Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Roylion]

Being receptive to any pearls that may actually have an impact on you.

Well I haven't read any so far.

Instead of reading it with a haughty preconceived idea you are above it all.

You have to provide something more than just faith. I haven't read anything from you or any other Christian beyond that.

 

[Vdubs]

Well I haven't read any so far.



You have to provide something more than just faith. I haven't read anything from you or any other Christian beyond that.

Personal need for salvation, rescue from sin, and relationship with God
Personal experiences of the love of God.
Personal faith as a result.
Countless people in this suburb, city, state , this country, and overseas with similar salvation.
2000 plus years of peoples' lives having been permanently and radically changed by Christ for the betterment of them and their contacts.
These are the reasons we have faith, because we have had and continue to have such things happen to us.
Surely if it was not real, you would not see or hear people living this "delusion" for 60-70 plus years.
Just because you can not explain it with research, science or logic, it can not make Christianity unfounded.
Having these communications with posters like you, believe it or not , is an answer to prayer.
You may well be entrenched in your way of thinking, and if things have been said by us Christians that have turned you off, apologies.
We are not equipped to handle your questions, but the fact that you have them, and come here anyway, even if is to shoot us down, is a small win.
And God is beyond all of this. He knows who will come to Him, we don't. How He uses us is up to our availability, and the receptiveness of those who don't yet know Him.

 

[Total Power]

Personal need for salvation, rescue from sin, and relationship with God
Personal experiences of the love of God.
Personal faith as a result.
Countless people in this suburb, city, state , this country, and overseas with similar salvation.
2000 plus years of peoples' lives having been permanently and radically changed by Christ for the betterment of them and their contacts.
These are the reasons we have faith, because we have had and continue to have such things happen to us.
Surely if it was not real, you would not see or hear people living this "delusion" for 60-70 plus years.
Just because you can not explain it with research, science or logic, it can not make Christianity unfounded.
Having these communications with posters like you, believe it or not , is an answer to prayer.
You may well be entrenched in your way of thinking, and if things have been said by us Christians that have turned you off, apologies.
We are not equipped to handle your questions, but the fact that you have them, and come here anyway, even if is to shoot us down, is a small win.
And God is beyond all of this. He knows who will come to Him, we don't. How He uses us is up to our availability, and the receptiveness of those who don't yet know Him.

The same way millions if not billions of Muslims get their salvation from Allah? or Hindus from Shiva? you realise Christianity is declining in all countries where it start spreading from. Yes ALL COUNTRIES in Europe.

Your faith is nothing more than a confrmation bias that someone is listening, my neighbour is Muslim and he told me Allah granted him a wish after he visited Mecca last year, it would have been impossible without Allahs will.

I work 6 months a year in India, i can swear, 100s of followers watched Sai Baba rise from the dead (resurrection but in modern times) , you can even youtube it, eyewitness' etc. Surely if all those were not real, you would not hear and see people make such claims, Islam is afterall the fastest growing religion iin the planet.

There is something else called critical thinking. Prayer experiments have been done, hundreds of times, in 100 different instution and they all came back negative! but yes, i am sure your christian god is listening to you, you priviledged one, will half of his followers are dying of hunger.

Hypocrisy at its finest. How are their claims any inferior/worse than yours? please explain.

 

[Vdubs]

The same way millions if not billions of Muslims get their salvation from Allah? or Hindus from Shiva? you realise Christianity is declining in all countries where it start spreading from. Yes ALL COUNTRIES in Europe.

Your faith is nothing more than a confrmation bias that someone is listening, my neighbour is Muslim and he told me Allah granted him a wish after he visited Mecca last year, it would have been impossible without Allahs will.

I work 6 months a year in India, i can swear, 100s of followers watched Sai Baba rise from the dead (resurrection but in modern times) , you can even youtube it, eyewitness' etc. Surely if all those were not real, you would not hear and see people make such claims, Islam is afterall the fastest growing religion iin the planet.

There is something else called critical thinking. Prayer experiments have been done, hundreds of times, in 100 different instution and they all came back negative! but yes, i am sure your christian god is listening to you, you priviledged one, will half of his followers are dying of hunger.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

You have come up with this before.
You have nothing to worry about.
Christianity is declining.
Why are you posting here? You have no questions.

 

[Total Power]

You have come up with this before.
You have nothing to worry about.
Christianity is declining.
Why are you posting here? You have no questions.

You havent answered my main question, how is "your claim" any better/worse than theirs? they are claiming the same as you

 

[Total Power]

You have come up with this before.
You have nothing to worry about.
Christianity is declining.
Why are you posting here? You have no questions.

You are not prepared to answer my question, i asked a question, you refused to answer it. 'Faith' is not an answer. 'My friend won a Lotto after his church visit' is not an objective answer either.

 

[Evolved1]

Why are those who ask others to be open-minded often the most closed-minded to facts and logic?

If you're open to magical claims based on nothing other than faith, but closed to science, you prefer fiction to non-fiction.

Being so open minded that your brain falls out is the domain of the gullible. Its not a positive trait.

 

[Total Power]

Here's testimony from someone who was raised from the dead - apparently witnessed by thousands of people.



Do you now accept that Sathya Sai Baba has supernatural powers or that he is the one true god?

Is he the true god Vdubs ?

See how 'evidence' works if you wish to believe in it?

How is their supernatural claim worse than yours? Atleast there is evidence of him existing unlike Jesus of Nazareth.

Are you saying there are multiple gods then?

 

[Total Power]

Why are those who ask others to be open-minded often the most closed-minded to facts and logic?

If you're open to magical claims based on nothing other than faith, but closed to science, you prefer fiction to non-fiction.

Being so open minded that your brain falls out is the domain of the gullible. Its not a positive trait.

He is only asking people to be open minded about his religion, notice when i ask him about other religions he refuses to answer or comes with typical 'Jesus is the only true god' answer. How is it open minded, dismissing something without reading or understanding?

 

[Vdubs]

Here's testimony from someone who was raised from the dead - apparently witnessed by thousands of people.



Do you now accept that Sathya Sai Baba has supernatural powers or that he is the one true god?

Is he the true god Vdubs ?

See how 'evidence' works if you wish to believe in it?

How is their supernatural claim worse than yours? Atleast there is evidence of him existing unlike Jesus of Nazareth.

Are you saying there are multiple gods then?

Interesting .
There is only one God, one Creator.
There have always been multiple gods, ie anything or person that takes away the focus on the one true God.

 

[Roylion]

Personal need for salvation, rescue from sin, and relationship with God
Personal experiences of the love of God.
Personal faith as a result.

Faith only. Not particularly convincing.

Countless people in this suburb, city, state , this country, and overseas with similar salvation.

Through faith. People choose all sorts of causes and world views for all sorts of reasons. I prefer to base my world view on empirical evidence and observation, such as my opinion that evolution is fact.

2000 plus years of peoples' lives having been permanently and radically changed by Christ for the betterment of them and their contacts.

Argumentum ad populum. A fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so." Muslims converts could argue the same.

These are the reasons we have faith, because we have had and continue to have such things happen to us.

Largely subjective.

Just because you can not explain it with research, science or logic, it can not make Christianity unfounded.

Christianity is founded on the resurrection of Jesus. There is no evidence to support such an event happenong. You believe it by faith only.

We are not equipped to handle your questions,

You have no answers for them.

but the fact that you have them,

'God' is unknowable. You claim to 'know God. I want to know on what basis. All you have to offer is 'though faith.'

and come here anyway, even if is to shoot us down, is a small win.

If you say so.

And God is beyond all of this. He knows who will come to Him, we don't. How He uses us is up to our availability, and the receptiveness of those who don't yet know Him.

'God', if it exists, is unknowable. God, as the product of man's imagination, is therefore made and cast in man's image.

 

[Roylion]

There is only one God, one Creator.

How do you know this? Upon what basis do you make this claim? Why should we assume that you are correct?

 

[Total Power]

Interesting .
There is only one God, one Creator.

that's the point, you said resurrection is everything that makes christianity that it is. I am telling you it's not a big deal, resurrection and testiminals and witness to the dead rising historically is not uncommon and it's happening throughout our human history. You have continuously banged on how about this is unique to Christianity, i am saying it's not and i have provided multiple evidence from other religions and cultures having the same story too. Not a small religion other 1.1 billion people believe in this story.

So back to my old question. What makes your supernatural claim better/worse than theirs? what makes you think Mohammed was not holy and didn't split the moon? what makes you think Sai Baba didnt rise from the dead despite 1000's saying they witnessed it? Sai Baba also prophcised rising from the dead so what makes him less than Jesus? He was holy, more a billion people think he was. Yet somehow you believe in the Jesus story where there are no one wrote down anything, no eyewitneess etc only anecdotal evidence based on texts written decades after the incident? I am afraid to say your position is extreme weak compared to the miracles in other religions.

Even if the resurrection had occurred, it still wouldn't make Jesus god. As i said, your argument is childish, my miracles are better than your miracles, this is a silly argument to have, you talk about being open minded, i think it's about time you start being that about other religions and understand Abrahamic religions are quite new in the grand scheme of things. I am not against Christianity, i am against fundamentalism, which you are displaying here, my religion is greater than yours ****

There have always been multiple gods, ie anything or person that takes away the focus on the one true God.

What evidence do you have to support this? What about Islam? Hinduism? Combined they have much more followers than yours. How on earth can you claim to know this? But i can disprove the Bible. Well, we know that objectively there was never a biblical flood, that already disproves God as written in the Bible. Of course Christians can cherry pick and dismiss as metaphors all the things they don't like to avoid their God being falsifiable, but as written literally in the Bible many things disprove God. Secondly, the bedrock of your religion Judaism disagrees with everything you believe in.The fact that Yehwah's character the character of the bloke presented in NT is completely different. Yet they are supposed to be the same god Yet Jesus stood up for Yehwah several times in the NT.

And before you accuse you of 'cherry picking' again, it's you who is cherry picking. The character of the god presented in the Bible is brutal. Last i would say that evolution ensures there was no 'first two' humans, evolution just doesn't work that way. There is no line in the sand, or single attribute the separates human from our non-human ancestors. If there was no first two humans, then there was no eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and no 'original sin'. Without original sin, there's no need for a savior; therefore no Jesus.

Your Christian mate above tried to claim history supports his claim yet came up with William Lane Craig as his answer. You will find no discipline supports your claim outside of 'but i have faith'. Do you disagree? and i asked you several times, what about other religions? what makes their claim worse than yours?

Again, i asked you valid questions, which i am sure i will get no reply to.

 

[Toump Ass]

My neighbour is Muslim and he told me Allah granted him a wish after he visited Mecca last year, it would have been impossible without Allahs will.

When Toump Ass was a little boy, he ask his mother "How do we know God is real?"... and then SLAP! Right across Toump Ass' beautiful face with the back of the mother's hand!

"Look at your grandmother! She was blind, and then she pray to Lord Jesus, now she can see! This is proof of God's benevolence and powers!"







... and so I thought to myself "What a selfish campaigner. Could have ended war and famine throughout the world, bestowed the family with more goats, why not bring the family puppy dog back to life? Instead, 99 year old woman gets eye sight back, what does she even have to look at? Why didn't the old bat pray for some television reception instead?!?!?!"

 

[Total Power]

When Toump Ass was a little boy, he ask his mother "How do we know God is real?"... and then SLAP! Right across Toump Ass' beautiful face with the back of the mother's hand!

"Look at your grandmother! She was blind, and then she pray to Lord Jesus, now she can see! This is proof of God's benevolence and powers!"







... and so I thought to myself "What a selfish campaigner. Could have ended war and famine throughout the world, bestowed the family with more goats, why not bring the family puppy dog back to life? Instead, 99 year old woman gets eye sight back, what does she even have to look at? Why didn't the old bat pray for some television reception instead?!?!?!"

I have business interests in several 3rd world countries, including India where i spend atleast 3 months a year. The number of claims like: 'god granted me a wish and i passed an exam which got me a super job' , 'god cured my aunt of stage 4 cancer', 'doctor told me i can never have a child but god granted me my wish and now i have a child' etc etc claims are commonn in every household (almost). I have asked our educated friend Vdubs multiple times about this, why would god grant favours like that but can't feed the hungry, can't stop child abuse, rape, paedophilia etc? It's more important to grant a privileged family the wish to have a 2nd son, but when a cyclone destroys everything the poor has, he is nowhere to be seen. Even if such a god exists who grants wishes based on 'personal relationship' (that even Christian, which leaves 5 bllion people out in cold), do we really need to worship such a being, who grants wishes conditional to the fact that you must accept, pray, love me then i might consider grant you wishes which will make your life even more privileged?

My chat with many pastors and bishops all over Europe resulted in 'but you are becoming greedy, god doesnt like greedy'. Ok cool, Why doesn't all child cancer get cured by prayer? Is that also a question out of greed, out of you animal self?

A similar question, if God has a plan for everyone/everything, what is the point in praying? Why pray for God to save your sick child if it doesnt help at all? At what stage and under circumstances does god decides to intervene on 'free will'?

 

[Toump Ass]

I'm from one of those "third world" countries.

They're super-religious, and insane with superstition. I understand it though. When you live in abject poverty of course you're going to find solace in the idea of a world beyond our own where you don't have to pick seeds out of dog-shit for something to feed your kids.

And it's comforting to know that even if you have nothing that nice guy in the sky might throw you something if you ask for it nicely enough.





But if you grew up in this "Great Southern Land!" believing that shit...

 

[Total Power]

I'm from one of those "third world" countries.

They're super-religious, and insane with superstition. I understand it though. When you live in abject poverty of course you're going to find solace in the idea of a world beyond our own where you don't have to pick seeds out of dog-sh*t for something to feed your kids.

And it's comforting to know that even if you have nothing that nice guy in the sky might throw you something if you ask for it nicely enough.





But if you grew up in this "Great Southern Land!" believing that sh*t...

While this is all true, they still believe they are in direct touch with 'god' . none different to the Christians who believe in the same. But how many of these types actually pray for something not related to them at all? like how of them pray for God to stop wars or stop rape? How many of them pray for Africa? How many of them pray for a cure to cancer? Obviously if many of them are, it's not working at all. It always about my interests, my wife, my dad, my son, my money, my health me, me me me me and more me....the world revolves around me. This is precisely why i stay away from organized religion. Read a book, pray and you are in touch with God, it's that simple.

 

[Total Power]

I also wish to ask , why in all illustrations all gods are white with brown hair and blue eyes? I assume white people were created in gods image? well that will explain why first world countries are majority white.

 

[Toump Ass]

While this is all true, they still believe they are in direct touch with 'god' . none different to the Christians who believe in the same. But how many of these types actually pray for something not related to them at all? like how of them pray for God to stop wars or stop rape? How many of them pray for Africa? How many of them pray for a cure to cancer?

Loads of pastors do this on a Sunday. Not Catholics in my experience, their sermons are shit house. But the Anglicans are all about that community and helping out people who are struggling, that was what jesus said to do after all.

 

[Total Power]

Loads of pastors do this on a Sunday.

So all their prayers go unanswered? well that's comforting to know lol

 

[Gethelred]

Please comment on the 2 chapters.

It speaks to a lot of the issues that have been rubbished on this thread.

And regarding the "liked" posts, there is nothing wrong with quoting actual scripture, when your guru quotes his wikipedia science and history verbatim to your delight.

I think it's funny you're poo-pooing Wikipedia, when it's subject to more rigorous fact based standards than the bible is.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes, it was taken from Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller, an American pastor. I've added the source.

The Bible is exceedingly clear that there is one God. He is three Persons. Father, Son and Holy Ghost. As I previously mentioned, you've taken Christ's words out of context. Specifically, you have ignored the entire witness of Scripture as regards its teaching on the doctrine of the Trinity, and have isolated a quote from Christ with a very specific meaning. It is a textbook example of stripping words of their context in order to present them as saying something which they do not.

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with scholars and church fathers and several thousands of years of history, which are all in agreement in regard to what the Bible teaches on God. If they won't convince you, then I doubt I will. As for me, I'll take the word of historians and expert theologians, and the Bible itself.

Argument to authority, albeit a really weird one.

Was the earth flat, simply because it was widely believed? Was the earth at the centre of existence, because it was widely believed?

Confirmation bias, the post.

 

[Admiral Byng]

For many of us here, the whole exercise of faith is the problem. It is believing something to be true because you want it to be true, backed up with no more than confirmation bias. Many people posting in this thread, like me, grew up in a Christian household and attended regular church services, but could never make it work as adults.

The whole bit about having preconceived and haughty ideas is misplaced. For me, it was only after faith didn't work that I started studying critical scholarship of the bible and early church history. If you study it, the whole idea of Christianity emerging fully formed and complete in the decade or two after the 33 CE seems unrealistic, and those that cling to it seem preconceived and haughty. It is quite clear that Christianity took a couple of centuries to fully mature, and that it is the collective works of man over several generations who carefully wrote, rewrote, redacted, edited, added and merged the texts.

 

[M Malice]

Prayer works in mysterious ways >

 

[Toump Ass]

...

Dude on the right looks like he threw his prayer at that mohummad guy, could be the problem here.

In any case he could probably do with a meal too, it's hard work praying deeply and with conviction when you're distracted by hunger pain. Unlucky.