Politics Aussie Fascists and Nazis

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medusala

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1). They were violently hostile to all center-left and far-left political parties for their entire existence as a party.
Mensheviks vs Bolsheviks. The left has a long tradition of splitting.

2). They formed coalitions with the traditional right in both electoral politics (the colation government that made Hitler Chancellor) and in bureaucratic politics (their uneasy detente with the German army, which becomes more of a co-option of the army as time goes on.
Uneasy detante. They were viewed with large suspicion by the right and Protestants given they were nearly all Catholic. See also Canaris and the like.

3). They were violently nationalist, and anti-internationalist , compared to the internationalism of the contemporary left.
So what? On that basis Pol Pot, Shining Path etc etc were right wing.

4) As the 30's wear on, they form alliances with other far right governments.
yeah like the Soviet Union!


5) They oppose class struggle, a central tenet of Marxists, Democratic and Bolshevik alike.

His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.

Yet privately, and perhaps even publicly, he conceded that National Socialism was based on Marx. On reflection, it makes consistent sense. The basis of a dogma is not the dogma, much as the foundation of a building is not the building, and in numerous ways National Socialism was based on Marxism.


His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.
 

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medusala

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Even full fact have got this right, meds it's time to catch up old chap.
Full Fact rarely get anything right. They are hardly worthy of respect.

You guys reckon you're the first to educate Meds on this stuff? He's not a person capable of learning new information that challenges his world view, he's a parrot who can type a half dozen unsupported opinions.
I'm tipping you have read two thirds of stuff all books on the subject.
 

Total Power

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Mensheviks vs Bolsheviks. The left has a long tradition of splitting.



Uneasy detante. They were viewed with large suspicion by the right and Protestants given they were nearly all Catholic. See also Canaris and the like.



So what? On that basis Pol Pot, Shining Path etc etc were right wing.



yeah like the Soviet Union!





His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.

Yet privately, and perhaps even publicly, he conceded that National Socialism was based on Marx. On reflection, it makes consistent sense. The basis of a dogma is not the dogma, much as the foundation of a building is not the building, and in numerous ways National Socialism was based on Marxism.


His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.
Ian Kershaw vs George Watson? Seriously?

In the most basic terms socialism is the belief that society shouldn't have any hierarchies. People are all atleast naturally equal, nothing makes one person worth more than the other, not his noble heritage, his fathers wealth or anything else. Any society that has some people on the top and a few on the bottom is therefore an unfair society.

Fascism is kinda the opposite. Some people are naturally better than others, therefore it is best if the good people get to the top society, while the worse people fall to the bottom. Infact this is good for everybody they argue, because a society of strong people led by weak ones is bad for the entire society. So fascist want to reinforce hierarchies and believe them to be good, and the ultimate hierarchy is the nation, with the leader on top and people in the bottom. Nazism and Hitler expanded on this by adding race as another hierarchy.

Hitler despised socialists and communists, even labeling them as a seperate race that needed to be wiped out. But there are two reasons one might mistake fascism and nazism for socialism. The founder of fascism, Mussolini was initially a socialist who eventually got fed up with socialists and created fascism so some might think fascism is an offshoot of socialism but it really isn't. The other reason is that Hitler, ever the shrewd politician, labeled his ideology national socialism and incorporated some socialist ideas early on to attract left wing extremists to his party. These extremists formed the basis for the SA, the military arm of his party. Once he came into power though he quickly got rid of the SA and never really enacted any real socialist policies.

Hitlers own quote: " Our adopted term Socialist has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism"

Daily express 1930.

 
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RICHOLEGEND12

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But the Marxists embraced Hitler.

"A feature of the election was that former Marxists cast a far heavier vote for Chancellor Hitler than the so-called bourgeoisie."


You’ve found one small article that states ‘former’ Marxist’s voted for hitler. I’m sure some former Marxist’s did. But the overwhelming evidence is that Hitler absolutely despised Marxism. This is direct evidence from his quotes and writing and his actions against communists. Not one tiny newspaper article.
 

Ron The Bear

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You’ve found one small article that states ‘former’ Marxist’s voted for hitler. I’m sure some former Marxist’s did. But the overwhelming evidence is that Hitler absolutely despised Marxism. This is direct evidence from his quotes and writing and his actions against communists. Not one tiny newspaper article.
Just passing by and don't really want to develop this argument, but didn't Hitler claim to a Nazi colleague that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx?

 

Morrison33

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They seek to (forcibly) create equality. Generally at the expense of the educated and wealthy.



Yes, of course.

Assume I totally seize control of the means of production in Australia as part of a unitary party dictatorship.

If I then use that total power to implement political reforms and control based on something left of the Greens platform, and to abolish hierarchies by redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor, I'm Left wing.

If I instead use that total power and control to implement political reforms that ban non white immigration, deport non-white criminals, sterilize disabled people, disenfranchise women, and massacre ethnic and religious minorities, I'm far right wing.

Left wing people want to abolish hierarchies. Many see socialist economics as the means to accomplish this. But a fair few people on the Right also desire socialist economics (and control of the means of production) so they can implement Far Right wing political goals and policies.

Fascists and Nazis fall into that later category.

Economics is defined as 'the social science that studies how people interact with value; in particular, the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.'

Politics is defined as: 'The set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.'

They're not the same thing, although they are closely intertwined, and most if not all political positions, parties and theories will advocate for a particular economic model (usually socialism, capitalism or mixed) to better further the political positions goals.

Meds conflates the two all the time.
The objective of the mainstream right side of politics is to put family at the heart of society and allow ALL individuals to reach his or her full potential.

When I say ALL individuals I am referring to everyone be they Rich or Poor, Male or Female, White or Black, Straight or Gay etc. Everyone is important.

The objective of the left is to put government at the heart of society and to stive for equality most often by taking from one group and giving to another.

The right care just as much about advancing the interest of minorities and the disadvantaged in society as the left do its just that the two sides have a different approach.
 

Morrison33

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By their own actions shall they be condemned. It's one thing to say 'Bloody immigrants. They took our jobs!'. It's quite another to seek paramilitary and/or political power in order to start exclusionist and segregationist policies against anyone who isn't of your own ethnicity. The first lot (Group A) have concerns that can actually be addressed by an inclusionary society. Employment and financial security is a common concern across all ethnic divides, and so it only benefits society as a whole to solve it as best we can together.

The second group (Group B) - pure hate. This second group see the first group as useful idiots and a pool to recruit from. What you're saying - how some are throwing around the 'racist' and supremacist' label a little too freely - is actually true to a certain extent and in some areas it is alienating Group A from the mainstream and pushing them into the arms of Group B.

We can address unemployment without being racist. We can address ethnic crime statistics without being racist. We need to stop feeding Group B, and the way to do that is to try to answer Group A's legitimate concerns in a way that won't alienate anyone.
Truth is high immigration will always lead to lower wages and less job security because it means a greater supply of workers. Nothing can be done about this.

You can only raise award rates and conditions so so much before you limit the ability of small business to hire and employ people.

This is not a racist position to take because it doesn't matter what the skin colour of those immigrants are. Its just basic economics.
 

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Morrison33

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Any one of those dickheads could turn into a murderer. That is the logical conclusion to their warped ideology.
Our gun laws serve us well in Australia.

What are the stats on how many many people have been killed bv NAZIS in Australia over the past 10 years ?
 

Malifice

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The right care just as much about advancing the interest of minorities and the disadvantaged in society as the left do its just that the two sides have a different approach.
But they don't. The further to the right you go, the more you see hostility towards women, LGBTI, ethnic and religious minorities and so forth.

Any thread on any of those topics (minorities, migration, LGBTI issues, feminism, etc) will see the conservative posters on here supporting laws to harm those minorities/ or opposing laws to assist them (prohibiting same sex marriage, approving mandatory detention of refugees, stopping non white migration, opposing safe schools etc etc).

Conversely the left leaning posters will support safe schools, migration, feminist issues, same sex marriage etc.

Go to a right wing forum, have a read, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
 

Morrison33

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There was that one that decided to go on a killing spree in NZ instead of Australia.
I am not across all the details but as far as I know NZ at the time had gun laws that were far more relaxed than ours.

I agree Neo Nazis should not be given a platform to reach vulnerable minds with their hate.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Anyone who knows a bikie or three can get access to guns.
You don't need a bikie, just a coffee and a bickie while you print the bastard out on a 3D printer!!

 

Contra Mundum

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Wow man. I have not come onto this forum for 18 months. Looks like nothing changes. Some new arguments from the "Nazis where Communist" Front I see.

Bloody Hitler was a crafty bugger - blamed his comrades for the Reichstag fire, banned the KPD in 1933, locked most prominent KPD members in Dachau by 36. With friends like him - who needs enemies I say!!!
 

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