagogue practice, use of music in hymns and prayer, and a religious as well as other distinctive features such as an exclusively male priesthood, so why not also incorporate older pagan motifs as well to make their beleifs more attractive to the public at large?
Now I'll sit down and spend a pleasant evening watching the very pleasent fiction "Ben Hur".
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It’s pretty obvious the information provided is not from Wikipedia articles, as you facetiously put it.
You talk about original thoughts but can’t cite any information that isn’t from one old debunked book.
ignorance is bliss
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
That is the BEST thing I've read on this thread. Today, anyway..If that's the worst criticism you can muster, i claim a small win. That is the essence of our knowledge and faith. If some of you actually read it with an open mind and heart, who knows??
Oh the irony, when it comes other religions outside of Christianity.(fundie version)
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Open heart and mind to what?
Vdubs
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You have no need to be here, unless you are deluded, and secretly seeking help.
Jesus is for us sinners.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Being receptive to any pearls that may actually have an impact on you.
Instead of reading it with a haughty preconceived idea you are above it all.
He means accept that zombies rose and went for a walk.
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- #9,124
Why not? I like it here. It's fascinating to observe those that believe in something by nothing more than faith.
It appears so. He is not needed though for the many who are sinless.
Do you actually realise some of us left christianity for good? i was born in a Catholic family and i did study the bible (i still do) and i went to church for almost 2 decades of my life. Please stop insulting other people.
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