Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Frank Bunn]

A lot of things in morality are evolutionary traits that comes from natural selection. These parts of morality are objective. So if you acknowledge natural selection theory, an all powerful being can be immoral by simply violating these objective rules, possibly including no killing on innocents, no hurting of children, and no flooding the whole world. We know genocide, murder rape is wrong from a survival and evolutionary perspective. Outside of that I do not believe objective morality exists independent of humans. Look in the nature, it's brutal, look at the universe, a whole galaxy got gobbled up by a black hole. It's brutal.

Nietzsche writes on this rather extensively in "Beyond Good and Evil" and "On the Genealogy of Morals". Morality exists only because of humans. It does not objectively exist. Morals and values are created by the herd or by a small number of individuals (not having to do with their political power at all) and thus these values serve the good of the herd or affirm life. He investigates values like "love thy neighbor as thyself". If you hated your neighbor, wouldn't it be great if you could convince him to love you, instead of dismiss you or not even recognize you?

"God is dead and we have killed him" is often a misunderstood quote.

Over the years human societies have included so many views and practices that it is hard to argue against morality just being subjective and a product of evolution. You don't need to go back very far to see cannibalism, infanticide, slavery, pederasty, child brides, torture, executions for heresy or witchcraft, corporal punishment of children. They would all be justified by the best thinkers of the day. Just to veer slightly back on track, religion of almost any variety, has been used to justify all these behaviours.

But then again, is human society progressing, in what Richard Dawkins calls a 'moral zeitgeist'? Are humans more moral than we used to be? Or are we just finding new subjective positions and rationalising them so we think we are awesome? Evolution can't work so fast as to keep up with social trends. And no one knows how the interaction of human nature and the internet will play out. Human nature is dictated by our biology but morality could operate on another level that becomes prevalent.

Robert Pirsig is an interesting read. He rejects the traditional Western dualistic philosophy that separates subjects and objects, mind and matter. He proposes there is a hierarchy of static patterns - inorganic, biological, social, and intellectual, in ascending order of "morality". So there is objectivity in morality, if you shift your thinking. I wouldn't try to do justice to his argument but he goes back to the basics of the ancient Greeks before taking it further. His book, Lila An Inquiry into Morals is worth a look.

 

[Total Power]

Over the years human societies have included so many views and practices that it is hard to argue against morality just being subjective and a product of evolution. You don't need to go back very far to see cannibalism, infanticide, slavery, pederasty, child brides, torture, executions for heresy or witchcraft, corporal punishment of children. They would all be justified by the best thinkers of the day. Just to veer slightly back on track, religion of almost any variety, has been used to justify all these behaviours.

But then again, is human society progressing, in what Richard Dawkins calls a 'moral zeitgeist'? Are humans more moral than we used to be? Or are we just finding new subjective positions and rationalising them so we think we are awesome? Evolution can't work so fast as to keep up with social trends. And no one knows how the interaction of human nature and the internet will play out. Human nature is dictated by our biology but morality could operate on another level that becomes prevalent.

Robert Pirsig is an interesting read. He rejects the traditional Western dualistic philosophy that separates subjects and objects, mind and matter. He proposes there is a hierarchy of static patterns - inorganic, biological, social, and intellectual, in ascending order of "morality". So there is objectivity in morality, if you shift your thinking. I wouldn't try to do justice to his argument but he goes back to the basics of the ancient Greeks before taking it further. His book, Lila An Inquiry into Morals is worth a look.

Interesting thoughts about rationalisation. This is a study in the field of moral foundations theory.

I feel like most of the comments I've seen from Christians in this thread don't get that, and are instead assuming that when it says "moral compass" it means something like "being a good person". It doesn't; that sort of value judgement isn't being made by the researchers who has looked into 'rationalisation'.

The theory holds that rather than being motivated by rationalism, human moral reasoning generally stems from underlying emotional/moral beliefs they refer to as moral foundations. They identify 5 or 6 moral foundations: Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, Sanctity/Degradation, and Liberty/Oppression. Some omit Liberty/Oppression, Jonathon Haidt includes it in his analysis of American politics through this lens in The Righteous Mind. The theory holds that level of identification with each of these foundations governs responses to issues, with reason coming in on the back end to justify the decision.

I think equality and inclusiveness is what we strive for as humans. I think the group cohesion part is key. Religion creates group cohesion by creating an 'in' and 'out' group. Religion inherently demands adherents follow a set of rules in order to demarcate the boundaries of its in group, while also defining those that are outside the group of the faithful. This is little more than tribalism defined by belief group rather than racial or ethnic group. Religious groups typically use emotional manipulation and "morality" to constrain the people within them. Moral notions of conformity also lead to moral notions surrounding cohesion. So ideas like "we are a family and that is crucial" are a moral good. From this premise, even when the family is abusive to their children, the idea of cutting off the family is seen as amoral.

Its basically part of our most primitive instincts and imprinted in our genetic memory to believe that living in a cohesive group is good for the human race. And it's part of this instinct to isolate those who endanger group cohesion. The simple reason why so many people love religion and also for most wars on earth. They will literally do anything to spread their religion.

Sometimes this gives me the impression that humanity is still closer to being an ape than to that what we idolize as human. Which is why i do not believe in an interventionist creation hypothesis.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

But god saw what was going on too, right?

Aren't they both complicit and equally guilty?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Confirmation that Jesus' Dad is fcuking this country

 

[Total Power]

Rapture can't come soon enough.

 

[Evolved1]

Confirmation that Jesus' Dad is fcuking this country

View attachment 1192780

No wonder our vaccine response has been diabolical. Our PM has been waiting for instructions from a zombie who's been dead for 2000 years.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Houston, we have a problem.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Christian, are you concerned that the real Jesus was as ugly as a welder's bench, and was into rebellious politics, and he was conceived by Joseph the carpenter?
Is Joseph therefore the father of God or is Joseph actually God ?
According to scientists, immaculate conception is impossible so therefore Mary was far from being a virgin.
She would have sex multiple times with Joseph as was the custom of the time between spouses.

 

[western royboy]

Christian, are you concerned that the real Jesus was as ugly as a welder's bench, and was into rebellious politics, and he was conceived by Joseph the carpenter?
Is Joseph therefore the father of God or is Joseph actually God ?
According to scientists, immaculate conception is impossible so therefore Mary was far from being a virgin.
She would have sex multiple times with Joseph as was the custom of the time between spouses.

View attachment 1199889

Science and Religon are not congruent bed fellows

 

[Total Power]

I love the fact how Jesus is portrayed as a good looking white male with blue eyes. Not a made up s**t at all to show how 'godly' he was.

 

[Cooldude]

I love the fact how Jesus is portrayed as a good looking white male with blue eyes. Not a made up sh*t at all to show how 'godly' he was.

Incredibly poor Middle Eastern man is white with clean white clothes and an expensive red scarf, checks out

 

[Ghost Patrol]

They even pronounce his name wrong in English. Proper pronunciation, written phonetically in English is closer to Hesus

 

[western royboy]

They even pronounce his name wrong in English. Proper pronunciation, written phonetically in English is closer to Hesus

I thought it was Yeshua but who cares - I know the bloke lived and died a horrible death but the before and after is 100% unadulterated bull s**t created by people with vested interests - similar to a failed sci fi writer who worked out there was more money in creating a religion as opposed to turning out s**t novels

 

[Total Power]

I thought it was Yeshua but who cares - I know the bloke lived and died a horrible death but the before and after is 100% unadulterated bull sh*t created by people with vested interests - similar to a failed sci fi writer who worked out there was more money in creating a religion as opposed to turning out sh*t novels

Jesus did exist but the supernatural and godly claims about him are made up. Nothing was mentioned about Jesus being God and saviour and resurraction by Jospehus or Tacitus. If Jesus was such a big deal how come no one mentioned anything about God on earth? We have evidence of Buddha, we have evidence of Mohammed. How? people have written about them, during that time period and Buddha was 500 years before Christ.

You can see how many of Jesus' quotes were taken from Confucius, Buddha and other pagan religions. You can see how the story of Adam and Eve was lifted from the myth of Gilgamesh. It's quite evident that for this character in the NT to exist Christians made up a lot of **** , just like the prophecies in OT .. Reverse engineer when in doubt.

 

[Pie eyed]

They even pronounce his name wrong in English. Proper pronunciation, written phonetically in English is closer to Hesus

Actually YAHWEH.
Sounds too much like a chinese phone manufacturer maybe.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Actually YAHWEH.
Sounds too much like a chinese phone manufacturer maybe.

Or what a participant might say when playing a game of 'reverse cowboy'

 

[darcytiger]

Christian, are you concerned that the real Jesus was as ugly as a welder's bench, and was into rebellious politics, and he was conceived by Joseph the carpenter?
Is Joseph therefore the father of God or is Joseph actually God ?
According to scientists, immaculate conception is impossible so therefore Mary was far from being a virgin.
She would have sex multiple times with Joseph as was the custom of the time between spouses.

View attachment 1199889

Mary was raped by a Roman guard. Too ashamed to say anything

 

[darcytiger]

Still waiting for my reply…

For the record, got no reply from School Principal, Parish Priest or The Pope.

 

[Total Power]

Good on ya for standing up to bullshit.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

View attachment 1201157
Still waiting for my reply…

For the record, got no reply from School Principal, Parish Priest or The Pope.

There is some things to do if you really want to such as de-baptizing.

Debaptism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Pie eyed]

Mary was raped by a Roman guard. Too ashamed to say anything

I think you are "para-remembering" the Life of Brian.

 

[darcytiger]

I think you are "para-remembering" the Life of Brian.

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Who knows if its this bloke, though its infinitely more believable than everyone's answer for everything they can't explain for the last 5000 years - 'God did it'

 

[darcytiger]

I’d even believe the chick in the civil war who reckons she got pregnant when old mate in front of her got shot in the balls and the bullet passed through him and lodged in her uterus. About 10,000 times as believeable as immaculate conception

 

[Evolved1]

View attachment 1201157
Still waiting for my reply…

For the record, got no reply from School Principal, Parish Priest or The Pope.

Blaspheming the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin. That's one way of closing the door on the church once and for all.

I don't know what's involved in the process.

 

[darcytiger]

Blaspheming the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin. That's one way of closing the door on the church once and for all.

I don't know what's involved in the process.

I called the diocese today, this thread gave me the inspo to get back onto this. I got given the number of a woman to call tomorrow (she doesn’t work Mondays, must be knackered from all the praying on Sunday).

Will report how I go