Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

What was it you were saying about transference?
Even that jury you suggested was still out will have given those supposedly deliberating the option of swearing by oath.

Ah yes the old "atheism is just a religion" trope.

 

[Opine]

Ah yes the old "atheism is just a religion" trope.

Old? That’s the formal definition (ie atheism as a religious belief) attributed to it in relevant formal instruments; including within Religious Discrimination Bill.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Old? That’s the formal definition (ie atheism as a religious belief) attributed to it in relevant formal instruments; including within Religious Discrimination Bill.

Well we atheists better get cracking and lobby our elected representatives, because that is a gross misrepresentation of atheism.

Atheism is the absence of belief in a deity or deities. Only someone with a barrow to push can twist that into itself being a "religious belief".

 

[Opine]

Well we atheists better get cracking and lobby our elected representatives, because that is a gross misrepresentation of atheism.

Atheism is the absence of belief in a deity or deities. Only someone with a barrow to push can twist that into itself being a "religious belief".

You’ll need to lobby on a much much greater scale than merely that Bill. It’s an established definition drawn from other major instruments locally, at Cth and State levels, as well as abroad.

 

[Roylion]

Well we atheists better get cracking and lobby our elected representatives, because that is a gross misrepresentation of atheism.

Atheism is the absence of belief in a deity or deities. Only someone with a barrow to push can twist that into itself being a "religious belief".

Yep. Atheism is like a religious belief like "off" is a TV channel.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You’ll need to lobby on a much much greater scale than merely that Bill. It’s an established definition drawn from other major instruments locally, at Cth and State levels, as well as abroad.

Well FMD I hate to be pulling out the dictionary to prove a point but I would suggest that if 6 of the 8 dictionaries I just consulted make no mention of "belief", only absence of belief, and the remaining two mention "belief" that there is no god but no mention of atheism being itself a religious belief, then you, and those "major instruments locally, at Cth and State levels, as well as abroad", are full of crap.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Yep. Atheism is like a religious belief like "off" is a TV channel.

Like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

 

[Opine]

Well FMD I hate to be pulling out the dictionary to prove a point but I would suggest that if 6 of the 8 dictionaries I just consulted make no mention of "belief", only absence of belief, and the remaining two mention "belief" that there is no god but no mention of atheism being itself a religious belief, then you, and those "major instruments locally, at Cth and State levels, as well as abroad", are full of crap.

Traferrence again ha?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Traferrence again ha?

No. Why do you ask?

(non-existent) Heaven forbid that in endeavouring to counter someone's claim of an "established definition", someone might consult, the, y'know, um, thing we use to establish and record established definitions.

Have you anything of substance to offer this forum?

 

[Opine]

No. Why do you ask?

(non-existent) Heaven forbid that in endeavouring to counter someone's claim of an "established definition", someone might consult, the, y'know, um, thing we use to establish and record established definitions.

Have you anything of substance to offer this forum?

Is that how you counter a valid argument?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Is that how you counter a valid argument?

When I see a valid argument from you I'll be happy to address it.

 

[Opine]

When I see a valid argument from you I'll be happy to address it.

No, you won't.

 

[Roylion]

Like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Yep.

Atheism:
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Religion:
1. the belief in a god or in a group of gods
2. an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
3. an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Not sure how 'atheism' fits the definition of 'religion'.

 

[Opine]

...Not sure how 'atheism' fits the definition of 'religion'.

Would it change your approach to arguing your belief if that were the case?

 

[Roylion]

Would it change your approach to arguing your belief if that were the case?

I'm not arguing any belief. I'm asking others making claims to 'truth' to justify said claim/s. Why should I or any others believe their claim to 'truth'?

 

[Opine]

I'm not arguing any belief. I'm asking others making claims to 'truth' to justify said claim/s. Why should I or any others believe their claim to 'truth'?

Well-established social norms and the institutions that facilitate them reasonably afford a starting presumption that theistic belief has positively affected social development. The burden of displacing that presumption should be born by those disputing it, not the other way around as you appear to be suggesting.

There is dismay around the legislatively expanded definition of religious belief for purposes related to the subject with which this thread relates. Nonetheless, theist atheist and nether are considered religious beliefs. Perhaps for good reason.

 

[Roylion]

Well-established social norms and the institutions that facilitate them reasonably afford a starting presumption that theistic belief has positively affected social development.

That is irrelevant to what I am saying. Whether you believe that theistic belief has positively affected social development is a matter of debate.

Once again.

I'm asking others making claims to 'truth' to justify said claim/s. If events in the Bible for example (claims to the actual historicity of a 'global flood') are claimed as 'truth', then the evidence that supports needs to be presented for critical examination.

The burden of displacing that presumption should be born by those disputing it, not the other way around as you appear to be suggesting.

See my bolded comment above.

There is dismay around the legislatively expanded definition of religious belief for purposes related to the subject with which this thread relates. Nonetheless, theist atheist and nether are considered religious beliefs. Perhaps for good reason.

Atheism is NOT a religious belief. Not under any dictionary definition of religion. As I have demonstrated.

 

[Westerberg]

Your initial two statements are inescapably freighted with contradiction. How is it that there is no external evidence for a global flood - even textually - outside of the Bible whilst at the same time exisiting a multiplicity of religious texts detailing events of a global flood from which the biblical authors lifted their alleged ‘story’?

My contention of course is that the Global Flood of Genesis 6 happened and that it is not a literary fabrication nor is it an intertextual reference to any earlier accounts of a global or large-scale local flood.

Of course there is debate. What is it that we would engage in now over our disagreements regarding a global flood?

How do you reconcile such a deeply moronic story with the all knowing all powerful all loving god you believe to exist?

He's supposed to be all powerful right but he had no choice but to exterminate all live on earth because human's became corrupt or something.

Literally any other plan would have been better than that. At least wipe out the humans who deserved it and not all freaking live on the planet. Or how about guiding them back onto the right path somehow? Wouldn't that have been a better redemption story than mass extermination? If he couldn't guide us then he's not all powerful, if he could but wouldn't then he seems more like a psychopath than an all loving god.

We're clearly far worse as a species now then we were back then too, 500 years of genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, colonialism, wars and environmental destruction. Lucky the jews have been hacking off their foreskins to appease god so he doesn't do it again I guess.

 

[Opine]

…
Atheism is NOT a religious belief. Not under any dictionary definition of religion. As I have demonstrated.

According to your bio, you're in Melbourne; therefore, at Vic State level, refer s4 of Equal Opportunity Act 2010 Vic; further reinforced at s3 of Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act 2006 Vic. At Commonwealth level, refer to s5 Religious Discrimination Bill 2019 Cth second exposure draft.

 

[Roylion]

According to your bio, you're in Melbourne; therefore, at Vic State level, refer s4 of Equal Opportunity Act 2010 Vic; further reinforced at s3 of Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act 2006 Vic. At Commonwealth level, refer to s5 Religious Discrimination Bill 2019 Cth second exposure draft.

Under every dictionary definition of religion, atheism is NOT a religious belief.

Atheists have no beliefs in common, no gods of any kind, nothing they worship, no scripture, no shared values, and no dogma. They have no clergy, no schools, and no sacred buildings. The only thing all atheists share is a lack of belief in gods of any kind.

 

[Opine]

Under every dictionary definition of religion, atheism is NOT a religious belief.

Atheists have no beliefs in common, no gods of any kind, nothing they worship, no scripture, no shared values, and no dogma. They have no clergy, no schools, and no sacred buildings. The only thing all atheists share is a lack of belief in gods of any kind.

Yeah ok .

 

[Roylion]

Yeah ok .

I'm still yet to read any logical explanation by you of how atheism is a religious belief. Outline it here in your own words. Don't refer me to documents.

 

[Opine]

I'm still yet to read any logical explanation by you of how atheism.is a religious belief. Outline it here in your own words. Don't refer me to documents.

What do you desire, an explanatory basis for imposing that definition as means of combatting discriminatory conduct? You’ve shown a desire for research I’m sure you can manage it.

 

[Roylion]

What do you desire, an explanatory basis for imposing that definition

It's quite simple really. Answer the following.

How is atheism a religious belief?

 

[Opine]

It's quite simple really. Answer the following.

How is atheism a religious belief?

It's even simpler. It's a posited definition. No further explanation is required.
It's states;
religious belief or activity means:
(a) holding a religious belief; or
(b) engaging in lawful religious activity; or
(c) not holding a religious belief; or
(d) not engaging in, or refusing to engage in, lawful religious activity.

Come on, I owe you no further explanation as to it's purpose than I've already alluded to. None at all.