Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Tig017]

yeh nah. I think succeed means flags and these bottom out teams just don’t seem to, so why pick a failed concept? Gold Coast just another team we have the wood on

Did you forget that's exactly what your team did from 2002-2006? Alzheimer's catching up to you? Should I remind you of all the players your mob picked up in that rebuilding phase that served as the foundation for your success?

What about my team? Won 2 of the last 3 flags, and a lot of it is thanks to young talent we acquired during an extended period at the lower end of the ladder. Jack Riewoldt, Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, Alex Rance, need I continue?

Meanwhile Crazy Clarko pushes guys like Lake, S.Mitchell and Lewis out the door when they're still a quality team, seemingly on the verge of a rebuild, but then he goes and coughs up all his draft picks and future draft picks for his moneyball fantasy. Even pushes one of your better young players in Burton out the door for Wingard.

Hang on the Suns 18-22 talent is better than most clubs? What point are you trying to make? We should bottom out for a decade so we can have the same number of young players? No thanks.

Who said anything about a decade? Or even bottoming out at all? How about just not trading away good draft picks? In other words, not trading away a proven formula for the moneyball fantasy of a coach who clearly thinks too highly of himself.

Puopolo still being in your best 22 says it all really. Too old, too slow. The Gold Coast's youth ranks are absolutely, 100% miles better than Hawthorn's. It's not even up for debate.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Did you forget that's exactly what your team did from 2002-2006? Alzheimer's catching up to you? Should I remind you of all the players your mob picked up in that rebuilding phase that served as the foundation for your success?

What about my team? Won 2 of the last 3 flags, and a lot of it is thanks to young talent we acquired during an extended period at the lower end of the ladder. Jack Riewoldt, Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, Alex Rance, need I continue?

Meanwhile Crazy Clarko pushes guys like Lake, S.Mitchell and Lewis out the door when they're still a quality team, seemingly on the verge of a rebuild, but then he goes and coughs up all his draft picks and future draft picks for his moneyball fantasy. Even pushes one of your better young players in Burton out the door for Wingard.


Who said anything about a decade? Or even bottoming out at all? How about just not trading away good draft picks? In other words, not trading away a proven formula for the moneyball fantasy of a coach who clearly thinks too highly of himself.

Puopolo still being in your best 22 says it all really. Too old, too slow. The Gold Coast's youth ranks are absolutely, 100% miles better than Hawthorn's. It's not even up for debate.

Because we never had the picks to get the Rowell, Anderson, Rankine, Luko etc. The only way you get those players is to completely bottom out.

 

[Tig017]

Because we never had the picks to get the Rowell, Anderson, Rankine, Luko etc. The only way you get those players is to completely bottom out.

So what? Who said it had to be top 2 picks?

Instead of O'Meara, you may have gotten Aaron Naughton, who went a couple picks after your 2017 pick (which St Kilda had), right when you badly needed a key-defender. That's not even getting to the 3 second rounders you coughed up on top of that. This is the kind of material you can build quality young teams from, but Crazy Clarko no longer has his patience.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

So what? Who said it had to be top 2 picks?

Instead of O'Meara, you may have gotten Aaron Naughton, who went a couple picks after your 2017 pick (which St Kilda had), right when you badly needed a key-defender. That's not even getting to the 3 second rounders you coughed up on top of that. This is the kind of material you can build quality young teams from, but Crazy Clarko no longer has his patience.

No we still had a group of players with 3-5 years of good footy ahead of them and tried to build another contender while they are still around and i don't blame them for trying to. We may have gotten Naughton, or maybe we select Nick Coffield or Lochie O'brien who have shown very very little at AFL level.

Rebuilding is incredibly hard and with FA around and a solid team still around i have no issue with the club trying to win another one.

You used the Suns as a shot at our young talent when it is ridiculous because they have more than the Tigers... And the Pies, Eagles etc. It's what happens when you are at the bottom for a long time. It still doesn't guarantee anything, 2 years ago people were mocking us for our terrible list and how the Demons were about to storm right on by us and be a contender for years.

 

[Jobe Watson]

Unfortunately I think you're both right and, as much as it pains me to say it, I think it's all downhill from here for Hawthorn and it will be a rough few years.

Yep. I hate to say it but I think this Hawthorn team is in for a lean few years. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[tonygeeks]

Nice work ticking this thread over to part 2


Proud of us all fellas


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[tonygeeks]

I think big strong Jon Patton would be more useful to the US POLICE FORCE than Hawthorn.

FTFY




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[hawkman]

Looked decent in round 1 and parts of the 1st half but looked terrible in the 2nd half last night. Want to see a few more games to make a genuine judgement especially after the unusual preparation.

Do think we are too tall and slow in the backline. Ceglar had a shocker and the rest of the midfield wasn't much better. Hopefully McEvoy spends more time in the ruck. Bring in Scrimshaw and hopefully in about a month Impey and the backline will start to look better

 

[StevoBruiser]

Serious question, is it true Jordan Lewis siliconed a toupee on to his head?

 

[tonygeeks]

Duursma is going to be an absolute gun.

Nous through the roof.

Plenty saying that about Wingers in his first few years too


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[Maxabillions]

Yep. I hate to say it but I think this Hawthorn team is in for a lean few years. I hope I'm wrong.

Agreed, sadly

 

[juss]

yeh nah. I think succeed means flags and these bottom out teams just don’t seem to, so why pick a failed concept? Gold Coast just another team we have the wood on

Well it's quite simple. Hawthorn's success came from the core group or players that came from the high picks from finishing low from a number of years. Richmond recently is the same, core stars picked up from finishing low and getting good picks.

That's exactly how the draft system is intended to work, finish low, get picks, rise higher, contend, fall lower. This is the draft equalization intended cycle.

Credit to the clubs that do it and have success rather than the ones who do it and continue to fail like the Demons or maybe a Carlton.

There's no shame in admitting it, it's not complicated.

 

[fnerd]

They'll all be back after beating up on Gold Coast

I errr umm wouldn’t be so sure of that!

 

[Bunk Moreland]

how many times have you posted that? And how many times have I responded.

you can’t use early picks if you don’t actually get them

The Hawks traded out:

First rounder in 2014
First and second rounder in 2016
First and second rounder in 2017
First and second rounder in 2018

Of course they had picks. Every club gets a pick in every round. They traded them - that’s what their strategy was.

Now of course, you’re not giving them away... you get players in return. But you pay a premium at the trade table. A gun player costs one pick at the draft, or multiple picks and players in a trade.

See O’Meara and Wingard.

The exception is Mitchell which was a fantastic trade, Sydney got absolutely reamed.

 

[La Dispute]

Plenty saying that about Wingers in his first few years too

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As a forward, sure. I see Duursma as more well-rounded as a footballer.

It’s a bit beside the point though. Rather than 5-7 years of Wingard, Hawthorn could have had 10-12 years of both Burton and Duursma.

 

[ChappyUK]

Because we never had the picks to get the Rowell, Anderson, Rankine, Luko etc. The only way you get those players is to completely bottom out.

You won 4 flags from having those picks and you capitalised on the expansion clubs taking all high end talent so teams couldn't properly build their lists to compete with a list you had already solidified.

 

[StevoBruiser]

rubbish theory lions win a spoon before lethal arrived. Coach just ‘lucky?’

Lethal wasn’t spoken about like he’s some kind of magician, his players were spoken about more than him, the fab 4, Brown hailed as the next king Carey ect.
Hawthorn, all you ever here about is how incredible Clarko is. Comparing the two coaches is like, comparing Shane woewoden to Chris Judd.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Because we never had the picks to get the Rowell, Anderson, Rankine, Luko etc. The only way you get those players is to completely bottom out.

Correct or trade good players for picks

 

[Gavin Excell]

Agreed, sadly

Sadly

 

[HAPPY BUDDHA]

Ah, the classic one game write off.

Was even a full game, your season was over in 1 half.

 

[boncer34]

4 flag in 8 years? Overrated?

15

 

[4THAWN]

Was even a full game, your season was over in 1 half.

so was yours

 

[queensberryrules]

Lethal wasn’t spoken about like he’s some kind of magician, his players were spoken about more than him, the fab 4, Brown hailed as the next king Carey ect.
Hawthorn, all you ever here about is how incredible Clarko is. Comparing the two coaches is like, comparing Shane woewoden to Chris Judd.

I like both coaches. But the clarko rhetoric is OTT.

I remember Hafey doing his 4 in 8. Never got a lot of attention for being a genius, they would say it was discipline and hard work, ergo, if he stops those enforcing values he won't keep succeeding. He never won another flag despite coming close a few more times.

Contrast Clarko, because success is due to his genius which some think is a non-diminishing eternal quality (entropy anyone?), then it is a matter of time, or an inevitability, that further success will come. This minimalises Clarko's success, there are many other abilities and skills he applied apart from genius.

Listening to Lyon Healy Brown et al go on abt Clarko's inevitability to wim another flag is both ignorant of life and history and sycophantic.

 

[Pessimistic]

Lethal wasn’t spoken about like he’s some kind of magician, his players were spoken about more than him, the fab 4, Brown hailed as the next king Carey ect.
Hawthorn, all you ever here about is how incredible Clarko is. Comparing the two coaches is like, comparing Shane woewoden to Chris Judd.

a so it’s just you being triggered. I rate lethal higher myself cos not many coaches got Collingwood to a flag since tv was invented

 

[Pessimistic]

Correct or trade good players for picks

geelong hardly did that either