Opinion Cameron Guthrie

[Partridge]

Except I never said he was amazing, or that he's going to be a superstar. In fact, my 'massive rant' ended with how unfair it is to compare any small Geelong defender to Enright. All I did was defend his performance when people decided to resurrect this thread to say how much he battled, how woefully out of form he is and so on. He did his job, as he has done all season. So how is my post 'a classic example' of people saying that he was amazing, or that he's going to be a superstar?

'Guthrie got torn a new one by Lindsay Thomas...' look at the summary of his game on page 1 and get back to us. One Thomas goal from a very soft high contact free kick. From memory he got another one when Kelly infringed against his opponent and Thomas took the advantage for a cheap open goal. He finished with three. And that's the leader for the Coleman Medal right now, incidentally.

My point about the under-appreciated lock down defenders is that when you look back on Geelong's 2007-11 period, how many premiership players have we had that fit that description? Maybe Lonergan and that's about it? A whole generation of Geelong supporters have grown up with Milburn, Enright, Hunt, Mackie, Scarlett, Taylor, Wojcinski and Sanderson so it's no wonder that they expect our defenders to get 15-20 disposals and constantly be running the ball out of defence. Thurlow looks like he's in that mold too. That's great, but I see the Thurlow types and Guthrie types (in the role that they play now) as being complementary in our defence. People may not have an opinion about Patfull, but I bet everyone has an opinion about Pearce Hanley, right? What does that tell you?

This thread got rehashed by people saying how rubbish he was yesterday. And people (like me) have responded as best we can, since most of us are completely baffled at how people arrived at that conclusion. How do you think he went yesterday?

A problem I see with this board is that some people form a negative attitude towards a player and will then defend it to the death, because they don't want to be wrong. It's what David King did with his Geelong prediction in 2011, where he just had to cling on to the hope that someone would knock us off, because he'd reached the point of no return. No-one likes to be wrong. But I'd rather be wrong and have a player on our squad succeed, than be right and watch him fail. So, if I say Billie Smedts was awful yesterday and that he should probably go back to the VFL, what happens if he stays in the side and kicks four against Brisbane? Am I angry about being wrong? Hell, no. If Murdoch earns a recall for the weekend's game ahead of (as I saw it) more worthy candidates and then plays a very good game (as he did)? Well, good on him.

Awesome, awesome post. Absolutely worthy to quote the whole thing.

You're completely right about being wrong. No one likes it, and fewer admit to it. I'm wrong all the time (surprise, surprise). I wouldn't have picked Murdoch yesterday, but to his credit he kicked 3, showed stronger marking than I thought he's ever displayed at senior level, laid 7 tackles, and I'd argue more than did his job. Good on him and that's why none of us - NONE - are experts although we all think we are.

For some bizarre reason, every opinion now seems to have be at extremes. I can't recall anyone saying Guthrie would be a superstar; the consensus opinion I seem to have seen is that we think he's going to become a very good player for us. That's exactly how I feel. After 27 games I reckon he's progressing nicely. But apparently to some, every week he's rubbish. I'm afraid I don't understand that line of thinking.

And the myopia regarding him (and certainly Brown) to older players is striking. Just about every player on our list was either as bad or worse at the same stage. Every one of them. Except maybe Selwood. But apparently, some players - certainly not the favourites - have to deliver at the top level instantly. To me that's hypocritical.

 

[Partridge]

You can add Murdoch into this list as well. He's been thrown all over the place - backline, forward and outside mid. Played as a 'small' forward yesterday - best game of the year. I prefer him there to Smedts - He's taller, faster, and seems to be a more accurate kick.

I wish people would keep this in perspective when judging the youngsters. THunt was originally a back pocket who has learned to play in midfield, Brown is a forward now learning how to defend and Guthrie was a midfielder now playing in the backline, who tagged Ablett pretty effectively in the Gold Coast game.

No one from the early 2000's drafts (Bartel, Enright, etc) had to learn to be this versitile.

None of them were any better either.

 

[Partridge]

Good points but I feel Guthrie and Murda have been poles apart this year. Guthrie has been far more consistent with his efforts over the distance - Murda flashed great at the start but really fell away.... Guthrie never got noticed as flashy but never faded out either...

Both will go the duration however i agree there...

Go Catters

Pretty much how I see it. But, to be fair Murdoch took his chance yesterday and grabbed it. Has to play against Brisbane and similar contributions will keep him in the side. Good on him.

 

[dazbroncos]

Pretty much how I see it. But, to be fair Murdoch took his chance yesterday and grabbed it. Has to play against Brisbane and similar contributions will keep him in the side. Good on him.

Agreed... probably should have added that Murda flashed very bright yesterday.... first time like that since Rd 1....
Very impressive nonetheless for under 20 games....

Go Catters

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Guthrie is a true solid defender and just does the simple things consistently right.

Very much a valuable addition to our 22.

Might have a battle with Josh Hunt still in terms of balance for the side and whether we choose to play two relatively smaller defenders.

However, in my opinion has developed beautifully into a type of player we really need at moment.

 

[Cattery]

It's the twighlight zone in here.

Amen to that, seems it's impossible to have a rational debate on the merits of individual young players, they're either spuds or emerging superstars who can do no wrong.

Don't get me wrong I think he's solid, a decent prospect, developing in to a solid footballer But this opinion is somehow seen as deluded hate on a "future leader" and "superstar" of the club. WTF?

Yeah but that's because you have the intelligence of cold porridge though mate.

Seriously though, that sums him up an a nutshell, an emerging player who hasn't done a lot wrong since being towelled up against Richmond, where he conceded four goals (good chance it would have been five if Newman didn't go ballistic on Selwood) who will hopefully have a long and productive career in the hoops.

At the moment he's borderline best 22 when/if we have a full squad to choose from, don't see a spot for both him and Hunt and going on what Josh has shown since his return he's fairly clearly the better option.

 

[Willo_]

Sorry was working off memory. IT was 2 by Martin. 3 by King. And I just went to the AFL website and checked.

1st Goal. King roves Mackie spoil on Reiwoldt who's one out. Guthrie chasing King clearly his opponent.
2nd Goal. King wins free kick goal and from just inside 50. Guthrie was his clearly his opponent
3rd Goal. Reiwoldt stabs into Martins, Guthrie was clearly chasing the lead as his opponent
4th goal. Martin marks one on one in the goal score. Directly contesting Guthrie
5th goal. King for Richmonds last goal in the game. Guthrie chasing can't get in range to smother.

Go check yourself.
http://www.afl.com.au/video/smart-replay/?round=CD_R201301406&matchId=CD_M20130140605

It's interesting to read that... as My impression from being at the game was that Guthrie was really good... and actually saved or arse quite a few times taking some really good string overhead marks when the tiger's were on a roll... one of my mate's who is a neutral and came along actually commented saying he is keeping you guys close...

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Good points but I feel Guthrie and Murda have been poles apart this year. Guthrie has been far more consistent with his efforts over the distance - Murda flashed great at the start but really fell away.... Guthrie never got noticed as flashy but never faded out either...

Both will go the duration however i agree there...

Go Catters

murdoch was a great selection this weekend in my opinion, he was directly replacing motlop and was given a similar role, we needed his pace to be able to finish off the chain links and burst into the forward 50 and hit the scoreboard, he did this well kicking 3 goals.

i would have questioned the selection a little if we brought in someone slower for motlop as we needed him to be replaced with a bit of leg speed

 

[Cattery]

It's amazing that Guthrie is able to maintain his place in the team if he's as hopeless as some are saying and has all of these bags of goals kicked on him.

Not a particularly convincing argument CE, we haven't had anywhere near our best team on the paddock at any stage this year, and Hunt has just returned from injury, if he (Guthrie) couldn't get a regular game under those circumstances it wouldn't say much for his ability.

 

[DanA]

It's amazing that Guthrie is able to maintain his place in the team if he's as hopeless as some are saying and has all of these bags of goals kicked on him.

So i'm guessing you checked the footage and realized you were wrong so have now resorted to sticking your fingers in your ears are singing loudly to yourself......deluded if you think it didn't happen.

As for why he continues to get a game....Injuries, suspension and a lack of small defenders have played their part. As I said in an earlier post, he's been fortunate to get as many development games as he has when compared to Hyphen and Caddy.

 

[catempire]

Not a particularly convincing argument CE, we haven't had anywhere near our best team on the paddock at any stage this year, and Hunt has just returned from injury, if he (Guthrie) couldn't get a regular game under those circumstances it wouldn't say much for his ability.

I can live with it not convincing you mate.

The fact is, he hasn't been dropped after playing 7 straight. If you don't think that says something about how the MC views a 20 year old, I won't try to waste any time convincing you.

 

[catempire]

So i'm guessing you checked the footage and realized you were wrong so have now resorted to sticking your fingers in your ears are singing loudly to yourself......deluded if you think it didn't happen.

As for why he continues to get a game....Injuries, suspension and a lack of small defenders have played their part. As I said in an earlier post, he's been fortunate to get as many development games as he has when compared to Hyphen and Caddy.

No, you are either ignoring what I posted above or deliberately trying to mischievous. I told you, I have debunked this fallacy previously and don't care to do it again.

If you honestly watched the footage and thought it was conclusive that Guthrie had five goals kicked on him, then I've overrated you as a poster (including, IIRC, nominating you as poster of the year one season!).

 

[Cattery]

I can live with it not convincing you mate.

The fact is, he hasn't been dropped after playing 7 straight. If you don't think that says something about how the MC views a 20 year old, I won't try to waste any time convincing you.

And that's an even less convincing reply CE.

I don't need convincing by the way, reckon he's playing well enough to hold his spot, whether that will be the case with a full squad to choose from remains to be seen, and that's the point I was making.

 

[DanA]

It's interesting to read that... as My impression from being at the game was that Guthrie was really good... and actually saved or arse quite a few times taking some really good string overhead marks when the tiger's were on a roll... one of my mate's who is a neutral and came along actually commented saying he is keeping you guys close...

Well five goals were kicked on him. That's simply not up for debate, it clearly happened if you check the footage. I encourage you to do so. The AFL post game app is great it takes about 20 seconds if you click on the goals of King and Martin. I don't actually think he was terrible that game but I brought it up in the post mortem when people were calling his game brilliant and giving him votes, I didn't think he deserved them and gave my reasons. Again he's not a bad player but it just feels the weight of glowing reports consistently far exceed what's happening and it's making me appear far more negative about a player I think is solid.

 

[dazbroncos]

murdoch was a great selection this weekend in my opinion, he was directly replacing motlop and was given a similar role, we needed his pace to be able to finish off the chain links and burst into the forward 50 and hit the scoreboard, he did this well kicking 3 goals.

i would have questioned the selection a little if we brought in someone slower for motlop as we needed him to be replaced with a bit of leg speed

I added to Partridge later that yesterday was his best game since Rd1... another flash as I put it...

Go Catters

 

[DanA]

No, you are either ignoring what I posted above or deliberately trying to mischievous. I told you, I have debunked this fallacy previously and don't care to do it again.

If you honestly watched the footage and thought it was conclusive that Guthrie had five goals kicked on him, then I've overrated you as a poster (including, IIRC, nominating you as poster of the year one season!).

This seriously has me tearing my hair out. It's crystal clear and will take you less than two minutes to check.

 

[Willo_]

Well five goals were kicked on him. That's simply not up for debate, it clearly happened if you check the footage. I encourage you to do so. The AFL post game app is great it takes about 20 seconds if you click on the goals of King and Martin. I don't actually think he was terrible that game but I brought it up in the post mortem when people were calling his game brilliant and giving him votes, I didn't think he deserved them and gave my reasons. Again he's not a bad player but it just feels the weight of glowing reports consistently far exceed what's happening and it's making me appear far more negative about a player I think is solid.

Was I debating it? I went to the game and live thought he played well...if I did then others probably also did thus people giving him votes

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Well five goals were kicked on him. That's simply not up for debate, it clearly happened if you check the footage. I encourage you to do so. The AFL post game app is great it takes about 20 seconds if you click on the goals of King and Martin. I don't actually think he was terrible that game but I brought it up in the post mortem when people were calling his game brilliant and giving him votes, I didn't think he deserved them and gave my reasons. Again he's not a bad player but it just feels the weight of glowing reports consistently far exceed what's happening and it's making me appear far more negative about a player I think is solid.

just want to clear up what your overall opinion of guthrie is

1. how good do you think he has been this year? also what was your expectation coming into 2013

2. how good a player do you think he will be in his prime?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

And that's an even less convincing reply CE.

I don't need convincing by the way, reckon he's playing well enough to hold his spot, whether that will be the case with a full squad to choose from remains to be seen, and that's the point I was making.

He's not on his own there.

Assuming we have a fully-fit squad (besides Menzel) to choose from, here's the unquestioned locks in our best 22, as I see it:

Bartel, Mackie, Varcoe, Taylor, Kelly, Lonergan, Selwood, T.Hunt, Johnson, Duncan, Hawkins, Stokes, Christensen, Podsiadly, Motlop, Chapman, Enright

That's 17 spots, that I don't think can be reasonably argued about. Another two to be taken by McIntosh/West/Vardy/Blicavs/Simpson/Walker. And Brown, Smedts, J.Hunt, Corey, Schroder, Murdoch, Caddy, Rivers (I just can't lock him in at this stage, given the season he's had), Guthrie, Horlin-Smith, Sheringham, Thurlow, Stringer and Burbury to fight over the remaining three. That leaves some pretty decent players on the outside, looking in.

 

[Partridge]

Agreed... probably should have added that Murda flashed very bright yesterday.... first time like that since Rd 1....
Very impressive nonetheless for under 20 games....

Go Catters

Absolutely. Consider who haven't yet played 20 games for us:

- Murdoch
- Vardy
- Stringer
- Brown
- Horlin-Smith
- Thurlow
- Schroder
- Blicavs

I'm sure I've missed some. Here's the bad news, every one of them is going to play some shocking games for us in the near future. Won't get enough of the ball, won't provide enough run, will make mistakes. That's going to happen. The question is, will they be better after another 20-30 games? You bet. I don't know if any will be superstars, but I'm quietly confident they'll all become at least decent footballers for us. I can live with short term errors.

It isn't a coincidence than Duncan and Christensen (plus Taylor Hunt when he's there) are so much more reliable now. They've played up to 50 games more. It makes an enormous difference and shouldn't be forgotten or underestimated.

 

[Partridge]

At the moment he's borderline best 22 when/if we have a full squad to choose from, don't see a spot for both him and Hunt and going on what Josh has shown since his return he's fairly clearly the better option.

But remember, it isn't necessarily a straight swap between them either. Last year both played 18 games. So it's not like you can't play them at the same time.

 

[DanA]

just want to clear up what your overall opinion of guthrie is

1. how good do you think he has been this year? also what was your expectation coming into 2013

2. how good a player do you think he will be in his prime?

1. I think he's been consistently a 6.5/10 which is good for a 20 y/o. I think around the same standard as Caddy and GHS.

2. I think he will be a good player but not great. Better than David Johnson but not going to be a star as Sanderson, Enright and Hinkley etc have been. If I was to pick a player maybe Mick Mansfeild but he's still got a long way to go.

Was I debating it? I went to the game and live thought he played well...if I did then others probably also did thus people giving him votes

I also went to the game live. Sorry if the tone came off harsh, I am not a talented writer

 

[Partridge]

He's not on his own there.

Assuming we have a fully-fit squad (besides Menzel) to choose from, here's the unquestioned locks in our best 22, as I see it:

Bartel, Mackie, Varcoe, Taylor, Kelly, Lonergan, Selwood, T.Hunt, Johnson, Duncan, Hawkins, Stokes, Christensen, Podsiadly, Motlop, Chapman, Enright

That's 17 spots, that I don't think can be reasonably argued about. Another two to be taken by McIntosh/West/Vardy/Blicavs/Simpson/Walker. And Brown, Smedts, J.Hunt, Corey, Schroder, Murdoch, Caddy, Rivers (I just can't lock him in at this stage, given the season he's had), Guthrie, Horlin-Smith, Sheringham, Thurlow, Stringer and Burbury to fight over the remaining three. That leaves some pretty decent players on the outside, looking in.

Glad we're not bowling on a flat pitch. You're seeing them well today MC.

 

[Partridge]

1. I think he's been consistently a 6.5/10 which is good for a 20 y/o. I think around the same standard as Caddy and GHS.

2. I think he will be a good player but not great. Better than David Johnson but not going to be a star as Sanderson, Enright and Hinkley etc have been. If I was to pick a player maybe Mick Mansfeild.

Yep that's about how I see it I reckon. I will say though he's shown far more (so far) than Caddy has.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

1. I think he's been consistently a 6.5/10 which is good for a 20 y/o. I think around the same standard as Caddy and GHS.

2. I think he will be a good player but not great. Better than David Johnson but not going to be a star as Sanderson, Enright and Hinkley etc have been. If I was to pick a player maybe Mick Mansfeild but he's still got a long way to go.



I also went to the game live. Sorry if the tone came off harsh, I am not a talented writer

i actually cant praise this kid enough, i think the games he has played in baring the sub ones, he has been exceptional, consistently in and under the packs doing the hard stuff, one of our best players against sydney in the middle and played similar in his other games

if it wasnt for his injury against collingwood he would still be in there