Opinion Butcher

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The gun KPFs of the comp as I see it are

Roughead
Franklin
Cloke
Schulz
Walker
Kennedy
Pavlich
Cameron
Riewoldt
Riewoldt

That's it. It's not even 1 per team. What sort of output are the people calling for Butcher to be traded expecting after no preseasons and constant injury issues?

What 22 year old or under KPFs bar Cameron are doing significantly better even without injury?

Jack Darling I'll give you.

Sam Reid is barely okay in a very good side.

Charlie Dixon is okay.

People are asking way too much from a guy who has struggled with injury. He has to be given time.
 
Its not giving butcher time I am worried about...


The guy can't kick.....he is paid to kick goals...I don't believe at this stage you could correct butchers kicking..maybe a little but not as significantly which he needs.

Ahh well in the end though butch is all we got unless big red comes on
 

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Neither can Cloke.

And kicking can absolutely be taught at this late a stage. Especially over a preseason when his ball drop is the biggest issue.
 
Get Barry Cable - or Russell Ebert to teach him how to do stab kicks or drop kicks. if you can do those kicks then doing drop punts properly is a piece of piss.

 
El_Scorcho said:
Neither can Cloke.

And kicking can absolutely be taught at this late a stage. Especially over a preseason when his ball drop is the biggest issue.
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Cloke ....

I ain't even going to go down the track of cloke and butch....otherwise I will be bumpin my graveyard thread

I hope they can fix butchers kicking because he seems like a confidence player
 
But then again jimmy stynes learned how to kick...though jimmy didn't have an afl style of kicking engraved into him from young...and the irish guys seem to be decent kicks when they learn with an oval ball
 
Short memories. Butch kicked something like 19 or 20 goals at AFL level in a row before he kicked his second behind. He can absolutely kick when he's in the right frame of mind.

The challenge is the catch 22 of how to improve a confidence player. He needs to play well to get his confidence up, but he needs his confidence up to play well.
 
Schulzenfest said:
Short memories. Butch kicked something like 19 or 20 goals at AFL level in a row before he kicked his second behind. He can absolutely kick when he's in the right frame of mind.

The challenge is the catch 22 of how to improve a confidence player. He needs to play well to get his confidence up, but he needs his confidence up to play well.
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No I remember him kicking that...I remember it well....I still thought he couldn't kick..
 
Then you should watch Moneyball. If the ball goes through the goals, he can kick. Give me 20 John Butcher shanks through the goals than 20 Chris Yarran silky smooth behinds any day of the week.
 
Schulzenfest said:
Then you should watch Moneyball. If the ball goes through the goals, he can kick. Give me 20 John Butcher shanks through the goals than 20 Chris Yarran silky smooth behinds any day of the week.
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But...i knew watching him he wouldnt hold that ratio....i just knew with the way he was kicking...

I am pretty sure before he was drafted it wasa huge critisim of him, everyone knew it...then he kicks some ridiculous ratio of goals to points and its all fixed nothing to worry about....yeah nah....


I like butch he is still very young but people should be able to be critical of him from what he's done for the moment....I understand he has had injuries and that its why I don't mind persisting with him...

The only thing that has me worried is his kicking...it might work out to be a non issue...but latest results have shown even in sanfl he is prone to the shank ....
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Get Barry Cable - or Russell Ebert to teach him how to do stab kicks or drop kicks. if you can do those kicks then doing drop punts properly is a piece of piss.

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Yeah, when my coach virtually put a ban on drop kicks back in 73 I was relieved because I couldn't kick a decent droppie to save myself. All the guys who could do a decent droppie were great at drop punts and screwies. I think that the style and control required would help anyone improve.
 

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Schulzenfest said:
Then you should watch Moneyball. If the ball goes through the goals, he can kick. Give me 20 John Butcher shanks through the goals than 20 Chris Yarran silky smooth behinds any day of the week.
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Butcher's set shot is awful, he was kicking them because he was full of confidence, and probably quite lucky. I don't want to have to rely on him having a lucky run in front of goal for us to get a good return out of him. The fact he is at best 50-50 from 20m out directly in front says absolutely everything.

I remember being very excited about Butcher in 2011 after he took some very nice marks and managed to kick straight, I also thought his attack on the man was brilliant. Since then he has started dropping marks, stopped getting lucky with his goal kicking, and doesn't chase as much as he used to. 2 YEARS and he has actually only gone backwards (okay he has put on weight?). Yes he is young and does have some innate talent, but there is very little to suggest he will make it IMO. How hard do you think it will be for us to recruit a better forward, and how long before Shaw or Clurey overtake him? I'd play Redden ahead of him.
 
Lurk3r said:
Butcher's set shot is awful, he was kicking them because he was full of confidence, and probably quite lucky. I don't want to have to rely on him having a lucky run in front of goal for us to get a good return out of him. The fact he is at best 50-50 from 20m out directly in front says absolutely everything.

I remember being very excited about Butcher in 2011 after he took some very nice marks and managed to kick straight, I also thought his attack on the man was brilliant. Since then he has started dropping marks, stopped getting lucky with his goal kicking, and doesn't chase as much as he used to. 2 YEARS and he has actually only gone backwards (okay he has put on weight?). Yes he is young and does have some innate talent, but there is very little to suggest he will make it IMO. How hard do you think it will be for us to recruit a better forward, and how long before Shaw or Clurey overtake him? I'd play Redden ahead of him.
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Do you remember Lade pre injury and how far backwards he went after injury when he lost his leap, mobility etc. Here is a clue, Primus was our No 1 ruckman and at one stage French was ahead of Lade in the pecking order. Are we glad we stuck with him? The answer is a big yes.
Butcher has had problems with his hips ==> leap, mobility, kicking etc. Give him time.
 
Comsidering Butch's kicking style wont be reliable up front I am all for the idea of seeing if he can cut it as a KPD/Switch (Harry Taylor like). He is defensively quite sound, attacks the ball well, is good at ground level, has a good running kick and a decent hand ball.
If we play Redden and Lobbe rotating forward and Shaw starts to break into the team, who knows, it might be just what we need, while draftees come upto speed.
 
I was watching ESPN First Take earlier this year, and some trainer was discussing Tim Tebow's throwing action. Tebow can't throw for s**t the same way Butcher can't kick. Anyway, the guy was saying that in order to get muscle memory, you need to do 1000 movements of the new style before it becomes inherent. How many times has John kicked for goal this year?

This preseason, apart from fitness work, when it comes to skills, that's all I'd have him doing. Every session, at least 50 kicks at goal...with the objective not to get the goal, but to get the technique right. When Tiger Woods changed his stroke, he started off playing worse, because his body wasn't used to it. But then it became second nature.

I have faith.
 
Janus said:
I was watching ESPN First Take earlier this year, and some trainer was discussing Tim Tebow's throwing action. Tebow can't throw for s**t the same way Butcher can't kick. Anyway, the guy was saying that in order to get muscle memory, you need to do 1000 movements of the new style before it becomes inherent. How many times has John kicked for goal this year?

This preseason, apart from fitness work, when it comes to skills, that's all I'd have him doing. Every session, at least 50 kicks at goal...with the objective not to get the goal, but to get the technique right. When Tiger Woods changed his stroke, he started off playing worse, because his body wasn't used to it. But then it became second nature.

I have faith.
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movements or hours.

General rule of thumb is most champions have performed a particular skill 10 000 times before it is a muscle reflex. Under pressure, when the big games are on the one thing you can count on is pressure. Its at this time when most, usually suffering fatigue, revert to what their muscles 'know best'.

Kicking for goal however is the one skill in our game which allows the player to more easily overcome the need to revert to their muscle memory. Generally they have 30 seconds to calm themselves, take a physical break (less fatigue) and concentrate on their routine. Its the last thing J-Bu should be concentrating on over this preseason. He needs to get his body right. 100% the MOST important thing he can do. If he is confident in his body the rest will come.
 
You guys are correct about changing butchers kicking style to the correct one. It's needed for him to become reliable. The thing I don't know if our coaching staff believe that. If you go back to watch him kick in the juniors to how he kicks now there doesn't seem to be any noticeable difference in kicking action. As though he hasn't been trying to change it. You should notice the action get smoother over the years.
 
Schulzenfest said:
Short memories. Butch kicked something like 19 or 20 goals at AFL level in a row before he kicked his second behind. He can absolutely kick when he's in the right frame of mind.

The challenge is the catch 22 of how to improve a confidence player. He needs to play well to get his confidence up, but he needs his confidence up to play well.
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And how many of those kicks were set shots?? he kicked a lot of those early goals on the run or snaps. his problem is his ball drop and confidence. those terrible shanks against geelong, he was holding the ball like he was trying to strangle it.
 
stanmack said:
Yeah, when my coach virtually put a ban on drop kicks back in 73 I was relieved because I couldn't kick a decent droppie to save myself. All the guys who could do a decent droppie were great at drop punts and screwies. I think that the style and control required would help anyone improve.
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I have vague recollections as a kid in the late 70's and early 80s trying to learn to drop kick and being told by my Dad and others that it was obsolete. I don't remember it being used in the SANFL by then- in the 60's perhaps?

That video of Cable is just remarkable, by the way. YouTube is a marvellous thing.
 
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