Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Ambrosia]

Nonsense. There is a combination of speed and strength that makes it a tricky role to fill. Ideally you can also kick an opportunistic goal or two each week too. We've got players at BH that have the goal sense, but some of those options lack the body maturity to provide the strength, and others that have the strength, lack the closing speed, so Poppy keeps getting a game.



That's because none of them have the attributes at this point to be better than Poppy. I agree its an issue, and as I said, I wished we'd recruited another option. I suspect we tried, as Poppy was given a contract right at the end of the trade of the period, and not before, so I reckon we were waiting to see if we could find someone. Minchington might be the closest thing we have as an option right now at Box Hill (or whatever we're calling our second tier team at the moment), the others are either too immature or too slow for the role.

Poppy has always been a bottom 5 players for us, even though he did play an important role. Pointing at a bottom 5 player on a list and saying "having a bottom 5 player getting a game in your side says something about your list" is frankly bullshit. Having a player in your top 10 that would be bottom 5 on a good team's list is a much better indicator of a list in trouble, and I don't think we have any of those.

Disagree Poppy is so cooked you’d expect any young midfielder with any reasonable amount of potential to be able to come in an at least offer a similar level of output whilst also having some upside.

The fact Puopolo is getting games is worrying for the likes of Cousins, Hanrahan, Morrison and Moore aren’t gonna make it. Hawthorn are still going ok but it’s clear they’re going to have to unearth 6-7 players by the end of 2021.

 

[hk89]

Got found out big time today by a team that’s built their lust through the draft and it showed.

I feel most opposition fans posting in this thread built their lust by watching Hawthorn lose.

What happened when we smashed GWS twice last year? I didn't see you so lusty then.

Hawks will beat the meddling sides but will get put to the sword by the top sides.... the ones built via elite talent of the draft

If it wasn't for those meddling sides ....

Did you enjoy Brisbane's elite talent putting us to the sword in round 1? I thought not.

 

[TylerDurden]

Disagree Poppy is so cooked you’d expect any young midfielder with any reasonable amount of potential to be able to come in an at least offer a similar level of output whilst also having some upside.

The fact Puopolo is getting games is worrying for the likes of Cousins, Hanrahan, Morrison and Moore aren’t gonna make it. Hawthorn are still going ok but it’s clear they’re going to have to unearth 6-7 players by the end of 2021.

Nailed it. We all know Poppy shouldn't be playing. Frustrating. Cannot believe we didn't chase Butler off season.

 

[Slysh]

Got found out big time today by a team that’s built their list through the draft and it showed.

Hawks will beat the meddling sides but will get put to the sword by the top sides.... the ones built via elite talent of the draft

Wait so when we beat good teams it’s just another win, they happen. When we lose to good teams it’s getting found out?

This thread is just filled with s**t flinging from both sides and is genuinely a worthless thread that could be brilliant for looking for better ways to rebuild a list. The idea that the AFL will only ever be waiting for a bunch of draft Picks to come good is stupid, clubs should look for ways to get around a traditional rebuild and fans should want it.

 

[hk89]

Disagree Poppy is so cooked you’d expect any young midfielder with any reasonable amount of potential to be able to come in an at least offer a similar level of output whilst also having some upside.

Poppy's pressure metrics have only gone badly down hill very recently. His goal output was down last year, but his overall pressure acts numbers were apparently not bad, and I'd guess that was keeping him in the side. As I say, I'm also disappointed he's managing to keep his spot, and I agree it doesn't say good things about our depth in this area. I disagree good pressure forwards grow on trees, and that any young athletic forward can play the role well.

The fact Puopolo is getting games is worrying for the likes of Cousins, Hanrahan, Morrison and Moore aren’t gonna make it.

The fact that you think Cousins , Hanrahan and Morrison are potential small pressure forwards that could dislodge Poppy indicates I'm right, and that you don't understand either the role or our players very well. Poppy isn't keeping Morrison and Cousins out of the side. Jones probably kept Morrison out of todays side, and the fact that we have Worpel, Shiels, JOM and Mitchell all able to play as inside mids is keeping Cousins out of the side. Cousins is playing well in the scratch matches, but we'll be in danger of losing him next year, because at this stage, he'll need to wait for injury or Shiels to retire in order to get a crack at the seniors. Hanrahan and Poppy play in the same side, because Hanrahan isn't a pressure forward's arsehole. He plays a traditional small forward role, and not well enough to keep his spot in the side at this stage. I suspect Moore is in the Hanrahan mould, I'm not sure why he hasn't got a chance over Hanrahan in the past. My concern is around how Poppy is keeping Minchington out of the side, rather than any of the names you've mentioned, which have almost nothing to do with Poppy's spot or skill set. If Impey comes back, an option is to structure up with him as the Poppy replacement, as he has the attributes, but he was very good coming off half back last year, so that may not be the preferred option.

If anything Clarko does tend to be overly loyal to guys that have performed for him in the past, but he does have its limits, and I suspect Poppy will be reaching his soon.

Hawthorn are still going ok but it’s clear they’re going to have to unearth 6-7 players by the end of 2021.

So 3 at the end of this year, 3 at the end of following year? That's probably about average for most teams best 22 turnover isn't it? Given McGuinness would probably have been a first rounder if he was going in the open draft, we have two first rounders still to debut, so that's hopefully 2 down. Jones looked ok today for a first gamer against arguably the team with the deepest midfield in the comp, but obviously too early to say if he'll cement a spot. Two more drafts and two more trade periods should be enough to do that with perhaps 1 or 2 of the hopefuls from Box Hill getting up, given a number have shown promise and waiting for spots to open up.

 

[Scotland]

I feel most opposition fans posting in this thread built their lust by watching Hawthorn lose.

This thread transcends wins and losses.

The lust of most fans is dependent on past gloatings. Unless you support Richmond in which case your lust is to make it about Richmond.

 

[Ambrosia]

Poppy's pressure metrics have only gone badly down hill very recently. His goal output was down last year, but his overall pressure acts numbers were apparently not bad, and I'd guess that was keeping him in the side. As I say, I'm also disappointed he's managing to keep his spot, and I agree it doesn't say good things about our depth in this area. I disagree good pressure forwards grow on trees, and that any young athletic forward can play the role well.



The fact that you think Cousins , Hanrahan and Morrison are potential small pressure forwards that could dislodge Poppy indicates I'm right, and that you don't understand either the role or our players very well. Poppy isn't keeping Morrison and Cousins out of the side. Jones probably kept Morrison out of todays side, and the fact that we have Worpel, Shiels, JOM and Mitchell all able to play as inside mids is keeping Cousins out of the side. Cousins is playing well in the scratch matches, but we'll be in danger of losing him next year, because at this stage, he'll need to wait for injury or Shiels to retire in order to get a crack at the seniors. Hanrahan and Poppy play in the same side, because Hanrahan isn't a pressure forward's arsehole. He plays a traditional small forward role, and not well enough to keep his spot in the side at this stage. I suspect Moore is in the Hanrahan mould, I'm not sure why he hasn't got a chance over Hanrahan in the past. My concern is around how Poppy is keeping Minchington out of the side, rather than any of the names you've mentioned, which have almost nothing to do with Poppy's spot or skill set. If Impey comes back, an option is to structure up with him as the Poppy replacement, as he has the attributes, but he was very good coming off half back last year, so that may not be the preferred option.

If anything Clarko does tend to be overly loyal to guys that have performed for him in the past, but he does have its limits, and I suspect Poppy will be reaching his soon.



So 3 at the end of this year, 3 at the end of following year? That's probably about average for most teams best 22 turnover isn't it? Given McGuinness would probably have been a first rounder if he was going in the open draft, we have two first rounders still to debut, so that's hopefully 2 down. Jones looked ok today for a first gamer against arguably the team with the deepest midfield in the comp, but obviously too early to say if he'll cement a spot. Two more drafts and two more trade periods should be enough to do that with perhaps 1 or 2 of the hopefuls from Box Hill getting up, given a number have shown promise and waiting for spots to open up.

You’re missing my point. Those players may not be slated as long term pressure forwards but the fact they aren’t seen as better options than a cooked Puopolo is worrying for their long term future as AFL players.


That’s unearthing 6 players to tread water and given I don’t have Hawthorn challenging this year I’d say they need to improve to be contending.

 

[hk89]

You’re missing my point. Those players may not be slated as long term pressure forwards but the fact they aren’t seen as better options than a cooked Puopolo is worrying for their long term future as AFL players.

I'm not missing your point. I think your point is dumb. A slow inside midfielder is NOT a better option than poppy as a pressure forward. You can't bring in another inside mid to replace Poppy without other shuffling. Yes, the lack of a replacement is an issue, the fact that someone that can't play his role isn't coming in for him is neither here nor there.

That’s unearthing 6 players to tread water and given I don’t have Hawthorn challenging this year I’d say they need to improve to be contending.

Hawthorn have lost to two of the 2019 prelim finalists (our only losses), and beaten the premier. We also beat 3 of the 4 2019 prelim finalists in the run home last year. We are the only team this year to have beaten the second favourites for the flags based on today's betting (Lions), and our loss today was against the current flag favourite , with 3 down on the bench, and the more efficient forward half performance of any team on record (which yes, might be a poor reflection on our defence as much as it is on GWS's efficiency). While we are obviously outsiders for this season, I'd say we are still in with enough of a chance, that right now is not the time to throw the toys out of the cot and go full Carlton. Given you think a slow inside mid makes a good pressure forward, I'll not be putting a lot of weight on your impressions on the state of our list.

 

[Milanista28]

Where is Glass at, I thought he showed a bit when he gets a chance?

 

[Slysh]

Where is Glass at, I thought he showed a bit when he gets a chance?

Not really, average kick with poor decision making.

Can lay a good tackle and i like that he tries to take the game on but more often than not it doesn't come off.

 

[Milanista28]

Not really, average kick with poor decision making.

Can lay a good tackle and i like that he tries to take the game on but more often than not it doesn't come off.

ObviouslyI haven't seen enough of him.

 

[maddog37]

ObviouslyI haven't seen enough of him.

it’s as if you looked straight through him!

Sorry, I’ll show myself out.

 

[Furn2]

Not if the umpires have anything to say about it.

 

[Gavin Excell]

it’s as if you looked straight through him!

Sorry, I’ll show myself out.

Top drawer material

 

[Gavin Excell]

Not if the umpires have anything to say about it.

Ah yes of course
The umpires

 

[Bradkli]

Where is Glass at, I thought he showed a bit when he gets a chance?

Will be delisted end of this season. Horrendous skills and decision making. Hasn’t developed since coming to Australia.

Hopefully Connor Nash can represent the Irish for us. Has a very long way to go but has height and pace on his side...plays as a small forward but he’s actually tall. Reckon he has 2021 to cement his place in the side else he will be joining glass back in Ireland.

 

[Milanista28]

Will be delisted end of this season. Horrendous skills and decision making. Hasn’t developed since coming to Australia.

Hopefully Connor Nash can represent the Irish for us. Has a very long way to go but has height and pace on his side...plays as a small forward but he’s actually tall. Reckon he has 2021 to cement his place in the side else he will be joining glass back in Ireland.

Thinking about it more I might be thinking of Greaves? What's his story. Just checked pre season stats and he played a decent game vs the Saints.

 

[HairyO]

Got the vibe that giving McEvoy coaches votes against North was an attempt to justify the decision to move him to defence.

Keeping one of the top forwards in the game quiet all night is probably why he gave him votes.

Where is Glass at, I thought he showed a bit when he gets a chance?

Nash is the better Irish Conor. I suspect Nash will get a game this weekend. Lots of injuries. And a couple of players badly out of form.

 

[Ambrosia]

Keeping one of the top forwards in the game quiet all night is probably why he gave him votes.

Stopping forwards is a team job these days. Did you have him near the best 5 on the ground ?

 

[HairyO]

Stopping forwards is a team job these days. Did you have him near the best 5 on the ground ?

It was an ugly game. I found it hard to find the best 3. I wasnt surprised Clarko gave Big Boy votes. He rewards players who play their role.

 

[Bradkli]

Thinking about it more I might be thinking of Greaves? What's his story. Just checked pre season stats and he played a decent game vs the Saints.

He showed decent signs during pre-season. Tough, good mark and nice skills. Thought he would play early on in the regular season...he plays a similar role to Blake Hardwick, who’s a very good player.

Unfortunately ben Stratton gets the other “small defender” spot because he’s the captain. Would rather greaves be playing.

There’s still impey to come back and jiath who also played a few games late last season who will be playing in the second half of this season.

Can’t see greaves being on the list come 2021, especially when lists are cut due to corona.

 

[TylerDurden]

Thinking about it more I might be thinking of Greaves? What's his story. Just checked pre season stats and he played a decent game vs the Saints.

He'd be behind guys like Scrimshaw, Impey and Jiath when fit. He's only 20 though.

 

[Pessimistic]

Can the Players have grandkids in the hub?

 

[Hawk Dork]

Can the Players have grandkids in the hub?

Who would have them ?

 

[bluespooner]

Ah yes of course
The umpires

No club gets smashed as much as Hawthorn does by the umpires. They already have a big lead as the club with the most free kicks handed against;26 to 12 on the weekend following a 21 to 12 smashing against north.

If Hawthorn were to get geelong's free ride from the umpires they would be close to top of the ladder; and this thread redundant.