Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I have been looking at primary schools lately. The Christian school has 3 classes of students while the state school has a composite class with year 1.

People are turning to Christian education in their droves. The Christian schools outnumber the state schools three to one in the area. And Christmas is celebrated at the state school too.

That modern society stuff is media advertising paid for by people with an agenda.

The Enlightenment was “media advertising paid for by people with an agenda”?

LOL you really are clutching at straws.

You, like many religious believers, are in complete denial that the Enlightenment has left religion’s explanation of the origin of the universe in tatters. Come on mate, it’s been centuries.

Tim Dean’s amazing book How We Became Human is anything but “media advertising paid for by people with an agenda”.

Read it and shine some light into your world for once.

Or try Yuval Harari Noah’s extraordinary Sapiens. If you have the ability to think objectively about what he covers, you’ll walk away from it thinking “wow, the religious model of the origins of the world is like kindergarten compared to this!”

A lot of people disparagingly refer to the bible (and the OT in particular) as having been written by a bunch of goat herders. I don’t care for that disparagement, as anyone who reads a bit of anthropology would know that agrarian societies had/have evolved their own highly-appropriate moral precepts in order to best function.

But the fact is, much of Christianity is still living by a set of highly-inapt strictures that are eminently suited to small agrarian communities, but utterly wrong for today’s complex, multi-layered, interconnected world.

And private schools? Don’t get me started on the disgusting, underhanded way the religious lobby has siphoned off public funds for its bastions of privilege in the leafy suburbs. They should hang their heads in shame.

Let alone the fact that religion has not only wormed its way into the secular state school system, it has been downright unethical in its attempts to prevent Ethics being taught in the state system as an alternative to religion.

(Did you know that in NSW, that bastion of morality Fred Nile ensured that state schools could offer Ethics, but they are not allowed to say that they offer Ethics unless a parent asks? Can you believe that? If anyone needs a course of Ethics, it’s Fred Nile and his devious bunch, but I won’t hold me breath.)

 

[Rosscoe]

The Enlightenment was “media advertising paid for by people with an agenda”?

LOL you really are clutching at straws.

You, like many religious believers, are in complete denial that the Enlightenment has left religion’s explanation of the origin of the universe in tatters. Come on mate, it’s been centuries.

Tim Dean’s amazing book How We Became Human is anything but “media advertising paid for by people with an agenda”.

Read it and shine some light into your world for once.

Or try Yuval Harari Noah’s extraordinary Sapiens. If you have the ability to think objectively about what he covers, you’ll walk away from it thinking “wow, the religious model of the origins of the world is like kindergarten compared to this!”

A lot of people disparagingly refer to the bible (and the OT in particular) as having been written by a bunch of goat herders. I don’t care for that disparagement, as anyone who reads a bit of anthropology would know that agrarian societies had/have evolved their own highly-appropriate moral precepts in order to best function.

But the fact is, much of Christianity is still living by a set of highly-inapt strictures that are eminently suited to small agrarian communities, but utterly wrong for today’s complex, multi-layered, interconnected world.

And private schools? Don’t get me started on the disgusting, underhanded way the religious lobby has siphoned off public funds for its bastions of privilege in the leafy suburbs. They should hang their heads in shame.

Let alone the fact that religion has not only wormed its way into the secular state school system, it has been downright unethical in its attempts to prevent Ethics being taught in the state system as an alternative to religion.

(Did you know that in NSW, that bastion of morality Fred Nile ensured that state schools could offer Ethics, but they are not allowed to say that they offer Ethics unless a parent asks? Can you believe that? If anyone needs a course of Ethics, it’s Fred Nile and his devious bunch, but I won’t hold me breath.)

Im sorry, but no one cares about Tim Dean or Yuval Harari; after all what did they ever do for anyone.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Im sorry, but no one cares about Tim Dean or Yuval Harari; after all what did they ever do for anyone.

OK you’re just a joker. Thanks for wasting everyone's time. Post all you want, I won't respond because you've shown us all you're not serious.

What have Tim Dean or Yuval Harari Noah done for anyone? Um, given us a little more priceless understanding into what it is to be human.

Not something you're interested in clearly, so again, sorry I wasted my time engaging with you.

 

[Rosscoe]

OK you’re just a joker. Thanks for wasting everyone's time. Post all you want, I won't respond because you've shown us all you're not serious.

What have Tim Dean or Yuval Harari Noah done for anyone? Um, given us a little more priceless understanding into what it is to be human.

Not something you're interested in clearly, so again, sorry I wasted my time engaging with you.

I have never called you a joker or anything else.

There has been no one in the history of mankind that has changed lives; consistently and dramatically for the past 2000 years than Jesus. It is a fact.

 

[Rosscoe]

We’ll then, it shouldn’t be too difficult to provide the evidence if that’s the case?!

Jesus did not provide a miracle to King Herod when his life depended on it.

You do not get to tell god what he should do. GOD TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO. Humble yourself and you will eventually have all the evidence you need.

 

[Roylion]

GOD TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO.

That 'God' supposedly tells me what to do is only another unsubstantiated claim.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Jesus did not provide a miracle to King Herod when his life depended on it.

You do not get to tell god what he should do. GOD TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO. Humble yourself and you will eventually have all the evidence you need.

This god character you continue to claim exists and now miraculously speak for, on its behalf oddly enough, sounds a lot like many christo-fascists I’ve encountered and observed in my life.
Admit, you’re goose is cooked mate, you’ve lost the plot!

 

[Total Power]

Christianity… it has all the answers .

Like how to treat women and slaves? Or plagiarizing other myths and making it yours? You ramble about Trinity without realsing trinity is a made up concept. If Trinity was that important Jesus would have spoken about it a lot more than a couple of verses which were added much later on.

What do you think of traditions which survived a lot longer than 2,000 years? Like God Krishna or Rama? surely they are frauds right? Hinduism doesn't preach so i guess that rules them out. Hey?

You are fire BT, zero understanding of history, zero understanding of context. How do you think someone would have written about Moses 900 years after his death? they didn't have Ipads back then you know.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

People are turning to Christian education in their droves. The Christian schools outnumber the state schools three to one in the area. And Christmas is celebrated at the state school too.

Care to back up that claim? Looking at data from the ABS - Catholic schools have shown an increase of 1.5% in enrolments over the past five years. Government schools have shown a 5.9% increase. Independent schools have shown the largest increase but that will contain all sorts of schools - not just Christian schools. But as a proxy if we combine Catholic and Independent - the growth is still 4.8%.

In terms of overall numbers, there was an increase of 145,341 enrolments in government schools, 11,555 in Catholic Schools and 51,852 in Independent schools. There is nothing to suggest that people are turning to Christian schools in their droves.

Schools, 2024

Data on government and non-government students, staff and schools

www.abs.gov.au

 

[Opine]

Not true. Atheists are completely willing to change their opinion, they simple ask for evidence.

Most theists are completely unwilling to change their opinion, despite the evidence.

The existence of agnosticism clearly implies proper conclusion is that both sides are open to contemplation and change; unless you’re suggesting all agnostics are ex atheist. My comment related to Roy and BT and Ross.

 

[Opine]

I will tell you why the need arose for 'saviours' starting from OT. (Copy pasting my older post in this thread). I will tell you why and how YWH came into existence and why Moses was a required character. You can then extend this to Jesus (the god).

if you read history, there is a purpose to con people. The hebrew babel is a complete fabrication by a small group of Isrealites who wanted to exalt themselves over everyone else. While they were exiled in Babylon, they discovered all the Sumerian myths of creation, the epics of Gilgamesh where their Noah flood story is copied from. The Legend of Sargon the Great they fabricate part of the Moses story. Sargon s birth story that his mother had a secret pregnancy and could not keep him so she tugged him in a basket safely and he floated down the Euphrates river where a gardner of the king finds him.

The book of lamentations they plagerize from the Laments of Ur and 4 other cities after being conquered or destroyed. Their code of laws and code of rules were taken from king Ur Namme tablets of law and his code of rules similar to the Hammurabi code of laws. None of this existed before they were taken captive to Babylon. It was all fabricated in Babylon and with a covenant that named them god s chosen people. TOTAL fabrication.

Lament for Ur - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was after they returned to Jerusalem that they edited and finalized their colossal creation. They re invented themselves as superior to all others. When they return from Babylon, they find that the yahweist isrealites they had left behind were back to polytheistic worship so they decided to bring back the pantheon of lesser gods making them into a hierarchy of angels and demons. This is the other part of the moses story. When he comes back from mt sinai and finds the people worshipping a cow. Moses breaks the tablets. They just edit n accomodate the pantheon of gods so they would have more appeal to the polytheistic population.

Abrahamic faiths that have a poor understanding of myth in ancient society. Yahweh was merely a nationalistic God, the God of Israel. Adherents to the Abrahamic faiths don't understand that.

Similarly the character of Jesus evolved from Mark to Matthew to John. It wasn't until John (the youngest of all Jesus) that Jesus was fully God, telling people he is God, making miracles life right and center. Very little in Mark (the oldest of gospels) tells us that Jesus is indeed the same guy as John. Why? cause John been rewritten over centuries. In Mark Jesus says : Why you call me Good, only God is good, for this reason. OT states, God cannot be appearing as a Man and no mortal will see 'my face'. Mark, Matthew were on the right lines, till John came along. I will more later on on how Greek translations originally suggested John 10:30 is not what most Christians made it out to be.

I think this seems openly plausible, at least enough to warrant rebuttal by Christians in here who feel compelled to do so.

 

[Roylion]

The existence of agnosticism clearly implies proper conclusion is that both sides are open to contemplation and change. My comment related to Roy and BT and Ross.

Very happy to be convinced of the existence of 'god'. Whatever 'god' is. I can't even get a definition of the term, from those who believe in its' existence. To me that is indicative they don't know what 'god' actually is or what they mean by the term.

I generally define 'god' in two ways:

- an immortal supernatural being or deity that is the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

or alternatively...

- any supernatural being (deity), worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force.

Will we go with the above? Or something else?

If with the above definition, convince me. Offer me evidence to put its existence beyond doubt. Something more than blind faith.

 

[Opine]

Very happy to be convinced of the existence of 'god'. Whatever 'god' is. I can't even get a definition of the term, from those who believe in its' existence. To me that is indicative they don't know what 'god' actually is or what they mean by the term.

I generally define 'god' in two ways:

- an immortal supernatural being or deity that is the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

or alternatively...

- any supernatural being (deity), worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force.

Will we go with the above? Or something else?

If with the above definition, convince me. Offer me evidence to put its existence beyond doubt. Something more than blind faith.

Fair enough.

 

[Rosscoe]

That 'God' supposedly tells me what to do is only another unsubstantiated claim.

It can be found in any Bible.

 

[Rosscoe]

This god character you continue to claim exists and now miraculously speak for, on its behalf oddly enough, sounds a lot like many christo-fascists I’ve encountered and observed in my life.
Admit, you’re goose is cooked mate, you’ve lost the plot!

I sound like a Christo-Facist; my goose is cooked and I have lost the plot.

Big words little substance.

 

[Rosscoe]

Care to back up that claim? Looking at data from the ABS - Catholic schools have shown an increase of 1.5% in enrolments over the past five years. Government schools have shown a 5.9% increase. Independent schools have shown the largest increase but that will contain all sorts of schools - not just Christian schools. But as a proxy if we combine Catholic and Independent - the growth is still 4.8%.

In terms of overall numbers, there was an increase of 145,341 enrolments in government schools, 11,555 in Catholic Schools and 51,852 in Independent schools. There is nothing to suggest that people are turning to Christian schools in their droves.

Schools, 2024

Data on government and non-government students, staff and schools

www.abs.gov.au

I was clearly speaking about my area though.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The existence of agnosticism clearly implies proper conclusion is that both sides are open to contemplation and change; unless you’re suggesting all agnostics are ex atheist. My comment related to Roy and BT and Ross.

The existence of agnosticism clearly implies the existence of agnosticism; nothing more.

 

[Roylion]

It can be found in any Bible.

Why should I take any notice of anything found in the Bible?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why should I take any notice of anything found in the Bible?

Christians using the bible to prove what's in the bible. Love it.

 

[Rosscoe]

Why should I take any notice of anything found in the Bible?

It is the only way of knowing god for those who are seeking the truth.

 

[Roylion]

It is the only way of knowing god for those who are seeking the truth.

The only way? How do you know this?

The Quran is not a way of knowing 'god'? The Tanakh and The Talmud for Jews? The Avesta for Zoroastrians?

 

[Rosscoe]

The only way? How do you know this?

The Quran is not a way of knowing 'god'? The Tanakh and The Talmud for Jews? The Avesta for Zoroastrians?

You specifically asked about the Bible; I cannot speak for the Quran, Tanakh, Talmud or the Avesta. I own a Tanakh for reference.

 

[Roylion]

You specifically asked about the Bible;

And then you claimed it was the "only way" to God. How do you know this?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The only way? How do you know this?

The Quran is not a way of knowing 'god'? The Tanakh and The Talmud for Jews? The Avesta for Zoroastrians?

The attitude of many religious believers to their religion of choice (or, more accurately in 99% of cases, the religion they grew up with) is not dissimilar to classical music buffs.

Ask a CMB why do they like classical music, and surprisingly often you’ll get the reply “It’s the greatest music in the world!”

Ask them “yes, but what do you like about it?” and they'll simply repeat "It's the greatest music in the world!" as if that answers the question, to the point where you start to conclude that what they like about classical music in fact has nothing to do with the music. It is that they think it's the best. I see similar thinking with religious believers when asked to explain their religion as compared to other religions.

 

[Rosscoe]

And then you claimed it was the "only way" to God. How do you know this?

Because it is his word.