List Mgmt. Big key forward

[sr36]

That is because we refuse to draft and develop our own.

It's a bit of a catch 22 though. Influential KPFs are so few and far between and anyone with half a chance costs so much in the draft that you've got to be willing to blow a fair few early picks to get one, in which case, you'll probably end up with big gaps elsewhere.

 

[loki04]

It's a bit of a catch 22 though. Influential KPFs are so few and far between and anyone with half a chance costs so much in the draft that you've got to be willing to blow a fair few early picks to get one, in which case, you'll probably end up with big gaps elsewhere.

You cant go a decade with recruiting 1 fwd (a FS no less, which you then turned into defender 3 years in), and then claim: well we'd have gaps else where... our team is stacked with midfield and half fwd/def types and we still focus on this at draft/trade table.

 

[Apex36]

Ask the GWS board if they reckon Grundy for Cameron (or DeGoey for Cameron) would be fair trades. As awesome as we consider Grundy and DeGoey to be, I doubt they’ll consider either of them to be anywhere near Cameron’s value.

Of course they won’t, all club boards over value their players. Frankly i wouldn’t trade Grundy for Cameron if the trade was floated. As a general rule if both clubs supporters feel like they’ve been dudded then the trade value is around the mark.

 

[76woodenspooners]

That is because we refuse to draft and develop our own.

Our recent attempts at developing our own KPF ...

- Darcy Moore (Moved Back)
- Lachlan Keeffe (Ping ponged between forward and defence, didn’t end up being decent at either)
- Cory Gault (Given all the time in the world to develop but just didn’t make it)
- Jackson Paine (must have been the shortest KPF in the history of the game)
- Jon Ceglar (we thought he was a bust, but he ended up becoming a decent ruckman for Hawthorn)

Have I missed any?

Apart from Moore they’ve all been very speculative picks. Our early picks have generally turned out well with either trades (Treloar, Beamsj or picks (Stephenson, DeGoey) of had unfortunate bad luck that we couldn’t have reasonably foreseen (Scharenberg, Freeman)

I don’t follow the draft that closely, but are there examples of decent KPF that were gettable for us in the draft?

 

[jonbe54]

The biggest factor in our recent - not last season - failures can be sheeted home to losing Swanny at least 2 years earlier than expected (amazing how the bux haters ignored that) plus the incredible misfortune of 2 top 10 picks getting an immense array of ongoing injuries.

Given normal luck with those 3 we would have been a top 8 side for 5 years.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Of course they won’t, all club boards over value their players. Frankly i wouldn’t trade Grundy for Cameron if the trade was floated. As a general rule if both clubs supporters feel like they’ve been dudded then the trade value is around the mark.

Sure, but I’d put it to you that GWS’ supporters would still feel dudded if we traded Grundy + Crisp for Cameron.

Heck, we felt extremely dudded when we traded Beams for Pick 5 (DeGoey), Pick 25 (Greenwood) and Jack “Steak knives” Crisp.

 

[sr36]

You cant go a decade with recruiting 1 fwd (a FS no less, which you then turned into defender 3 years in), and then claim: well we'd have gaps else where... our team is stacked with midfield and half fwd/def types and we still focus on this at draft/trade table.

Time will tell, but a near premiership last year and a list that should get us to the pointy end for the next few years suggests that whilst it's unconventional, maybe you can. Maybe we've identified that you don't get value for your picks when you go for KPFs so you're better off just using role players as KPFs and having stars in different roles.

 

[Apex36]

Sure, but I’d put it to you that GWS’ supporters would still feel dudded if we traded Grundy + Crisp for Cameron.

Heck, we felt extremely dudded when we traded Beams for Pick 5 (DeGoey), Pick 25 (Greenwood) and Jack “Steak knives” Crisp.

Yep, and I’m hindsight we weren’t dudded at all. I’m also pretty sure that Brisbane fans felt like they paid overs at the time too. Club supporter groups aren’t really the best indicator of whether or not a deal is fair. In Cameron’s case GWS supporters would want our entire list for him and still not be satisfied, so it’s not something that I’m really going to take in to consideration.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Yep, and I’m hindsight we weren’t dudded at all. I’m also pretty sure that Brisbane fans felt like they paid overs at the time too.

No, the Brisbane board generally felt they paid a fair price.

Club supporter groups aren’t really the best indicator of whether or not a deal is fair. In Cameron’s case GWS supporters would want our entire list for him and still not be satisfied, so it’s not something that I’m really going to take in to consideration.

Yeah, I agree. Which is why when a Collingwood supporter reckons Grundy for Cameron straight swap would be reasonable, I take that with a bucketload of salt

Another way of looking at the problem ...

... if you take Jeremy Cameron out of GWS’ team, what player(s) would you need to replace him with that would have the nett effect of improving their chances of a Premiership? ‘Cause that’s the way that they will be looking at it.

 

[sr36]

No, the Brisbane board generally felt they paid a fair price.



Yeah, I agree. Which is why when a Collingwood supporter reckons Grundy for Cameron straight swap would be reasonable, I take that with a bucketload of salt

Another way of looking at the problem ...

... if you take Jeremy Cameron out of GWS’ team, what player(s) would you need to replace him with that would have the nett effect of improving their chances of a Premiership? ‘Cause that’s the way that they will be looking at it.

The answer to that question is Clarkson or Simpson.

 

[mike123]

No, the Brisbane board generally felt they paid a fair price.



Yeah, I agree. Which is why when a Collingwood supporter reckons Grundy for Cameron straight swap would be reasonable, I take that with a bucketload of salt

Another way of looking at the problem ...

... if you take Jeremy Cameron out of GWS’ team, what player(s) would you need to replace him with that would have the nett effect of improving their chances of a Premiership? ‘Cause that’s the way that they will be looking at it.

If Cameron wants to go they don’t get the luxury of asking that question.

 

[Apex36]

No, the Brisbane board generally felt they paid a fair price.



Yeah, I agree. Which is why when a Collingwood supporter reckons Grundy for Cameron straight swap would be reasonable, I take that with a bucketload of salt

Another way of looking at the problem ...

... if you take Jeremy Cameron out of GWS’ team, what player(s) would you need to replace him with that would have the nett effect of improving their chances of a Premiership? ‘Cause that’s the way that they will be looking at it.

You could say exactly the same thing about Grundy.....

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

How much of a prospect is Tohill, down the line? Obviously still young but could be a tall forward.

 

[jonbe54]

The drawbacks with a power forward are twofold.

Firstly the mids become much more one dimensional with their forward entries.

Secondly the team inevitably becomes dependent on him . . .

FLASHBACK . . .

September 1970

Macca tearing the bluze to shreds has 5 just before half time when Tuddy crashes into him and basically puts him out of business.

They are wonderful

BUT

They don't come without drawbacks.

 

[Knightmare]

Another overage key defender to watch, and I gave him a quick mention in my weekly piece. Sam Murray's brother Nicholas.

Gave him a mention in my weekly wrap: 'Overage key defender Nicholas Murray, brother of Collingwood's Sam, took two impressive one-on-one marks and a leaping intercept mark where he attacked the ball aerially like a key forward.'

Murray was one of three GWS overagers I mentioned this week (all three showed AFL traits). Those div 2 sides have some good talent and good overage talent. Getting to see these guys rounds 2-6 in the NAB League (the competition replacing TAC Cup this year) it's helpful seeing more games and a better feel for how they compare. And a lot of them are comparing favourably to a lot of the VIC talent and probably should be spoken about more than they are.

 

[76woodenspooners]

You could say exactly the same thing about Grundy.....

Absolutely!

That’s the way all trades work - all the clubs in the trade give up something, they all get something, and they all sign the deal believing that the nett result will improve their chances of being successful.

 

[76woodenspooners]

If Cameron wants to go they don’t get the luxury of asking that question.

Sure. But then we get to the question of salary cap and what clubs are prepared to pay for the player’s services. Even if Cameron wants to come and play for Collingwood for peanuts, as a RFA GWS can still match.

And yeah, if players really want to leave they can go into the draft, but how often does that happen? There was Luke Ball around 10 years ago, any others?

 

[sr36]

Absolutely!

That’s the way all trades work - all the clubs in the trade give up something, they all get something, and they all sign the deal believing that the nett result will improve their chances of being successful.

Perfectly described, but if our decision makers felt that giving up Grundy and Crisp in order to get Cameron increased our chances of winning a premiership, I'd want the decision makers at our club to be sacked.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Perfectly described, but if our decision makers felt that giving up Grundy and Crisp in order to get Cameron increased our chances of winning a premiership, I'd want the decision makers at our club to be sacked.

Couldn’t agree more!

I just can’t see any trade for Jeremy Cameron that would ...

(1) Make us better

AND

(2) Make GWS better

AND

(3) Allow us to fit Jeremy Cameron in our salary cap.

 

[76woodenspooners]

The drawbacks with a power forward are twofold.

Firstly the mids become much more one dimensional with their forward entries.

Secondly the team inevitably becomes dependent on him . . .

FLASHBACK . . .

September 1970

Macca tearing the bluze to shreds has 5 just before half time when Tuddy crashes into him and basically puts him out of business.

They are wonderful

BUT

They don't come without drawbacks.

Thirdly, Collingwood’s last two genuine AFL level key forwards (T.Cloke and A.Rocca) in their heyday could unload from 70 meters out on angle on the run and send the Sherrin straight between the big sticks ...

... but give them a set shot 20 meters out directly in front and they’d invariably kick it out on the full. Not sure that us supporters want to go through all that angst again

 

[Quicky]

Matthew Pavlich the most famous one, was completely overlooked the year before freo took at pick 4.

Ben Brown another example.

76woodenspooners.

 

[sirlothie]

I actually think marking wingmen will come back in vogue soon. The WCE defensive structure is so good at forcing teams to go long down the line. Other teams will master it. Teams will start having to accept that they often have to take the zone on and start structuring for it. Sounds like he'd be great for that.

WHE is the best marking wing but we already have a logjam for wing spots, last position we need to fill.

 

[sirlothie]

How much of a prospect is Tohill, down the line? Obviously still young but could be a tall forward.

I don't think I could stomach another KPF just learning the game in the seniors.

 

[jonbe54]

People tend to forget that season where Cloke was out for a huge chunk of the year and we were higher scoring without him.

Regularly had 11 goal kickers or more per game, very hard to contain.

It's a very viable option - have your talls but don't rely on them to kick the goals.

 

[76woodenspooners]

People tend to forget that season where Cloke was out for a huge chunk of the year and we were higher scoring without him.

Regularly had 11 goal kickers or more per game, very hard to contain.

It's a very viable option - have your talls but don't rely on them to kick the goals.

Absolutely!

Pop Quiz: Who kicked more goals in these years?

(A) Travis Cloke in our Premiership year of 2010

(B) Will Hoskin Elliott in 2018

Spoiler: “Answer”

WHE kicked more (42 goals in 26 games versus Travis Cloke 38 goals in 24 games)

Pop Quiz 2: Who kicked more goals in these years?

(A) Combination of Travis Cloke and Chris Dawes in our Blitzkrieg year of 2011, the year we only lost to one team

(B) Combination of Jordan DeGoey and Will Hoskin Elliott in 2018

Spoiler: “Answer”

Cloke (69 goals in 25 games) + Dawes (27 goals in 18 games) = 96 goals in 43 games, did kick more than JDG (48 goals in 21 games) + WHE (42 goals in 26 games) = 90 goals in 46 games, but there isn’t much in it especially when you consider how much of our salary cap we must have been paying Cloke at the time.