Bevo out

[total football]

I'm more in line with your thinking, i.e. that we should be in contention for a top 4 spot. I was just alerting you to the fact that a number of people here have expressed good reasons why they think we're just a middle-ranked side (fringe of the 8, roughly). For all I know they could be right.

I do think we are still one or two quality players short of where we want to be but we will get organic improvement as the side matures and gets more experience. All those years of continually being the youngest side running out each week surely have to end if we can keep the list together. Just look at the age and years of experience of this year's grand finalists. We have those opportunities still in front of us.

I'm not ready to throw Bevo out but I do think we need to throw out the bathwater ... before somebody drinks it.

6th to 10th. Really with 1 to 2 players developing like Williams did this year, our best 28 staying fit and another 1 to 2 role players being brought in we are not far away from a top 4 list but we are not there yet.

So I think the three of us (at least) are in agreement: the current list should be performing at a higher level than it has been.

My issue is that under McCartney, the club had a very clear strategy. Under McCartney, the fans knew what kind of football we wanted to play and were aware of the process we were undertaking to do so.

Under Beveridge, I have no idea what we are trying to build (gimmicks like the third man up is not a game plan). Under Beveridge, our list has not matured and our performances have not improved - with the exception of what now seems to be a complete fluke of a finals campaign in 2016 that caught everyone at the club by surprise.

In our first final under Beveridge, we were regularly exposed by Adelaide's transition and it cost us the game. In our last game, five years later, we were continually exposed by St Kilda's transition and it cost us the game. There is no Plan B and there hasn't been for five years.

Beveridge likes to possess the ball and play a high defensive line. That's fine, but to play this way you need to score, because it's likely that you are going to be scored against. In the last five years we have been plagued by an inability to convert chances. Plan A, B and C seems to be 'get everyone forward, bomb the ball to the top of the goal square and see what happens'. Every now and then, the brilliance of a 20 year old kid makes the plan look more sophisticated than it actually is.

Football is actually very simple: to win games, you need to score. But if you can't score, you need to stop the opposition from scoring. Under Beveridge, we also struggle to do this. We regularly fail to close down passing outlets and opposition players seem to find it very easy to exit our forward 50. We regularly make very average players look better than they are. We also regularly lose stoppages and concede clearances in dangerous areas, such as on the edge of our half or in the centre of the ground. Once the opposition gets goal side, it's game over.

You can play a high line and you can lose clearances in dangerous areas, but you can't do both. Beveridge seems to want to do both.

If we are going to keep playing Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

in the ruck and throwing Tim English to the wolves, it doesn't matter who we recruit. We consistently lose games at the selection table and I don't see this changing anytime soon.

 

[lachy]

One thing that is seriously underestimated not just by our supporters but by many supporters in the AFL, due to the structure and breakdown of our season with 22 regular season games followed by finals, how incredibly hard it is to finish top 4 as preliminary finalists. I understand that there can only be one winner, but getting to a prelim is an achievement in itself and they are often harder games to win than the actual Grand Final itself.

We are not too far away and I am not sure getting in another coach would ensure a smoother improvement than backing Bev in

 

[total football]

About 6-10th. That's only due to experience. There are only a handful of rare teams that get anywhere near the top without their best players being 27+. We don't even get to have our fringe players in that range. Tried trading around it with Bruce and Keath, but the only real solution is time.

We're getting close. We did well last year to keep the group together, from the sounds of it we're doing well again this year. If we have a fit team next year there's no excuses to miss the 8, and the year after we should expect to get into that top 5 area.

On paper, I think we are a 3-6th ranked team. But that's based on the theory that all players on the list will naturally improve and that improvement is achieved in a linear fashion.

Are you happy with the development of players like Richards, Lipinski, Cordy, Young, Schache, Dale and even McClean, English etc?

I'd argue that neither have quite turned out to be the players we thought they'd be by this stage of their respective careers even 12-24 months ago.

 

[Boyd oh Boyd]

On paper, I think we are a 3-6th ranked team. But that's based on the theory that all players on the list will naturally improve and that improvement is achieved in a linear fashion.

Are you happy with the development of players like Richards, Lipinski, Cordy, Young, Schache, Dale and even McClean, English etc?

I'd argue that neither have quite turned out to be the players we thought they'd be by this stage of their respective careers even 12-24 months ago.

You hit the nail on the head. Progession isn't linear. So often for every step you take forward you have to take two back. Lipinski developed his inside game last year and become best 22 last year (good step forward). His forward craft has suffered and he didn't progress his outside game which is the two positions he ended up being needed (two steps back). Next year maybe he'll only need to take one step back (contested game) for a step forward (ball use). Or maybe it'll be 3 for none, or none for 2. There's no way of knowing how younger players will progress. It's why even sides stacked with lots of young talent like Sydney or Freo aren't reliable. You just can't be with players in that stage.

 

[dogwatch]

On paper, I think we are a 3-6th ranked team. But that's based on the theory that all players on the list will naturally improve and that improvement is achieved in a linear fashion.

Are you happy with the development of players like Richards, Lipinski, Cordy, Young, Schache, Dale and even McClean, English etc?

I'd argue that neither have quite turned out to be the players we thought they'd be by this stage of their respective careers even 12-24 months ago.

True, the first five have been disappointing. That's cherry-picking though. Every club has a handful of disappointing players whose careers seem to stall (and sometimes get going again later).

By contrast I'm very happy with the recent development of Wallis, Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

, Crozier, McLean, Vandermeer, Williams and Daniel.

English is a special case that I'll return to in the coming days.

I won't rule it out but I'd need more evidence to agree that the shortcomings of all of Richards, Lipinski, Cordy, Young, Schache and Dale are due to poor coaching and management ... if that's what you're suggesting. The only one I'd be inclined to agree with at this stage is Richards and even then it's only partial agreement. Maybe I'd consider Schache too, but all players - including Richards - have to accept the majority of the responsibility for their own success or lack of it.

Improvement is never uniform for every player on the list but when a number of players step up then the overall effect on the team appears to be steady improvement, even if a few others have gone backwards. Also there's a "rising tide lifts all boats" effect - that is, if we're winning more ball and getting more time to deliver it then it brings other players into the game. They look better even if they haven't really improved in themselves.

 

[Jeff 1975]

Do you really trust the 'powers that be', i.e. management of a club that has failed to win a cup in 93 of the last 95 seasons?

Until we address the lack height as indicated by Bevo at his St Kilda press conference we won’t make top 4
This omission is a little confusing as Bevo preference is to go short

We do have a sad history and very little success – why is this so?
Its seems very hard for to us attract the players we need
Is it money? – Shouldn’t be
Is it poor management? – Possibly
Is it poor recruiting? – Yes
Is it poor coaching? – 50/50

Its trade time we should be trying very hard to get the players Bevo has indicated we need
Thus far all I’ve heard is we might lose one

Any chance of getting any of these Brown, Cameron, Daniher, De Goey, Smith or Treloar or do we again go after fringe players?

Time to go after another Tom Boyd

 

[josh the gent]

I’ll leave that up to the powers that be, not a bunch of uneducated plebs on a forum

Lol, you’re posting..... on a forum.

 

[Bald]

Lol, you’re posting..... on a forum.

Correct - if it wasn't obvious I was including myself in the comment I made..

 

[josh the gent]

Correct - if it wasn't obvious I was including myself in the comment I made..

Ok.

I suppose I’m interested in your view - at what point is enough, enough?

If we finish 5-8 for the next 2 seasons?

By then Libba will be 30, Macrae 28, and the great Bont almost 27...

As a comparison, Grant Thomas was exited from the Saints after a week 1 finals exit in 2006. Ross Lyon may have missed out on a flag by an Ablett toepoke and a Milne non-collect - but one could not argue that he didn’t get every sinew out of the Saints list...

 

[Bald]

Ok.

I suppose I’m interested in your view - at what point is enough, enough?

If we finish 5-8 for the next 2 seasons?

By then Libba will be 30, Macrae 28, and the great Bont almost 27...

As a comparison, Grant Thomas was exited from the Saints after a week 1 finals exit in 2006. Ross Lyon may have missed out on a flag by an Ablett toepoke and a Milne non-collect - but one could not argue that he didn’t get every sinew out of the Saints list...

The same Libba, Macrae and Bont that are already premiership players right?

I don't know, I'm not educated enough to make that judgement.

 

[josh the gent]

The same Libba, Macrae and Bont that are already premiership players right?

I don't know, I'm not educated enough to make that judgement.

I genuinely agree with everything you just said.

Onto my ignore list given you actually don’t have anything to contribute.

 

[Bald]

I genuinely agree with everything you just said.

Onto my ignore list given you actually don’t have anything to contribute.

Wow, who hurt you?

 

[Oliver G]

 

[total football]

You hit the nail on the head. Progession isn't linear. So often for every step you take forward you have to take two back. Lipinski developed his inside game last year and become best 22 last year (good step forward). His forward craft has suffered and he didn't progress his outside game which is the two positions he ended up being needed (two steps back). Next year maybe he'll only need to take one step back (contested game) for a step forward (ball use). Or maybe it'll be 3 for none, or none for 2. There's no way of knowing how younger players will progress. It's why even sides stacked with lots of young talent like Sydney or Freo aren't reliable. You just can't be with players in that stage.

True, the first five have been disappointing. That's cherry-picking though. Every club has a handful of disappointing players whose careers seem to stall (and sometimes get going again later).

By contrast I'm very happy with the recent development of Wallis, Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

, Crozier, McLean, Vandermeer, Williams and Daniel.

English is a special case that I'll return to in the coming days.

I won't rule it out but I'd need more evidence to agree that the shortcomings of all of Richards, Lipinski, Cordy, Young, Schache and Dale are due to poor coaching and management ... if that's what you're suggesting. The only one I'd be inclined to agree with at this stage is Richards and even then it's only partial agreement. Maybe I'd consider Schache too, but all players - including Richards - have to accept the majority of the responsibility for their own success or lack of it.

Improvement is never uniform for every player on the list but when a number of players step up then the overall effect on the team appears to be steady improvement, even if a few others have gone backwards. Also there's a "rising tide lifts all boats" effect - that is, if we're winning more ball and getting more time to deliver it then it brings other players into the game. They look better even if they haven't really improved in themselves.

I've deliberately cherry-picked these six because I think they are central to whether this group climbs into the top 4 or becomes a perennial 8-12th ranked side.

All have been highly rated at times but none have matured as players and stamped themselves on the side, let alone the competition. If Schache, Young and Cordy get their act together and elevate to consistent, best 18 players in key positions then the entire dynamic of our squad changes. If they don't (Schache and Young aren't looking good), we are years behind and still need to go out and find three key position players with at least five years' experience.

Regarding Richards, Lipinski, Young, Schache and Dale, it's unclear to many what their true position actually is and where they fit into our side on a regular basis. Beveridge has thrown the magnets around quite a bit and still hasn't found a home for them. Even Cordy's position is ambiguous - is he a key defender or third tall? Or is he a centre half forward?

To be consistent performers, all need to find a harder edge to their game (I don't believe this can't be coached). Chopping and changing at the selection table isn't helping things.

Granted, Crozier has been a good find - but he should be, he was brought in as a mature-ager with plenty of games under the belt. McLean has played some good football but (IMO) he should be in our top 5-10 players every week (he isn't). Vandermeer has had some good games early in his career but so did Brad Lynch. It was obvious that Williams and Daniel both had serious talent from the moment they arrived at the club; their form shouldn't be a surprise, it should be expected.

At the end of the day, we win some and we lose some. But the progress made by the players you've identified is undermined by the lack of progress from the players I've mentioned. For every Mitch Wallis, we can't afford to have an Ed Richards

20

Ed Richards

Age

26

Ht

188cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.4

4star

CL

0.7

3star

D

11.3

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.3

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

2.5

3star

CL

1.1

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.2

2star

falling by the way side. We need to win more than we lose, and at the moment I don't think this is happening.

 

[Mattdougie]

Must have been a lucky dip

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

How could anyone seriously know which assistants at ALL clubs are good or bad? It's a nothing award, as there is no way for any independent arbiter to assess all of them. Do they just rotate it around all clubs? I think Mattdougie's lucky dip scenario is probably closer to the truth than anyone in the AFL would care to admit.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

I've deliberately cherry-picked these six because I think they are central to whether this group climbs into the top 4 or becomes a perennial 8-12th ranked side.

All have been highly rated at times but none have matured as players and stamped themselves on the side, let alone the competition. If Schache, Young and Cordy get their act together and elevate to consistent, best 18 players in key positions then the entire dynamic of our squad changes. If they don't (Schache and Young aren't looking good), we are years behind and still need to go out and find three key position players with at least five years' experience.

Regarding Richards, Lipinski, Young, Schache and Dale, it's unclear to many what their true position actually is and where they fit into our side on a regular basis. Beveridge has thrown the magnets around quite a bit and still hasn't found a home for them. Even Cordy's position is ambiguous - is he a key defender or third tall? Or is he a centre half forward?

To be consistent performers, all need to find a harder edge to their game (I don't believe this can't be coached). Chopping and changing at the selection table isn't helping things.

Granted, Crozier has been a good find - but he should be, he was brought in as a mature-ager with plenty of games under the belt. McLean has played some good football but (IMO) he should be in our top 5-10 players every week (he isn't). Vandermeer has had some good games early in his career but so did Brad Lynch. It was obvious that Williams and Daniel both had serious talent from the moment they arrived at the club; their form shouldn't be a surprise, it should be expected.

At the end of the day, we win some and we lose some. But the progress made by the players you've identified is undermined by the lack of progress from the players I've mentioned. For every Mitch Wallis, we can't afford to have an Ed Richards

20

Ed Richards

Age

26

Ht

188cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.4

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.4

4star

CL

0.7

3star

D

11.3

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.3

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

2.5

3star

CL

1.1

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.2

2star

falling by the way side. We need to win more than we lose, and at the moment I don't think this is happening.

I don't disagree with pretty most of what you've written there, but I would argue McLean was easily top 10 in quite a few (not all) games he played this year. Was a strange decision when he was omitted during the season IMO. You talk about a harder edge in relation to the other players you listed, he certainly had that, especially late in the season, and played well in several roles. Unfortunately for him, his best position is mid, but given the quality of our rotations, he gets limited time in there. At times this year he's been a mid, run off half back, run-with mid, attacking and defensive forward, wing. Hard to clock up big numbers and get into the game being thrown around on almost a weekly basis, yet at the point he did his knee had been in our best half dozen for a few weeks.

 

[thejoker2020]

We’re not really a destination club to begin with & most probably won’t be (ie: Pies, Tiger's, Cat's etc) in which will always place us on a slight back-foot, whilst Bevo appeared great for the club for 2015 & for obvious reasons in 2016! However his since constantly tried re-inventing the wheel too much & quickly (Coaching changes, player’s playing unfamiliar roles, player exodus, disgruntled player’s, wrong player’s being picked week in week out, playing favorites, player’s in unfamiliar positions – list goes on) which is quite clearly backfiring season in & out as we’re falling well behind the pack now with the likes of Lion’s, Power & I can see the Blue’s jumping us in 2021. Dunkley now (Potentially wanting out, should be the nail in the head( Bevo), his not the right fit for us anymore). Whilst Bevo appears to be a likable character on media & his analogy’s, I see Bevo as a great fit for a club like North Melbourne as an example team rebuilding and he can experiment how he pleases. While I’m grateful in what he has been able to achieve (2016 is unforgettable & truly memorable being at the game on that day that I won’t forget), however if I’m honest, all the right cards fell into place during the most crucial part of that season – Finals. McCartney I feel did a lot of hard yards in setting the team up with his “see ball, get ball strategy” (Contested ball winning) which built a great foundation for Bevo to capitalize on, he hasn’t. He attempted too, it’s backfired and his continued to be stubborn about his game plan.

 

[AJARWA]

So I think the three of us (at least) are in agreement: the current list should be performing at a higher level than it has been.

My issue is that under McCartney, the club had a very clear strategy. Under McCartney, the fans knew what kind of football we wanted to play and were aware of the process we were undertaking to do so.

Under Beveridge, I have no idea what we are trying to build (gimmicks like the third man up is not a game plan). Under Beveridge, our list has not matured and our performances have not improved - with the exception of what now seems to be a complete fluke of a finals campaign in 2016 that caught everyone at the club by surprise.

In our first final under Beveridge, we were regularly exposed by Adelaide's transition and it cost us the game. In our last game, five years later, we were continually exposed by St Kilda's transition and it cost us the game. There is no Plan B and there hasn't been for five years.

Beveridge likes to possess the ball and play a high defensive line. That's fine, but to play this way you need to score, because it's likely that you are going to be scored against. In the last five years we have been plagued by an inability to convert chances. Plan A, B and C seems to be 'get everyone forward, bomb the ball to the top of the goal square and see what happens'. Every now and then, the brilliance of a 20 year old kid makes the plan look more sophisticated than it actually is.

Football is actually very simple: to win games, you need to score. But if you can't score, you need to stop the opposition from scoring. Under Beveridge, we also struggle to do this. We regularly fail to close down passing outlets and opposition players seem to find it very easy to exit our forward 50. We regularly make very average players look better than they are. We also regularly lose stoppages and concede clearances in dangerous areas, such as on the edge of our half or in the centre of the ground. Once the opposition gets goal side, it's game over.

You can play a high line and you can lose clearances in dangerous areas, but you can't do both. Beveridge seems to want to do both.

If we are going to keep playing Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

in the ruck and throwing Tim English to the wolves, it doesn't matter who we recruit. We consistently lose games at the selection table and I don't see this changing anytime soon.

I also think our high press isn't working. It seems to get us more inside 50s than the opposition most weeks. But they're often repeat, low quality entries into a crowded forward line after an initial butchered forward entry.

Repeat entries might work ok against crap defences and worked ok against decent teams in 2016 when we had Dickson, Stringer, Picken and Smith up forward. But not with our current forward line made up mostly of inside mids and the occasional HBF.

Then going the other way teams with either pace or decent skills find it easy to breach our high press and score. Quality over quantity inside 50s.

It came as no surprise that we couldn't beat a team in the top eight (a heavily injured Eagles barely counts) this year. And imo we're not going anywhere if the coaches don't come up with an alternative plan. OR change our list to add some class into our forward line and/or mids that don't butcher the ball going forward so we get quality F50 entries (which is why I'm not against trading Dunkley for a quality ball user and why I support Daniel playing higher).

 

[BEaston]

Everyone will be happy, Gia has been poached.

 

[Substance]

Needle of hatred moving from gws to essendon...

 

[lachy]

Gee, who would have thought coaches moving and being appointed after the season has ended.

Hopefully there is full clarification around the soft cap and over the next couple of weeks our full coaching and football department line up can be announced

 

[LondonBulldog]

Keep the coach yet tweak the game plan. "Total Football" your on the right track, our defenders push up way too much, our forward line way too crowded.

You only have to look at the Tigers to see the game plan which is winning football. Flood back, pressure, pressure, pressure then run forward in waves keeping the ball alive and moving fast at all costs and catch the opposition out. Recruit a bunch of small, fast, aggressive and tough onballers. A couple of talls up forward and in defensive and a ruck. The tigers on sat had 7 players under 180cm, that's nearly unheard of. In 2017 they won with Riewoldt, Rance and Nakervis (3 geniune talls) You know why, 6 years ago they said what we are doing aren't working and they turned it on its head.

We need that moment, we are close but far, turn the game plan and reap the rewards. Stick with what you know and stay the same!

 

[lachy]

Keep the coach yet tweak the game plan. "Total Football" your on the right track, our defenders push up way too much, our forward line way too crowded.

You only have to look at the Tigers to see the game plan which is winning football. Flood back, pressure, pressure, pressure then run forward in waves keeping the ball alive and moving fast at all costs and catch the opposition out. Recruit a bunch of small, fast, aggressive and tough onballers. A couple of talls up forward and in defensive and a ruck. The tigers on sat had 7 players under 180cm, that's nearly unheard of. In 2017 they won with Riewoldt, Rance and Nakervis (3 geniune talls) You know why, 6 years ago they said what we are doing aren't working and they turned it on its head.

We need that moment, we are close but far, turn the game plan and reap the rewards. Stick with what you know and stay the same!

The Tiges set a deeper defensive press, which as well as limiting exposure out the back also does not compress the ground further into the forward line, hence why we have a more congested forward line.

Other than swapping the kick to handball ratio their gameplan is just our 2016 gameplan with evolution. We really are a lot closer and the tweaking is not that significant

 

[LondonBulldog]

The Tiges set a deeper defensive press, which as well as limiting exposure out the back also does not compress the ground further into the forward line, hence why we have a more congested forward line.

Other than swapping the kick to handball ratio their gameplan is just our 2016 gameplan with evolution. We really are a lot closer and the tweaking is not that significant

Yes, I agree yet certain tweaks like setting a deeper defensive press would help open the forward line and players like Richards, Vanders really come into there own. We don't get nearly enough easy goals.