Boomers vs the rest

[raskolnikov]

Given that I was clearly talking about Australia being free of war and economic depression that's something everyone experienced equally.

I know you need to keep on the negatives but we are all very lucky to live in the best place, at the best time ever for humanity.

Some of us or our parents weren't born in Australia.

 

[owen87]

Tell me with a straight face if you buy a house that you wouldn’t want it to be worth more when you sell it in the future ?

This is what everyone keeps saying. That the two things are inherently linked is a relatively modern problem.

People want their shelter to also be a highly lucrative investment, so successive Governments have made policy that facilitates this, as soon as you own a home you go from being concerned about the affordability of housing, to wanting to maximise your investment.

Im all for affordable housing

It's absolutely hypocritical to claim you care about access to shelter, but also want a strong ROI from your property (or properties).

It's fine to be hypocritical, most people are, but at least be aware of it.

I stumped up the capital
Went through all efforts and risks of borrowing and building
Built properties that people now rent while they save or are building their own properties

I like how you throw this last line in, to make it seem like you're doing it for the good of others.

You're also making a profit from this deal.

We have no control of population growth , immigration , land supply releases etc

No, but 30 - 50 odd years of voting for Governments who do make such decisions means the boomer generation has had a hell of a lot to do with the current laws and policies in place.

Try asking the government why they don’t open up huge tracts of cheap land and then drop the taxes on building materials to incentivise more housing stock to be built

So one generation has made huge wealth gains, spent a few decades making favourable laws and policies, and wants the next generation to clean up their mess?

I wonder why younger people blame boomers for stuff...

It's not that people are saying you are the direct cause of all that's wrong with the world, but after 30-50 years of being able to vote, and being the generation that's been in charge of the government for a lot of the current laws and policies, you can understand why young people see the boomers (or, older people) as responsible for the current situation given they've been happy to bank that drastic increase in wealth and are trying to tell young people to just toughen up, not actually doing anything.

 

[Kram]

Fairly exaggerated but I understand your point
Prices double about every 15 years but escalated in recent years ( Global economy , easier to travel , stability of Australia?)

After GFC till about 2019 it plateaued then went backwards.
Covid bullshit made it go Bunta !

The fact it increases is growing population and limited land release

And anyway
Tell me with a straight face if you buy a house that you wouldn’t want it to be worth more when you sell it in the future ?

To be fair I assume we are both talking Perth where it's nowhere near as bad and there was even a 10 year run where they stayed pretty flat until covid. I've been looking at somewhere small around the Inglewood/Maylands border with around $800k+ and think geez that's a lot of money, but god knows how much something equivalent distance from the city would cost over east. Whilst I only want to move to the Perth for something better people can still get houses in outer areas for $4-500k in areas that you wont get stabbed.

 

[JyeDye]

To be fair I assume we are both talking Perth where it's nowhere near as bad and there was even a 10 year run where they stayed pretty flat until covid. I've been looking at somewhere small around the Inglewood/Maylands border with around $800k+ and think geez that's a lot of money, but god knows how much something equivalent distance from the city would cost over east. Whilst I only want to move to the Perth for something better people can still get houses in outer areas for $4-500k in areas that you wont get stabbed.

My grandma was just offered $400k for her house by a developer who wants to knock it down. $400k for some land. Where is her house? Country Vic, 3 hours away from Melbourne in a town with a population of 8000 people. We are truly ****ed.

 

[Madas]

This is what everyone keeps saying. That the two things are inherently linked is a relatively modern problem.

People want their shelter to also be a highly lucrative investment, so successive Governments have made policy that facilitates this, as soon as you own a home you go from being concerned about the affordability of housing, to wanting to maximise your investment.



It's absolutely hypocritical to claim you care about access to shelter, but also want a strong ROI from your property (or properties).

It's fine to be hypocritical, most people are, but at least be aware of it.



I like how you throw this last line in, to make it seem like you're doing it for the good of others.

You're also making a profit from this deal.



No, but 30 - 50 odd years of voting for Governments who do make such decisions means the boomer generation has had a hell of a lot to do with the current laws and policies in place.



So one generation has made huge wealth gains, spent a few decades making favourable laws and policies, and wants the next generation to clean up their mess?

I wonder why younger people blame boomers for stuff...

It's not that people are saying you are the direct cause of all that's wrong with the world, but after 30-50 years of being able to vote, and being the generation that's been in charge of the government for a lot of the current laws and policies, you can understand why young people see the boomers (or, older people) as responsible for the current situation given they've been happy to bank that drastic increase in wealth and are trying to tell young people to just toughen up, not actually doing anything.

This is starting to devolve into more of a housing affordability debate than vs boomers
Look I can’t possibly argue with the fact that the government has made some monumental f*k ups in not addressing housing affordability.
Covid stimulus should have been solely for social housing and first home buyers , not Reno’s and anyone else who could be bothered to fill out the forms .
Negative gearing should never have been allowed on existing housing.
Torturous approval process for land release and development created a massive backlog of land .

But I will go to my grave arguing that those of us who invested in property did so with any mal intent .
And also I would argue that there most definitely is a demand for rentals from some people.

I think you may be so caught up in your ideals that you are blurring reality .
Government agencies want rentals from the private market to accomodate police , doctors , nurses etc

People need somewhere to live while they save and then finally build

Where do these properties exist in your utopian world ?

Ive agreed with you that some government policy is to blame for this problem but I also take offence at you implying that we are hypocritical and greedy just because we invested in housing. Hell if you really want to you could mount an argument that any form of investing is bad where profits from companies need to be excessive enough to provide shareholders with a healthy return.

Looking from the outside it’s Capitalism you have a bug bear with , not boomers , and that’s fine , so do I .

 

[Taylor]

Some of us or our parents weren't born in Australia.

Neither of my parents were born in Australia. My mother's first bed in Australia was at Woomera.

But whatever.

 

[owen87]

This is starting to devolve into more of a housing affordability debate than vs boomers
Look I can’t possibly argue with the fact that the government has made some monumental f*k ups in not addressing housing affordability.
Covid stimulus should have been solely for social housing and first home buyers , not Reno’s and anyone else who could be bothered to fill out the forms .
Negative gearing should never have been allowed on existing housing.
Torturous approval process for land release and development created a massive backlog of land .

But I will go to my grave arguing that those of us who invested in property did so with any mal intent .
And also I would argue that there most definitely is a demand for rentals from some people.

I think you may be so caught up in your ideals that you are blurring reality .
Government agencies want rentals from the private market to accomodate police , doctors , nurses etc

People need somewhere to live while they save and then finally build

Where do these properties exist in your utopian world ?

Ive agreed with you that some government policy is to blame for this problem but I also take offence at you implying that we are hypocritical and greedy just because we invested in housing. Hell if you really want to you could mount an argument that any form of investing is bad where profits from companies need to be excessive enough to provide shareholders with a healthy return.

Looking from the outside it’s Capitalism you have a bug bear with , not boomers , and that’s fine , so do I .

Not blurring reality at all, housing access and affordability is a huge issue, possibly the biggest issue facing the younger generation today as it drives a massive portion of the cost of living pressures people are facing, and has a lot of future implications for the ability for people to be financially independent.

As I said, it's not about you specifically doing the best for yourself in your specific situation, but there's a pretty systemic divide between previous generations and young people today in terms of home ownership now and in the future, where the older generation that has been the key voting bloc for the best part of the last half a century has done little to nothing to pressure or vote for Government that does anything but make changes that lead to increased house prices.

There's nothing inherently wrong with investing, but having residential housing incentivised as an investment class is a part of why these issues are occurring, and however you wish to frame it, unless you're providing low cost housing to low income earners without a financial gain, trying to spin your property investing as some kind of social good is very misleading.

You're investing in property because it makes you money, and will provide you with income through rent as you get older, and/or a financial windfall through capital gain if you sell it. You wouldn't be doing it otherwise. There's nothing wrong with doing that, as an individual trying to do the best for yourself, but let's be honest with your motives here - which you've said yourself.

I don't have to have the answer to every single question right now to have an opinion that the current situation is problematic, or to know that the Government has spent decades not doing anything. The same Government voted for by those who'd be called 'boomers' today, and the same Government made up of boomers.

I agree that the Government has made a whole lot of *ups, and a whole lot of choices in order to benefit home owners primarily, which also happens to be skewed to older age demographics;

“Back in my day” – comparing Millennials with earlier generations

Explores topics like education, employment and housing across Baby Boomers, Generation X and Millennials

www.abs.gov.au

Home ownership is a huge issue, you can see that at the same age Millennials are significantly less likely to own a home than any generation before them, which means we're likely to see many more long-term renters. Continuing to do nothing except incentivising residential property as an investment class is bad policy, it has been bad policy for a long time.

 

[Taylor]

I think the data for the cost of building a home, as in materials and labor, compared to the same figures in generations past will show that the very good surge in the standard of living for tradespeople has been passed onto the broader community as a function of about twice the cost of the materials - which have risen in price considerably as local production became too expensive.

It would be better if there was a basic standard of living provided by society, it might even just be a bunk with a view of a toilet and shower, but it would mean that any effort beyond staying on that bunk should afford you a standard of living greater.

It's not productive for a society to have people unable to afford requirements of living. The path to that point is people being unable to afford what they believe to be a reasonable standard of living but would make the kings of old jealous.

 

[Chief]

Given that I was clearly talking about Australia being free of war and economic depression that's something everyone experienced equally.

I know you need to keep on the negatives but we are all very lucky to live in the best place, at the best time ever for humanity.

I was CLEARLY talking about your reference to the country as a paradise. It quite CLEARLY is not for everyone, or even most people. Incomes are not matching inflation so it is CLEARLY getting worse for many.

Framing the existence of negatives in the way you have ("you need to keep on the negatives") helps conservatives ignore the negatives, externalise them, shoot the messenger.

 

[Chief]

a reasonable standard of living but would make the kings of old jealous.

You'd really have to pick your monarch to make that true. And go waaaayyy back to people dwelling in huts.

 

[Taylor]

I was CLEARLY talking about your reference to the country as a paradise. It quite CLEARLY is not for everyone, or even most people. Incomes are not matching inflation so it is CLEARLY getting worse for many.

Framing the existence of negatives in the way you have ("you need to keep on the negatives") helps conservatives ignore the negatives, externalise them, shoot the messenger.

You're so sensitive about Australia being labelled a paradise that you can't even in the context of comparing to the rest of the world around NOT BEING AT WAR or being in an economic depression let it go.

I think "progressives" need to keep people's face pointed at the dog poo so they don't look up and see both the beautiful park and the absolute disaster on the other side of the fence - otherwise people will want to defend what they have.

That's really what it comes down to. You can't get people to support change when they see they are living in the best place that has ever existed for humans, not when they see how those sorts of ideas have worked out for multiples of the entire Australian population today.

 

[Taylor]

You'd really have to pick your monarch to make that true. And go waaaayyy back to people dwelling in huts.

Are you so blinded to the luxury of turning on the tap and having water safe to drink, turning on the power switch and the light goes on that you can't even see how good you have it?

Sending your daughters off to school to learn to read, having the ability to read yourself and earning more in a week than most people would dream of earning in a year that have ever existed on this planet.

 

[Chief]

Are you so blinded to the luxury of turning on the tap and having water safe to drink, turning on the power switch and the light goes on that you can't even see how good you have it?

KINGS?

You reckon Louis XIV had fewer servants than I did? Ate worse food? It's possible I suppose...

There's no doubt we have it better than most people in the world TODAY when it comes to basics, let alone KINGS OF YORE. But that is not the same for everyone in this country. One or two people (SHOCK!) have no homes. Live in their car if they are lucky. Suffer from diseases that most don't have to contend with, live shorter lives on average, have little or no access to medical care.

Enjoying the privileges of modern engineering and medicine doesn't disqualify a person from pointing out the problems that do exist, that are getting worse over time.

 

[owen87]

Sending your daughters off to school to learn to read, having the ability to read yourself and earning more in a week than most people would dream of earning in a year that have ever existed on this planet.

Be grateful Chief that your daughters gets to learn how to read. How dare you complain.

 

[Syd]

Some of us or our parents weren't born in Australia.

Some of us not even born here.

 

[Taylor]

Be grateful Chief that your daughters gets to learn how to read. How dare you complain.

We should be grateful for the lovely things Australia provides that aren't available for most of human kind in our entire existence. We didn't get here by accident.

 

[Taylor]

KINGS?

You reckon Louis XIV had fewer servants than I did? Ate worse food? It's possible I suppose...

There's no doubt we have it better than most people in the world TODAY when it comes to basics, let alone KINGS OF YORE. But that is not the same for everyone in this country. One or two people (SHOCK!) have no homes. Live in their car if they are lucky. Suffer from diseases that most don't have to contend with, live shorter lives on average, have little or no access to medical care.

Enjoying the privileges of modern engineering and medicine doesn't disqualify a person from pointing out the problems that do exist, that are getting worse over time.

And going off on a tangent to avoid a quiet respectful nod to how good life has been in Australia to have avoided war and economic disaster that other parts of the world have gone through during the last generation makes you seem quite dogmatic.

Can we get better, I would hope so. But we have to respect that we didn't get to the peak of human existence by accident and some things have worked. Really worked.

Australia is worth protecting.

 

[Chief]

avoided war and economic disaster

We did have a little Global Financial Catastrophe in the late 00's that you might not have heard about.

So we are left with: we have not had a war in this country in this generation.

Apart from frontier wars, when have we ever had a war in this country?

Do you mean World War?

 

[owen87]

We should be grateful for the lovely things Australia provides that aren't available for most of human kind in our entire existence. We didn't get here by accident.

Yes, shut up and don't complain, starving children in Africa are worse off.

The catchcry of the conservative.

 

[Taylor]

We did have a little Global Financial Catastrophe in the late 00's that you might not have heard about.

So we are left with: we have not had a war in this country in this generation.

Apart from frontier wars, when have we ever had a war in this country?

Do you mean World War?

We haven't been bombed or otherwise had to worry about another country trying to kill us for almost 100 years. We've barely had a recession in my entire lifetime.

It's been a very good place to be and a very good time.

 

[Taylor]

Yes, shut up and don't complain, starving children in Africa are worse off.

The catchcry of the conservative.

Ignore all the wonderful things our way of life has afforded us here and ignore all the bad things that happened in other places that went different directions so that we can complain about the best place in the world.

The call to action of the progressives.

 

[owen87]

Ignore all the wonderful things our way of life has afforded us here and ignore all the bad things that happened in other places that went different directions so that we can complain about the best place in the world.

The call to action of the progressives.

Sweet strawman.

Not reflective of reality though. People are saying 'here are some problems, we could probably do something about them' and your response is 'yeah but wars overseas'.

Never change Taylor, like the good little conservative you are.

 

[raskolnikov]

Australia is not the best place in the world. That's just patriotism like the Americans do. I've been to over 40 countries. Quite a few I would live before Australia: the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Austria, the Czechia, Slovenia for a few.

 

[Chief]

We haven't been bombed or otherwise had to worry about another country trying to kill us for almost 100 years.

"Another country trying to kills us". I don't get what that means.

We did have that Bali bombing, I suppose. I can't remember if that was an anti-Australian thing off the top of my head.

We've barely had a recession in my entire lifetime.

I don't know how old you are but we've had a few in mine.

Now: as I said, the "paradise" thing is not uniform for all people. They are not living better than kings of old, not even better than peasants of old, some people.

Poverty, abuse, shorter life spans, have been a fixture in some sections of society at all times during my lifetime. And yours. It's strange that you won't admit it, or think your hot and cold running water is a consolation for someone else dying at 50 of treatable and preventable diseases.

 

[raskolnikov]

I have a friend who wakes up screaming from nightmares about Vietnam most nights almost 50 years later.