Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Tig017]

I'd have thought Carlton, Melbourne, Gold Coast and GWS have all had enough high draft picks over the years to guarantee at least one flag each - why haven't they?

What is it about a wide array of excellent picks you're having difficulty understanding? Perhaps I should make myself more clear.

An excellent pick does not depend on the pick selection number, but rather, how good the player turned out to be at that given selection.
Sam Mitchell at pick 36 is an excellent pick. Jack Watts at pick 1 is not an excellent pick.

Between 1999 and 2002, Geelong made a wide array of excellent picks without a single top 3 selection. That formed the core of a triple-flag winning team.

 

[Tig017]

So the Bulldogs weren't capable of winning in 2016 then - got it!!

Why are you bringing up the Bulldogs? They had a relatively young team in 2016, held together by a few quality experienced players.
Has Hawthorn drafted a single player even half as talented as Bontempelli in the last 10 years?

 

[MightyHawks]

Why are you bringing up the Bulldogs? They had a relatively young team in 2016, held together by a few quality experienced players.
Has Hawthorn drafted a single player even half as talented as Bontempelli in the last 10 years?

Well watching them in future years has shown they were incapable of winning the flag in 2016

That's your logic

I'm sorry for using your logic as brings down the intellectual level of the thread

 

[Pessimistic]

And no one has really said how a player drafted top ten is desirable, but if you trade in that player, it’s not. Quite a few of the hawks trade ins were high draft picks.

does the same thing apply to Tom lynch?

 

[Pessimistic]

Why are you bringing up the Bulldogs? They had a relatively young team in 2016, held together by a few quality experienced players.
Has Hawthorn drafted a single player even half as talented as Bontempelli in the last 10 years?

had we got the correct compo for franklin, we would probably have bontempelli. Anti hawthorn forces are rife at the afl. Take the coniglio pay off

 

[Pessimistic]

What is it about a wide array of excellent picks you're having difficulty understanding? Perhaps I should make myself more clear.

An excellent pick does not depend on the pick selection number, but rather, how good the player turned out to be at that given selection.
Sam Mitchell at pick 36 is an excellent pick. Jack Watts at pick 1 is not an excellent pick.

Between 1999 and 2002, Geelong made a wide array of excellent picks without a single top 3 selection. That formed the core of a triple-flag winning team.

so you are not arguing the thread title, just picking holes in hawthorn where you can. Geelong are 9 years since a flag, hawks are 5. Where are they failing?

 

[TylerDurden]

After several years of scrapping them, leaving you with one of the worst age 21-26 brackets in the AFL in 2022.

Haha, that's actually where most of the better players on our list sit. Sicily, Worpel, Hardwick, OMeara, Mitchell (just turned 27), Wingard, with young talent in Scrimshaw, Lewis, coming through, and even younger talent in Maginness and Day to follow.

Who are you pinning your future on? Snags Higgins and Shai Bolton?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

First and second round is ‘elite’ is it righto

Lol

Are you really that worried about the thread title?

Yeah, it’s the 40 best 18yo footballers in the country - the elite.

If you’d like to play semantics that’s fine, the premise is clear: Hawthorn made an obvious decision to start trading out draft picks for established players.

 

[Pessimistic]

Lol

Are you really that worried about the thread title?

Yeah, it’s the 40 best 18yo footballers in the country - the elite.

If you’d like to play semantics that’s fine, the premise is clear: Hawthorn made an obvious decision to start trading out draft picks for established players.

half the first 22 are draftees. It’s not unique to hawthorn either. Trading was almost dead in 2010. Free agency etc made it as common as it always was. The heaviest traders last year was the saints. Get with it. It’s the ‘ya gotta bottom out, trade out ya stars’ brigade who are left

if your club consciously takes that approach, your club could be in the cellar for a decade or two

people in here have seriously said hawthorns approach will destine them to the bottom for years. It’s the opposite in fact, yet you guys are dolling out the personal insults to such as me.

 

[Tig017]

Well watching them in future years has shown they were incapable of winning the flag in 2016

That's your logic

I'm sorry for using your logic as brings down the intellectual level of the thread

No it doesn't, stupid.

 

[Tig017]

so you are not arguing the thread title, just picking holes in hawthorn where you can. Geelong are 9 years since a flag, hawks are 5. Where are they failing?

I wouldn't bring Geelong into this discussion if I were you, because it only fuels the point made in the OP.

They too traded several first round draft picks and kept topping up, and while it's kept them in the finals for most of the decade, they've never looked like a champion team, the same way they were from 2007-2011.

Hawthorn are following suit. Crazy Clarko doesn't want to put in the hard yards anymore, he wants instant gratification. As of right now, you don't look anything like contenders, while having one of the oldest lists in the AFL.

 

[Tig017]

Haha, that's actually where most of the better players on our list sit. Sicily, Worpel, Hardwick, OMeara, Mitchell (just turned 27), Wingard, with young talent in Scrimshaw, Lewis, coming through, and even younger talent in Maginness and Day to follow.

Who are you pinning your future on? Snags Higgins and Shai Bolton?

Did it just slip your mind that I was referring to 2022? Or did your delusional Hawthorn mindset condition you to ignore any context related to what you all realize will be a very difficult time period?

As for us? We're competing for flags right now, so the future isn't particularly urgent. We didn't finish 9th last year with one of the oldest lists in the competition. We won the flag; why shouldn't we continue to capitalize on that?
What's interesting is that Jack Higgins is still a superior talent to every player you've drafted in the last 10 years except for maybe Sicily. We've also kept a strong intake of youth rolling in with the likes of Collier-Dawkins, Dow, Bolton and Stack among others, all the while winning flags. By the time Dusty, Cotch, Riewoldt have retired, we will still have a stronger contingent of youth than Hawthorn.

 

[StevoBruiser]

Buck stops with the coach.

Yes it does, and I don’t entirely agree with that. Coaches cop too much attention on either side of the coin. Ratten should never have lost his job at Carlton, and if it wasn’t for level headed support staff at Richmond, we may never have seen Dimma’s potential. Collingwood also made the right choice keeping Bucks when the temperature was applied. Carlton are the worst club for it, thinking Pagan and Malthouse will come in and part the Red Sea. List managers and talent scouts are as important as any cog in the wheel.

 

[Pessimistic]

Did it just slip your mind that I was referring to 2022? Or did your delusional Hawthorn mindset condition you to ignore any context related to what you all realize will be a very difficult time period?

As for us? We're competing for flags right now, so the future isn't particularly urgent. We didn't finish 9th last year with one of the oldest lists in the competition. We won the flag; why shouldn't we continue to capitalize on that?
What's interesting is that Jack Higgins is still a superior talent to every player you've drafted in the last 10 years except for maybe Sicily. We've also kept a strong intake of youth rolling in with the likes of Collier-Dawkins, Dow, Bolton and Stack among others, all the while winning flags. By the time Dusty, Cotch, Riewoldt have retired, we will still have a stronger contingent of youth than Hawthorn.

because you lose access to ‘elite draft picks’ it’s really what hawthorn and Geelong did. At what point should richmond start trading out good players for draft picks?

if hawthorn do go to the lower end of the ladder like you predict, they will have earlier picks than Richmond so will have superior youth than Richmond

‘why do I say that? Because over the years hawthorn have out performed Richmond in every department by any measure.

and no coach has survived a full bottom out and rebuild. Malthouse told Carlton to get stuffed when asked that. It’s not particularly crazy for a coach to not take a path which could take a decade to bear fruit

 

[TylerDurden]

Did it just slip your mind that I was referring to 2022? Or did your delusional Hawthorn mindset condition you to ignore any context related to what you all realize will be a very difficult time period?

As for us? We're competing for flags right now, so the future isn't particularly urgent. We didn't finish 9th last year with one of the oldest lists in the competition. We won the flag; why shouldn't we continue to capitalize on that?
What's interesting is that Jack Higgins is still a superior talent to every player you've drafted in the last 10 years except for maybe Sicily. We've also kept a strong intake of youth rolling in with the likes of Collier-Dawkins, Dow, Bolton and Stack among others, all the while winning flags. By the time Dusty, Cotch, Riewoldt have retired, we will still have a stronger contingent of youth than Hawthorn.

Higgins better than Worpel??

 

[Sonny Hayes]

The fact most people don’t have tig ignored is surprising to me.

 

[Gavin Excell]

The fact most people don’t have tig ignored is surprising to me.

I see he copped a one day suspension for something

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I see he copped a one day suspension for something

Well I’m shocked, I’m sure it was totally unjustified.

 

[doppleganger]

Collingwood backed their quality up, and today remain one of the best teams in the AFL.
Hawthorn did not, and based on last Friday, look an old, slow, worn out team, still depending on Puopolo.

What are you even arguing?

Collingwood were mediocre in 2014,2015,2016 and 2017. Whilst the Hawks were winning flags.

Collingwood also traded away picks for guys like Treloar, Aish, Howe, Varcoe, Greenwood instead of hitting the draft hard.

Hawthorn had one bad game, but people think they should have gone down the StKilda path of being rubbish?? Where did that get the Saints?? It is how many years in the wilderness for the Saints post 2010.

Hawks have done pretty well to remain competitive whilst transitioning out a bunch of club champions.

 

[The mighty Hawks]

I wouldn't bring Geelong into this discussion if I were you, because it only fuels the point made in the OP.

They too traded several first round draft picks and kept topping up, and while it's kept them in the finals for most of the decade, they've never looked like a champion team, the same way they were from 2007-2011.

Hawthorn are following suit. Crazy Clarko doesn't want to put in the hard yards anymore, he wants instant gratification. As of right now, you don't look anything like contenders, while having one of the oldest lists in the AFL.

Richmond crazy26?

 

[boncer34]

And you haven't wont a final in that time

And?

 

[RUNVS]

The fact most people don’t have tig ignored is surprising to me.

Most of us had no idea who he was until about 2 days ago.

 

[MightyHawks]

Look I just have a warm glow that all you people rate Hawthorn so highly that after winning more flags than anyone else in your lifetime, and having just recently won 3 flags (08 is an oldie now) - that people expect us to win so much that we are currently failing by having had a non-fourpeat

 

[TylerDurden]

And?

Well the 4 flags were won in an 8 year period. 15 years in total. Any way you skin it, it's a phenomenal coaching record and he'll go down as an all time great coach.

I'm sure you'd take 4 flags in the last 15 years right?

 

[MightyHawks]

No i do stupid.

You had some grammatical errors, but don't be so harsh on yourself.

It was up to your usual high quality contributions to the thread.