Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Vdubs]

When you're ready, I have my grandfather's birth certificate available.

That is not an eyewitness account . Anybody could fabricate that.

 

[Vdubs]

Pulling apart the bible through arguing about mistranslations, logical fallacies, immoral lessons, scientific errors, historical evidence, and contradictions has plenty of value.

There's no common ground to debate from if you aren't willing to concede anything along the way.

I'm happy to concede ground on the basis of technicalities such as not being able to disprove god or the veracity of some bible claims. Life is about playing the odds, and the odds show that adherents of the Christian faith are gambling their life on an outcome with a low probability of success.

This is where I feel for you lot. What are we actually gambling away or losing? Nothing. The "real' world here, as you know it, does not cut it for Christians. We have been down those roads with you. If we are living lives as Christians, and it turns out to be fallacious, what have we lost? Nothing.
You, on the other hand, have eternity to think about your choices if Christianity is the truth.
And if you are correct, we are equal at the end of time. I don't see how we actually gamble away anything. It is all with you. You had the truth, disagreed with it, walked away. Check.

 

[Roylion]

This is where I feel for you lot. What are we actually gambling away or losing? Nothing. The "real' world here, as you know it, does not cut it for Christians. If we are living lives as Christians, and it turns out to be fallacious, what have we lost? Nothing. You, on the other hand, have eternity to think about your choices if Christianity is the truth.

Muslims believe in the concept of Paradise (Jannah), which is where people go if they have lived a good life. Muslims also believe in Hell (Jahannam), which is where people go if they have lived a evil life or have committed shirk, which is the sin of regarding anything as an equal or partner of Allah .

Muslims believe they get to Paradise by living religiously, asking Allah for forgiveness and showing good actions in their life. These good actions will be rewarded on the Last Day. Therefore, obeying the rules set by Allah is of ultimate importance.

Why is this not the 'truth'?

 

[Vdubs]

Muslims believe in the concept of Paradise (Jannah), which is where people go if they have lived a good life. Muslims also believe in Hell (Jahannam), which is where people go if they have lived a evil life or have committed shirk, which is the sin of regarding anything as an equal or partner of Allah .

Muslims believe they get to Paradise by living religiously, asking Allah for forgiveness and showing good actions in their life. These good actions will be rewarded on the Last Day. Therefore, obeying the rules set by Allah is of ultimate importance.

Why is this not the 'truth'?

If you are confused by that, just remember what Jesus said. John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

 

[Evolved1]

This is where I feel for you lot. What are we actually gambling away or losing? Nothing. The "real' world here, as you know it, does not cut it for Christians. We have been down those roads with you.

With due respect, you haven't been down any roads with those of us who've escaped the shackles of organised religion.

If we are living lives as Christians, and it turns out to be fallacious, what have we lost? Nothing.

That depends on the alternative. If Muslims are right, you're ****ed. If I'm right, you've chosen comfortable lies over searching for truth. I don't have any threats from boogymen to scare you into accepting my pov.

You, on the other hand, have eternity to think about your choices if Christianity is the truth.

If your god is real, he's a psychopath. He doesn't seem like the type of person/deity I want to spend a lot of time with. The devil seems like a more honest, intelligent, and decent being assuming the bible is an accurate depiction of each character.

And if you are correct, we are equal at the end of time. I don't see how we actually gamble away anything. It is all with you. You had the truth, disagreed with it, walked away. Check.

You haven't learned the difference between belief and truth, and probably never will.

 

[Total Power]

That is not an eyewitness account . Anybody could fabricate that.

Cool, so 1,000 people witnessed Mohammed split the moon. So you agree Mo did that then?

So Islam is the real deal?

 

[Total Power]

This is where I feel for you lot. What are we actually gambling away or losing? Nothing. The "real' world here, as you know it, does not cut it for Christians. We have been down those roads with you. If we are living lives as Christians, and it turns out to be fallacious, what have we lost? Nothing.
You, on the other hand, have eternity to think about your choices if Christianity is the truth.
And if you are correct, we are equal at the end of time. I don't see how we actually gamble away anything. It is all with you. You had the truth, disagreed with it, walked away. Check.

Same applies to Muslims and Jews? what if they are right and you are wrong that Jesus is not the son of god? that's within your religion (sons of Abraham). Claims are claims. You don't even have an agreement within your own group, let alone non-Abrahamic religions.

 

[Roylion]

If you are confused by that, just remember what Jesus said. John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

What the gospels say/claim is immaterial.

The contents of the gospels have no more value that what is in the Quran which is also claimed to be the literal Word of God. Muslims believe that the Quran was orally revealed by God to the final prophet, Muhammad

 

[Vdubs]

Same applies to Muslims and Jews? what if they are right and you are wrong that Jesus is not the son of god? that's within your religion (sons of Abraham). Claims are claims. You don't even have an agreement within your own group, let alone non-Abrahamic religions.

Up to you to deal with the what-ifs.
You can keep sitting on the fence, or on the other side of it with non-acceptors of the truth.
Again, all i can say is read John 14:6

 

[Gethelred]

That is not an eyewitness account . Anybody could fabricate that.

As a legal document - one I obtained from the Department of Births and Deaths - it would be exceedingly difficult for someone so dastardly to 1) infiltrate the department of births and deaths, 2) get to be on the front counter, and 3) be there at the specific time and day that I arrived with the $$$ to purchase my grandfather's birth certificate. In short, it's easy to verify through the line of provenance that my grandfather is my grandfather, my father is my father, and I am who I am. There is a line of paperwork, there are records around all of us.

Now, to the point of this exercise: this is exceedingly stupid. I can and have access to the birth certificates of my family members. You're making a false equivalence so obvious it's redundant to state. Perhaps reconsider your flippancy, because it is making you look idiotic.

And - finally - it is deeply ironic that you hold a government document - one you, as a doctor, could very well have signed more than a few of - less reliable than you do an ideological document subject to revision for ideological purposes and translation error. Seriously, I may die from the irony.

Someone call a hospital. No, not the one with you in it.

 

[Vdubs]

What the gospels say/claim is immaterial.

The contents of the gospels have no more value that what is in the Quran which is also claimed to be the literal Word of God. Muslims believe that the Quran was orally revealed by God to the final prophet, Muhammad

The God who created all things has given us His word in the Bible.
He Has given us his son, Jesus, who was crucified for our sin and was resurrected to give us all hope.
If you call The Good News immaterial, so be it.

 

[Roylion]

Again, all i can say is read John 14:6

Ive read it. It means little. It's just another unsubstantiated claim of no more worth than any other from other religions on how to access "heaven".

 

[Total Power]

Up to you to deal with the what-ifs.
You can keep sitting on the fence, or on the other side of it with non-acceptors of the truth.
Again, all i can say is read John 14:6

What if what? why is your eyewitness account > theirs? You said 500 people said zombies rise from the grave i am saying 1,000 people saw Mo split the moon .. 1000>50. So why are they not right?

Read John? ha ha ha come on mate, John is not the most reliable of the Gospels, i explained to you many many times why. In orthodox Christian countries, they say nothing written in John comes close to anything Jesus stood for. I quoted you the book too.

 

[Vdubs]

As a legal document - one I obtained from the Department of Births and Deaths - it would be exceedingly difficult for someone so dastardly to 1) infiltrate the department of births and deaths, 2) get to be on the front counter, and 3) be there at the specific time and day that I arrived with the $$$ to purchase my grandfather's birth certificate. In short, it's easy to verify through the line of provenance that my grandfather is my grandfather, my father is my father, and I am who I am. There is a line of paperwork, there are records around all of us.

Now, to the point of this exercise: this is exceedingly stupid. I can and have access to the birth certificates of my family members. You're making a false equivalence so obvious it's redundant to state. Perhaps reconsider your flippancy, because it is making you look idiotic.

And - finally - it is deeply ironic that you hold a government document - one you, as a doctor, could very well have signed more than a few of - less reliable than you do an ideological document subject to revision for ideological purposes and translation error. Seriously, I may die from the irony.

Someone call a hospital. No, not the one with you in it.

You are crapping on about documents again, not eye witness accounts//

 

[Gethelred]

This is where I feel for you lot. What are we actually gambling away or losing? Nothing. The "real' world here, as you know it, does not cut it for Christians. We have been down those roads with you. If we are living lives as Christians, and it turns out to be fallacious, what have we lost? Nothing.

It isn't in what you've done to yourselves, although that's worthy of empathy. It's in what you and others of your persuasion have done to others, in deriding them, denigrating them, subjecting them to dehumanization, driving them to depression and to suicide.

Or does your community mean so little to you?

You, on the other hand, have eternity to think about your choices if Christianity is the truth.
And if you are correct, we are equal at the end of time. I don't see how we actually gamble away anything. It is all with you. You had the truth, disagreed with it, walked away. Check.

And I am quite happy to spend the eternity facing away from the god that would do as the christian god is said to have done.

 

[Roylion]

The God who created all things has given us His word in the Bible.
He Has given us his son, Jesus, who was crucified for our sin and was resurrected to give us all hope.
If you call The Good News immaterial, so be it.

You have offered little more than personal opinion about what you believe in, based on nothing more than faith. A personal opinion that I see no reason to accept.

 

[Gethelred]

You are crapping on about documents again, not eye witness accounts//

Where as you are just crapping.

A birth certificate is an eyewitness account.

 

[Total Power]

You are crapping on about documents again, not eye witness accounts//

A simple DNA test can prove that he is my grand father, what test can prove the reality of Jesus rising from the grave? you don't even have real eyewitness accounts, Paul's vision is not eyewitness. Why is that Paul didn't write who those witnesses were and only later written 40 years after Pauls letters?

 

[Total Power]

Where as you are just crapping.

His crap is like mine after a night of Vindaloo

 

[Vdubs]

A simple DNA test can prove that he is my grand father, what test can prove the reality of Jesus rising from the grave? you don't even have real eyewitness accounts, Paul's vision is not eyewitness. Why is that Paul didn't write who those witnesses were and only later written 40 years after Pauls letters?

All you are doing is refuting anything and everything that is written in the Bible that upsets your pov, but conveniently pick out the OT bits that appall you so that you can slander God. And you accuse Christians of cherry-picking!
The genealogy of Jesus Christ is there to be read. And although the accounts in Matthew and Luke are not identical, they are both accepted as genuine documents through history.
No matter what is written there, you will have your conspiracy theory.

 

[Total Power]

All you are doing is refuting anything and everything that is written in the Bible that upsets your pov, but conveniently pick out the OT bits that appall you so that you can slander God. And you accuse Christians of cherry-picking!
The genealogy of Jesus Christ is there to be read. And although the accounts in Matthew and Luke are not identical, they are both accepted as genuine documents through history.
No matter what is written there, you will have your conspiracy theory.

You got nothing outside of adhominem attacks cause you can't answer our questions? I asked a very valid question about Islam and Judaism, you refused to answer it and started attacking me instead. Faith is on very shaky grounds i assume? Hope you find critical thoughts at 68, my best wishes.

 

[Gethelred]

All you are doing is refuting anything and everything that is written in the Bible that upsets your pov, but conveniently pick out the OT bits that appall you so that you can slander God. And you accuse Christians of cherry-picking!

I'm sorry, are you saying that you don't cherry pick?

The genealogy of Jesus Christ is there to be read.

Can you supply this complete genealogy?

And although the accounts in Matthew and Luke are not identical, they are both accepted as genuine documents through history.

No, they're not.

No matter what is written there, you will have your conspiracy theory.

Where you have yet to answer the question, as prompted by Boston tiger: do you believe as he does, that one cannot truly love their family unless they are christian?

 

[Total Power]

Can you supply this complete genealogy?

Brace yourself for William Lane Craig or WLC wannnabes.

 

[Evolved1]

As a legal document - one I obtained from the Department of Births and Deaths - it would be exceedingly difficult for someone so dastardly to 1) infiltrate the department of births and deaths, 2) get to be on the front counter, and 3) be there at the specific time and day that I arrived with the $$$ to purchase my grandfather's birth certificate. In short, it's easy to verify through the line of provenance that my grandfather is my grandfather, my father is my father, and I am who I am. There is a line of paperwork, there are records around all of us.

Now, to the point of this exercise: this is exceedingly stupid. I can and have access to the birth certificates of my family members. You're making a false equivalence so obvious it's redundant to state. Perhaps reconsider your flippancy, because it is making you look idiotic.

And - finally - it is deeply ironic that you hold a government document - one you, as a doctor, could very well have signed more than a few of - less reliable than you do an ideological document subject to revision for ideological purposes and translation error. Seriously, I may die from the irony.

Someone call a hospital. No, not the one with you in it.

The devil forged your grandfathers birth certificate. It's fake news.

 

[Total Power]

The devil forged your grandfathers birth certificate. It's fake news.

But no one forged the Gospels, despite absence of any evidence outside of the Gospel and being written decades after the death of Jesus from people who never met Jesus. Remarkable, truly remarkable.