Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Roylion]

I don’t give a sh*t what you said.

There you go. So you did ask a pointless question.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I don’t believe theists want to convert everyone they encounter into their faith. What is that the atheists actually want? Until reading this thread and others on this site with similar underlying intolerance, I wasnt aware of the depth of division that exists. WTF do anti-theists actually want?

Also, a few more mea culpas in the light of the untold misery that religious institutions have inflicted on innocent children wouldn't go astray.

Child abuse is not the exclusive domain of religious institutions of course, but it's particularly galling given their frequent posturing as moral arbiters. I have great respect for the religious in some aspects, like compassion for the poor and downtrodden, but they can all get ****ed in that regard as far as I'm concerned. Just disgusting.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

And what do you want precisely ?

How about you SBD, what do you want; without the qualifiers and disclaimers?

I made myself perfectly clear.

 

[Opine]

Also, a few more mea culpas in the light of the untold misery that religious institutions have inflicted on innocent children wouldn't go astray.

Child abuse is not the exclusive domain of religious institutions of course, but it's particularly galling given their frequent posturing as moral arbiters. I have great respect for the religious in some aspects, like compassion for the poor and downtrodden, but they can all get f’ed in that regard as far as I'm concerned. Just disgusting.

So what do you want?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I don’t give a sh*t what you said.

Ooh, someone got out of bed on the wrong side.

 

[Opine]

Ooh, someone got out of bed on the wrong side.

No, I’m trying to get to the core of what you really want.

 

[Opine]

I made myself perfectly clear.

How do you propose to achieve it?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

How do you propose to achieve it?

By ranting on BF, like everybody else.

This is the thing. Theists are driven by zeal. The rest of us aren't. We just want them out of our lives, but is it something we're going to form congregations around, and rock along every Sunday and sing songs about how wicked the theists are and how our system is so much better? Nah. We just want then to eff off.

And to show some humility.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

No, I’m trying to get to the core of what you really want.

Well telling someone "I don't give a shit what you said" is a really bad start to achieving that objective.

 

[Opine]

By ranting on BF, like everybody else.

This is the thing. Theists are driven by zeal. The rest of us aren't. We just want them out of our lives, but is it something we're going to form congregations around, and rock along every Sunday and sing songs about how wicked the theists are and how our system is so much better? Nah. We just want then to eff off.

And to show some humility.

This is what I see taking place.
There’s an undercurrent of religiously bias attitudes which has manifested into acts of bias; ridiculing, slurs, belittling jokes. There’s been more than a few calling for economic discrimination, political discrimination , even employment based discrimination on the basis of religious belief FFS.
What’s next? Bias motivated violence?

 

[Opine]

…. We just want then to eff off.

Eff off where?

 

[Rusty Brookes]

This is what I see taking place.
There’s an undercurrent of religiously bias attitudes which has manifested into acts of bias; ridiculing, slurs, belittling jokes. There’s been more than a few calling for economic discrimination, political discrimination , even employment based discrimination on the basis of religious belief FFS.
What’s next? Bias motivated violence?

Sorry but I call BS on that. Where has this political discrimination occurred (whatever that means)? The Prime Minister is a practicing Christian. The only discrimination based on employment I see is the current bill up in parliament where religions are asking for state sanctioned discrimination. It's religions that are arguing to be able to discriminate on the basis of religion - not us secularists.

 

[Opine]

Sorry but I call BS on that. Where has this political discrimination occurred (whatever that means)? The Prime Minister is a practicing Christian. The only discrimination based on employment I see is the current bill up in parliament where religions are asking for state sanctioned discrimination. It's religions that are arguing to be able to discriminate on the basis of religion - not us secularists.

Firstly, I was referring to this site.
Secondly, it’s not surprising AU PM is a practicing Christian, at 2016 census 51% of Australian held religious belief, at 2020 53% according to RoyMorgan. Chances are a PM might hold a religious belief, and Australian law prevents precluding an individual from office on basis of religious belief or lack thereof.
Thirdly USA, Canada, UK all have religious belief protection legislation at federal level, AU promised to do likewise in 1972 and is just now seeking to implement it.
Admittedly you make a good point regarding the need for the current Bill to be amended so as to prohibit consideration of sexual orientation in religious based organisations; that’s just not on.

 

[Opine]

Sorry but I call BS on that. Where has this political discrimination occurred (whatever that means)? The Prime Minister is a practicing Christian. The only discrimination based on employment I see is the current bill up in parliament where religions are asking for state sanctioned discrimination. It's religions that are arguing to be able to discriminate on the basis of religion - not us secularists.

In light of what you’ve said above, what do you want to happen? for religion to be banned? for constitutional change precluding a person of religious belkef from holding public office? for those of religious belief to be deported somewhere? or worse perhaps? WTF do you want?

 

[Rosscoe]

Personally, though I respect individual perception as a perfectly valid reason for one individual to pursue whatever path in life they choose, I consider that religious people saying “what’s inside my head is AMAZING! You really should try it!!” is for anyone else about as compelling as people saying “Oh! Man! I just had the most AMAZING deja vu!!”

There’s not a whole lot for anyone outside the person’s head (ie everyone else) to grab a hold of, is there?

This is the best way I can describe it Gonzalez; consider this verse:


1 Corinthians 10:13 NIV
13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.


When you read the bible; you find out what god considers to be sin and your focus should be on the sins that relate to you personally. To know what the temptation is, you must know what the sin is first.

When you realise what the temptation is, you will get to a point that you will start to notice the way out god provides. This way out; when you notice it at first seems like a coincidence. A book falling; a gust of wind; the sun shining bright; nothing out of the realm of what an Athiest would consider supernatural.

When you see it in connection to what is going on in your life; it is impossible to consider it a coincidence when the multitude of coincidences start to stack up to a point that there is no doubt, that what this verse in the bible says is true. It becomes the strength you need to overcome your sin.

 

[Gethelred]

What I would like is as follows:

- for the religious to be perfectly okay to say, "I don't know the answer, even if I believe that God does."
- for the religious not to try to push back on science when it infringes on their belief system.
- for religious schools to teach adequate sex education.
- for the inconsistencies in their religion to be acknowledged, instead of smoothed over.

And finally, what I want most of all: I want the religions who profess to be peaceful and merciful to practice what they preach, as opposed to dodging their responsibilities to the poor and those in need.

How a church started by the original Socialist wound up becoming the Vatican is mindblowing.

 

[Opine]

What I would like is as follows:

- for the religious to be perfectly okay to say, "I don't know the answer, even if I believe that God does."
- for the religious not to try to push back on science when it infringes on their belief system.
- for religious schools to teach adequate sex education.
- for the inconsistencies in their religion to be acknowledged, instead of smoothed over.

And finally, what I want most of all: I want the religions who profess to be peaceful and merciful to practice what they preach, as opposed to dodging their responsibilities to the poor and those in need.

How a church started by the original Socialist wound up becoming the Vatican is mindblowing.

This

 

[Roylion]

To know what the temptation is, you must know what the sin is first.
It becomes the strength you need to overcome your sin.

I don't sin. Never have.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

This is what I see taking place.
There’s an undercurrent of religiously bias attitudes which has manifested into acts of bias; ridiculing, slurs, belittling jokes. There’s been more than a few calling for economic discrimination, political discrimination , even employment based discrimination on the basis of religious belief FFS.
What’s next? Bias motivated violence?

Ridiculous over-reaction to a pretty tame post from me.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Eff off where?

Out of our lives, as I already said. Comprehension issues?

 

[Opine]

Out of our lives, as I already said. Comprehension issues?

Yes, apologies I’m slow on comprehension uptake. How do you propose to get them out of your lives?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

This is the best way I can describe it Gonzalez; consider this verse:


1 Corinthians 10:13 NIV
13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.


When you read the bible; you find out what god considers to be sin and your focus should be on the sins that relate to you personally. To know what the temptation is, you must know what the sin is first.

When you realise what the temptation is, you will get to a point that you will start to notice the way out god provides. This way out; when you notice it at first seems like a coincidence. A book falling; a gust of wind; the sun shining bright; nothing out of the realm of what an Athiest would consider supernatural.

When you see it in connection to what is going on in your life; it is impossible to consider it a coincidence when the multitude of coincidences start to stack up to a point that there is no doubt, that what this verse in the bible says is true. It becomes the strength you need to overcome your sin.

Thanks Rosscoe, I appreciate you taking the time to pen a lengthy reply, but I can’t say I really understand much of it.

I don’t believe in “god”. Consequently I don’t believe in sin. (I do believe in “temptation” but this is nothing more than the issues of self-control that everyone faces, theist or atheist.)

I’m glad to hear that you consider this thing you call “god” is faithful. You Christians believe it created the entire universe so you’d want to think at the very least it could be faithful.

A lot of what you’re describing as signs/guidance from god I would personally describe as classic confirmation bias, but I’m happy it works for you.

 

[Opine]

What I would like is as follows:

- for the religious to be perfectly okay to say, "I don't know the answer, even if I believe that God does."
- for the religious not to try to push back on science when it infringes on their belief system.
- for religious schools to teach adequate sex education.
- for the inconsistencies in their religion to be acknowledged, instead of smoothed over.

And finally, what I want most of all: I want the religions who profess to be peaceful and merciful to practice what they preach, as opposed to dodging their responsibilities to the poor and those in need.

How a church started by the original Socialist wound up becoming the Vatican is mindblowing.

Boston tiger I hope you don’t mind my including you in this discussion. Gethelred has highlighted some important points in the post above. Surely you concede there’s been some massive failings and double standards in the church?

 

[freo99]

True. But there are many theists that expect the rest of society to live by their rules. I've lived through it. No shops open on Sundays. No football on Good Friday. No KISS records - they're evil. No Dungeons and Dragons - that's Satanic. And so on, and so on.

Now for me that doesn't mean much. But for a gay person trying to get married or a woman that needs an abortion, that means a lot. Now in Australia, we've systematically moved away from religion having a say in how a secular society is run, and we're better off for it IMHO. But that's not the case in many countries around the world.

As for atheists being intolerant? Well I've never seen atheists fill the streets in protest when someone insults Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. In fact, this video proves the exact opposite. NSFW by the way



And I've seen plenty of Christians and Muslims preaching at street corners. Never seen an atheist screaming at passer's by "Be Saved! Read the Origin of Species and don't live forever".

I can only speak for myself when I say I don't give a rats what someone believes. I have religious friends and family - I think they're dead wrong and haven't thought through what they believe in but whatever. I do care how people act though. If you are religious and want to live by those rules - go for it. But don't expect the rest of us to live by those rules. That's where we get our backs up.

I recently signed to be a member of the Noose Temple of Satan - not because I worship Baelzebub or Moloch. It's because they are exposing the hypocrisy of Australian governments allowing chaplains to hold positions in State run schools - only religious people may apply and people identifying as Satanists aren't allowed to apply. Of course it's a big joke but they make a great point.

History and indeed, current events, shows that theocracies are hell on earth. I want to live in a society that is driven by science and logic, not supernatural myth.

Cherry picking hypocrites.
Never known atheists to fill the streets in protest.
Have a look at the 20th century, 100s millions dead + still counting.

When you use an argument against another group, try using against any group you belong to
+ see how it works out.

 

[Opine]

Ridiculous over-reaction to a pretty tame post from me.

I wasn’t referring to you SBD. You may be relentless in your objective, but you’re not abusive.