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Aristotle Pickett

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I think the Jews were racist during the time of Jesus. You could argue that is still the case.i don’t know.
I think you can level that claim against many people who claim that they are one thing or another.
Your third point is very valid. But why stop there. I know of many people who were abused at school because they were different. People beaten by teachers and other students because they were gay, they were from poor families, were not very good at education or were ugly. Please show us the direction we need to take here.
You're deflecting a bit.
My question is why do Christians mostly not have Christian values?
And what would Jesus have to say to modern Christians?
It looks like he would come in and smash everything in the market like he did when he lost it with the money lenders or whatever they were.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
OK, here’s a slightly different tack (religion AND politics - what could possibly go worng? LOL)

Anyone reading Australian history is struck by the degree to which it was defined by sectarianism - the ongoing disagreements between Roman Catholics and Protestants.

Suspicion and mistrust permeated every level of Australian society, and had a huge influence on the course of events and hence the sort of society in which we dwell today.

Over time the schism diminished. In terms of politics, one of the more remarkable outcomes was the breakdown of the traditional Labor = Roman Catholic, Conservative = Protestant division, to the point that the Coalition is now home to Catholics to a degree unimaginable only a generation or two ago.

But it never went away entirely. Massive differences still persist, and it has been observed that the Coalition’s dominance federally is very much dependent on not seeing any hint of a return to the old days of division.

But now, with the federal government already led by a fundamentalist Protestant, it’s looking most likely that the biggest state economy is to be led by a fundamentalist Roman Catholic.

Fundamentalists by definition are not inclined to seeing other points of view.

Given the way COVID has brought back to the surface all sorts of disputes between the state and federal worlds, what will this mean for the nation, for NSW, and for the current quite extraordinary unity that the Coalition has enjoyed?

Will we see a return of sectarianism? (It’s not like there was ever some great burying of the hatchet. There’s been an eerie collective silence over this aspect of our past, like it never happened, but it’s there in plain view for anyone who does the most cursory historical enquiry and presumably, as we’ve seen with the federal-state divisions, is still lurking just below the surface.)

Will Morrison’s instincts as a political operator, his highly flexible ethics, simply absorb Perrotet’s fundamentalist Catholicism without missing a beat?
 
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Baltimore Jack

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You're deflecting a bit.
My question is why do Christians mostly not have Christian values?
And what would Jesus have to say to modern Christians?
It looks like he would come in and smash everything in the market like he did when he lost it with the money lenders or whatever they were.
I'd argue they do have christian values

Their rule book is full of slaughter, racism, infanticide, incest, rape and slavery

Sounds like modern day christians to me
 

Boston tiger

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OK, here’s a slightly different tack (religion AND politics - what could possibly go worng? LOL)

Anyone reading Australian history is struck by the degree to which it was defined by sectarianism - the ongoing disagreements between Roman Catholics and Protestants.

Suspicion and mistrust permeated every level of Australian society, and had a huge influence on the course of events and hence the sort of society in which we dwell today.

Over time the schism diminished. In terms of politics, one of the more remarkable outcomes was the breakdown of the traditional Labor = Roman Catholic, Conservative = Protestant division, to the point that the Coalition is now home to Catholics to a degree unimaginable only a generation or two ago.

But it never went away entirely. Massive differences still persist, and it has been observed that the Coalition’s dominance federally is very much dependent on not seeing any hint of a return to the old days of division.

But now, with the federal government already led by a fundamentalist Protestant, it’s looking most likely that the biggest state economy is to be led by a fundamentalist Roman Catholic.

Fundamentalists by definition are not inclined to seeing other points of view.

Given the way COVID has brought back to the surface all sorts of disputes between the state and federal worlds, what will this mean for the nation, for NSW, and for the current quite extraordinary unity that the Coalition has enjoyed?

Will we see a return of sectarianism? (It’s not like there was ever some great burying of the hatchet. There’s been an eerie collective silence over this aspect of our past, like it never happened, but it’s there in plain view for anyone who does the most cursory historical enquiry and presumably, as we’ve seen with the federal-state divisions, is still lurking just below the surface.)

Will Morrison’s instincts as a political operator, his highly flexible ethics, simply absorb Perrotet’s fundamentalist Catholicism without missing a beat?
What about fundamentalist Australians? Those that follow the rules of the constitution and those laid down by parliament or how ever it works .
Im definitely a fundamentalist driver and tax filler outer.

The question is . Has fundamentalist a term to describe those that read the Bible literalistic-ally been high jacked here for bias purposes and to the impress the proles. ?

Media ..the opium of the masses.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
What about fundamentalist Australians? Those that follow the rules of the constitution and those laid down by parliament or how ever it works .
Im definitely a fundamentalist driver and tax filler outer.

The question is . Has fundamentalist a term to describe those that read the Bible literalistic-ally been high jacked here for bias purposes and to the impress the proles. ?

Media ..the opium of the masses.
Not quite sure of your point, but do you agree that sectarianism is a strong thread throughout Australia's history? And we can discuss the precise definition of fundamentalist of course, but would you agree that, given Australia's deep history of sectarianism, there is at least the potential for conflict between two political leaders who each subscribe to religious beliefs that - as part of those very beliefs - insist that theirs is the only correct belief?

Or will political opportunism/expediency trump deeply held religious beliefs? I don't know much about Perrottet yet, but the one thing I can say about Morrison is that no-one knows WTF he truly believes in beyond the pursuit of power.
 

Total Power

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Some things never change.



The head of an independent commission investigating child sexual abuse in the French Catholic church has said about 3,000 paedophiles have operated inside the institution since 1950.

Days before publication of its report, Jean-Marc Sauvé said the commission’s investigations had uncovered between 2,900 and 3,200 paedophile priests or other church members, adding that this was “a minimum estimate”.
 

western royboy

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Some things never change.



The head of an independent commission investigating child sexual abuse in the French Catholic church has said about 3,000 paedophiles have operated inside the institution since 1950.

Days before publication of its report, Jean-Marc Sauvé said the commission’s investigations had uncovered between 2,900 and 3,200 paedophile priests or other church members, adding that this was “a minimum estimate”.
Sadly this is not new “news” - what is increasingly frustrating for someone in my position is that no one is prepared to address the 🐘 in the room - the priesthood is virtually all gay. It’s not new, but it’s never discussed in the open - not for one second am I suggesting that there is a link between being gay and Paedophilia - however within this cohort there is definitely a section that actively “recruit” Paedophiles.

The stupid fools can’t understand why they can’t get people to join the Priesthood…FFS it’s not that hard to work out why
 

indoistriku

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I have a Christian question (actually, for any religious believers, if they haunt this thread)

What is the rationale behind the emphasis on prophecy?

So what is it? The New Testament is full of claims of fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and my impression is it is a big part of Christianity’s case, but is a “fulfilled” prophecy really that big a deal?
Christian prophecy, as you've noted, is largely a past event, or is already fulfilled (with a few obvious exceptions, like the prophecy of Christ's second coming). The emphasis in the O.T., from a Christian exegetical standpoint, was always on Christ's incarnation, His death on the cross, and His resurrection - the clear focal point of all Christian theology. As such, prophecy has not historically been mesial in the writings of Anno Domini Christians. Again - this is because of the wonderful work of systematic theology in identifying Christ as the fulfillment of O.T.'s prophecy. I am under no illusions that there are still Christians who read the Bible wrongly (read: differently than my church body) and place an extremely focal emphasis on 'unfulfilled' prophecy, which, for them, usually pertains to the end-times, but these Christians (and I don't deny they are Christians) are clinging to an anachronistic doctrine which is largely unknown to the historical systematic theology of the church up until (at least) the 17th century.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
Christian prophecy, as you've noted, is largely a past event, or is already fulfilled (with a few obvious exceptions, like the prophecy of Christ's second coming). The emphasis in the O.T., from a Christian exegetical standpoint, was always on Christ's incarnation, His death on the cross, and His resurrection - the clear focal point of all Christian theology. As such, prophecy has not historically been mesial in the writings of Anno Domini Christians. Again - this is because of the wonderful work of systematic theology in identifying Christ as the fulfillment of O.T.'s prophecy. I am under no illusions that there are still Christians who read the Bible wrongly (read: differently than my church body) and place an extremely focal emphasis on 'unfulfilled' prophecy, which, for them, usually pertains to the end-times, but these Christians (and I don't deny they are Christians) are clinging to an anachronistic doctrine which is largely unknown to the historical systematic theology of the church up until (at least) the 17th century.
So, in a nutshell (and I appreciate this may not be your area of specialty), the Jews are a pretty high-profile group (not just high-profile, but elemental to Christianity) who did not feel that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

So there clearly is the possibility to look at the prophecies as they stood (and yes, I have already admitted I think the whole concept of prophesying is a load of hoodoo) and come to the considered conclusion that they were not fulfilled. I mean, the Jews have produced some pretty heavy hitters in the intellectual stakes. What are the main sticking points?
 

western royboy

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So, in a nutshell (and I appreciate this may not be your area of specialty), the Jews are a pretty high-profile group (not just high-profile, but elemental to Christianity) who did not feel that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

So there clearly is the possibility to look at the prophecies as they stood (and yes, I have already admitted I think the whole concept of prophesying is a load of hoodoo) and come to the considered conclusion that they were not fulfilled. I mean, the Jews have produced some pretty heavy hitters in the intellectual stakes. What are the main sticking points?
Who honestly gives a sh*t - it’s all a heap of sh*t - 100% pure
 

Boston tiger

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Not quite sure of your point, but do you agree that sectarianism is a strong thread throughout Australia's history? And we can discuss the precise definition of fundamentalist of course, but would you agree that, given Australia's deep history of sectarianism, there is at least the potential for conflict between two political leaders who each subscribe to religious beliefs that - as part of those very beliefs - insist that theirs is the only correct belief?

Or will political opportunism/expediency trump deeply held religious beliefs? I don't know much about Perrottet yet, but the one thing I can say about Morrison is that no-one knows WTF he truly believes in beyond the pursuit of power.
You probably need Cromwell , potato famine and a mass migration in that conversation.
 

Boston tiger

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So, in a nutshell (and I appreciate this may not be your area of specialty), the Jews are a pretty high-profile group (not just high-profile, but elemental to Christianity) who did not feel that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

So there clearly is the possibility to look at the prophecies as they stood (and yes, I have already admitted I think the whole concept of prophesying is a load of hoodoo) and come to the considered conclusion that they were not fulfilled. I mean, the Jews have produced some pretty heavy hitters in the intellectual stakes. What are the main sticking points?
Didn’t help that Jesus went around sticking it up the pharisees and sadducees.
 

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indoistriku

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So, in a nutshell (and I appreciate this may not be your area of specialty), the Jews are a pretty high-profile group (not just high-profile, but elemental to Christianity) who did not feel that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

So there clearly is the possibility to look at the prophecies as they stood (and yes, I have already admitted I think the whole concept of prophesying is a load of hoodoo) and come to the considered conclusion that they were not fulfilled. I mean, the Jews have produced some pretty heavy hitters in the intellectual stakes. What are the main sticking points?
That is as I understand it, too. Christians, however, (at least many of them) wouldn’t claim that we worship the same God as Jews. And we’d claim the O.T. ‘Jews’ as Christians, even if their doctrinal understanding was severely lacking due to their historical timing on the Earth. As I have heard it, many of the Jewish population at Christ’s time were seeking a political revolutionary who would ‘save’ them from the oppressive grip of the Roman state, not God on Earth. Which would be why several of the high profile sects at the time (Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.) were deeply offended when they perceived Christ to claim the He is God incarnate. But, I’m now wading into intellectual waters in which I can’t hold my own. I can’t verify either the historical or theological veracity of those theories.
 
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indoistriku

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Who honestly gives a sh*t - it’s all a heap of sh*t - 100% pure
No, it really isn’t. SBG appears to be talking, at the very least, from an historical standpoint. Obviously Jews and Christians are historical groups which have significantly impacted the course of history, for better or worse. Just because something pertains to religion, it doesn’t make it uninteresting or untrue, even if you’re only interested in a dispassionate third party analysis of the groups.
 

western royboy

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No, it really isn’t. SBG appears to be talking, at the very least, from an historical standpoint. Obviously Jews and Christians are historical groups which have significantly impacted the course of history, for better or worse. Just because something pertains to religion, it doesn’t make it uninteresting or untrue, even if you’re only interested in a dispassionate third party analysis of the groups.
Yeah it is - like all religions - absolute ******* bollocks
 

Gethelred

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That is as I understand it, too. Christians, however, (at least many of them) wouldn’t claim that we worship the same God as Jews. And we’d claim the O.T. ‘Jews’ as Christians, even if their doctrinal understanding was severely lacking due to their historical timing on the Earth. As I have heard it, many of the Jewish population at Christ’s time were seeking a political revolutionary who would ‘save’ them from the oppressive grip of the Roman state, not God on Earth. Which would be why several of the high profile sects at the time (Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.) we’re deeply offended when they perceived Christ to claim the He is God incarnate. But, I’m now wading into intellectual waters in which I can’t hold my own. I can’t verify either the historical or theological veracity of those theories.
If you think about it, it makes sense that's what they'd be looking for.

The last time they begged for a saviour (biblically speaking) they got Moses, who wrecked the sh*t out of the Pharaoh then proceeded to lead them through an ocean and gave the leadership of their tribe to Aaron and Joshua, who Harlem Globetrottered their way through Canaan. They begged for a king, and got David, a man who found his claim to fame by slaying a half giant with a projectile weapon.

Given their status as an oppressed people at the time, is it any wonder that they longed for another person to come along and emancipate them in a glorious crusade?
 

indoistriku

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If you think about it, it makes sense that's what they'd be looking for.

The last time they begged for a saviour (biblically speaking) they got Moses, who wrecked the sh*t out of the Pharaoh then proceeded to lead them through an ocean and gave the leadership of their tribe to Aaron and Joshua, who Harlem Globetrottered their way through Canaan. They begged for a king, and got David, a man who found his claim to fame by slaying a half giant with a projectile weapon.

Given their status as an oppressed people at the time, is it any wonder that they longed for another person to come along and emancipate them in a glorious crusade?
That's a very good point. Of course, a Christian would argue that David, Moses, Joshua, etc., were Christ-types, whose stories were foreshadowing the real Saviour to come, despite their significant feats. That is easy for me to say, however, with hindsight and 2000 years of theological tradition which tells me so. For a Jew at the time, especially one awaiting the 'Son of David', I can totally see why many held those beliefs, and perhaps still do. I don't know much about what modern Judaism teaches on this matter.
 

Boston tiger

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So, in a nutshell (and I appreciate this may not be your area of specialty), the Jews are a pretty high-profile group (not just high-profile, but elemental to Christianity) who did not feel that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies.

So there clearly is the possibility to look at the prophecies as they stood (and yes, I have already admitted I think the whole concept of prophesying is a load of hoodoo) and come to the considered conclusion that they were not fulfilled. I mean, the Jews have produced some pretty heavy hitters in the intellectual stakes. What are the main sticking points?
I don’t know if the Jews even have a hierarchical definite authority to be able to make decisions for all Jews to mandate that Jesus/ anybody is the messiah.
If your authority comes from the Torah and God then it’s going to be tricky call to make I would think.

At the time when it all was happening I guess some Jews followed Jesus and saw him as the Messiah those Jews that didn’t have that much to do with him or didn’t think he was the Messiah .. didn’t. I don’t know really who he needed to impress back in those times to be officially crowned the Messiah.

I really am guessing as I know know nada about the Jewish set up.
 

SBD Gonzalez

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Kidding, right?
I don’t know if the Jews even have a hierarchical definite authority to be able to make decisions for all Jews to mandate that Jesus/ anybody is the messiah.
If your authority comes from the Torah and God then it’s going to be tricky call to make I would think.

At the time when it all was happening I guess some Jews followed Jesus and saw him as the Messiah those Jews that didn’t have that much to do with him or didn’t think he was the Messiah .. didn’t. I don’t know really who he needed to impress back in those times to be officially crowned the Messiah.

I really am guessing as I know know nada about the Jewish set up.
Yep same here. I know plenty of Jewish folk but we never talk about religion.
 

Evolved1

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If you think about it, it makes sense that's what they'd be looking for.

The last time they begged for a saviour (biblically speaking) they got Moses, who wrecked the sh*t out of the Pharaoh then proceeded to lead them through an ocean and gave the leadership of their tribe to Aaron and Joshua, who Harlem Globetrottered their way through Canaan. They begged for a king, and got David, a man who found his claim to fame by slaying a half giant with a projectile weapon.

Given their status as an oppressed people at the time, is it any wonder that they longed for another person to come along and emancipate them in a glorious crusade?
Christians expect and welcome those feats from Jesus in the end times. The book of Revelations is bloody.
 

Gethelred

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The book of Revelations is awesome.
I repeat: I want a death metal album version, or the people who did the Animatrix to do a depiction of it in the style of Twisted Metal with a soundtrack by one of the modern metal bands.

There's not nearly enough crazy sh*t in the world yet.
 

Evolved1

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I repeat: I want a death metal album version, or the people who did the Animatrix to do a depiction of it in the style of Twisted Metal with a soundtrack by one of the modern metal bands.

There's not nearly enough crazy sh*t in the world yet.
sh*t gets real in 2022 when Essendon win the premiership.
 

Vdubs

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Do you think Christians are enthralled about spending all their time with like-minded forgiven sinners here on earth? Some actually are.
Most of my friends are unforgiven sinners.
But the important big picture that continuously escapes recognition here and everywhere is the person of Jesus Christ, and what He means to this world, ant to mankind. That is who we aim to spend eternity with.
 

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