Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[WWSD]

Lels its over. The doggies just won in 2016 and have a really good list. It’s time to rebuild. Clarko has done it beautifully before he can do it again.

Agree.

Welcome to Hawthorn pick 6.

 

[revo333]

You previously posted but now you dismiss the fact that most of the VFL clubs did not have many aboriginal players with a 'so what'.

So. lets just be kind and say you don't have much of a point about really anything in this thread.

I was answering a comment from someone else who mentioned Indigenous players to me when I was talking about Hawthorns failure to get Lynch and Coniglio.

I'm not interested in you trying to defend a no aboriginal policy.

 

[bluespooner]

I'm not interested in you trying to defend a no aboriginal policy.

There never was a 'no aboriginal policy' with most of the VFL clubs having few aboriginal players especially in comparison to the WAFL and the SANFL through the 70s and the 80s; and earlier if you like.

Hawthorn has an indigenous program and has had a regular stream of aboriginal footballers throughout the 00s and 10s; and I don't think it is a stretch to say that they have been much more progressive in this area than the Western bulldogs.

 

[revo333]

There never was a 'no aboriginal policy' with most of the VFL clubs having few aboriginal players especially in comparison to the WAFL and the SANFL through the 70s and the 80s; and earlier if you like.

Don Scott has said otherwise...

 

[TylerDurden]

looking forward to who or what clarko blames this week on hawthorns ineptness.

Interesting tho, never seemed to hear clarko whinge too much about state of the game etc when hawthorn was winning...

Reeks of a coach who’s who’s unwilling to accept his own faults

Hubris

Ah, he whinged about it after we'd just beaten North.

 

[bluespooner]

Don Scott has said otherwise...

Don Scott hey, former captain true but very much a peripheral figure on the outer at the club by his own volition. He has never coached the club or been in a position of club recruitment, so probably not the most reliable source.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

.... Clarko is stubborn though and may not change what was a brilliant strategy....

Is it stubbornness, or delusion?

Meaning, does he not identify that the reason it worked was not because the strategy was brilliant as such - but instead he had a freak team in place and they pretty much made any recruiting decision look like genius?

Is it a refusal to acknowledge that the perfect storm of players at the club at the time is the reason they were great? And not some brilliant strategy dreamt up in a Footy Dept. meeting one balmy evening in January over a bottle of red?


Sometimes these guys just refuse to accept that they're not as smart as they think are (or as smart as all the arse lickers in the media and around them tell them they are).

 

[Walshawk]

Is it stubbornness, or delusion?

Meaning, does he not identify that the reason it worked was not because the strategy was brilliant as such - but instead he had a freak team in place and they pretty much made any recruiting decision look like genius?

Is it a refusal to acknowledge that the perfect storm of players at the club at the time is the reason they were great? And not some brilliant strategy dreamt up in a Footy Dept. meeting one balmy evening in January over a bottle of red?


Sometimes these guys just refuse to accept that they're not as smart as they think are (or as smart as all the arse lickers in the media and around them tell them they are).

It was a recruitment dept philosophy that draft picks were over valued (which they were at the time) and the club took advantage of that. No one else was doing it. Perfect storm, yes. Also pretty smart I reckon.

 

[Pessimistic]

What do you mean retired? You pushed them out the door. Jordan Lewis seemed pretty unhappy about it too.
A huge sellout to the fans? To hit up the draft and score some quality youth? The same way you did from 2001-2007? Yeah I'm sure going with the exact same strategy that helped your club win 4 flags in 8 years would really upset the Hawthorn fans. Please.


I can show you statistics that show clubs who neglect the draft to the extent Hawthorn have in recent years find success exponentially hard to come by...

if success is premierships or prelims. There are always more failures, with many different strategies. Geelong for example is still quite strong 9 years after a premiership

 

[Pessimistic]

Is it stubbornness, or delusion?

Meaning, does he not identify that the reason it worked was not because the strategy was brilliant as such - but instead he had a freak team in place and they pretty much made any recruiting decision look like genius?

Is it a refusal to acknowledge that the perfect storm of players at the club at the time is the reason they were great? And not some brilliant strategy dreamt up in a Footy Dept. meeting one balmy evening in January over a bottle of red?


Sometimes these guys just refuse to accept that they're not as smart as they think are (or as smart as all the arse lickers in the media and around them tell them they are).

‘maybe they saw hawks had bottomed at the right time, even though picks were wasted in 2005 and 2006. Carlton and nmelbourne ave repeatedly tried the strategy. Has there been a buddy-rough-Lewis draft since? not even GWS or Gold Coast with a squillion early picks have done it successfully

GWS and Gold Coast have traded out a lot more than Ryan burton.

 

[Bulldog1954]

There never was a 'no aboriginal policy' with most of the VFL clubs having few aboriginal players especially in comparison to the WAFL and the SANFL through the 70s and the 80s; and earlier if you like.

It's great that Hawthorn have changed, but it is common knowledge that Hawthorn had a policy to not draft Aboriginal players. It wasn't just Don Scott that said, it, but also former recruiter John Turnbull. There was an article in the Age about it and fellow Hawthorn supporters have acknowledged it existed on this website.

Hawthorn did not have an Aboriginal player from 1965 to 1999.

Chance Bateman also said that Turnbull told him a senior figure at Hawthorn had told him not to draft anyone with skin darker than his:

Age: Hawks were racist

Hawks were racist, says former recruiter http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/rohan-connolly/hawks-were-racist-says-former-recruiter/2008/04/11/1207856835040.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 FORMER Hawthorn recruiting manager John Turnbull doesn't beat around the bush. Was Hawthorn a racist...

www.bigfooty.com

FORMER Hawthorn recruiting manager John Turnbull doesn't beat around the bush. Was Hawthorn a racist club? "There were strong undercurrents of prejudice," he says.

Turnbull, who oversaw Hawthorn's player selection from the end of 1995 to late 2003, recalls being welcomed to the Glenferrie fold by a senior figure at the club. "He said to me (pointing at his forearm): 'Good luck, John, and just remember, don't draft anyone with skin darker than mine.' "

Turnbull had previously worked at Melbourne, where he had heard a few stories about the Hawks' reluctance to draft Aboriginal players. He recalled the Demons being interested in the indigenous player David Cockatoo-Collins and he was worried that Hawthorn, which had an earlier pick, would get him first. "Don't worry," he was told by a Melbourne colleague, "Hawthorn won't pick him." They didn't...

 

[revo333]

Don Scott hey, former captain true but very much a peripheral figure on the outer at the club by his own volition. He has never coached the club or been in a position of club recruitment, so probably not the most reliable source.

Dermott Brereton has admitted it as well.

It's in the past and times have changed for the better, But no Hawthorn supporter should ever point their finger at another club for having a lack of Indigenous players on their list.

The End.

 

[Hawk_francais]

Is it stubbornness, or delusion?

Meaning, does he not identify that the reason it worked was not because the strategy was brilliant as such - but instead he had a freak team in place and they pretty much made any recruiting decision look like genius?

Is it a refusal to acknowledge that the perfect storm of players at the club at the time is the reason they were great? And not some brilliant strategy dreamt up in a Footy Dept. meeting one balmy evening in January over a bottle of red?


Sometimes these guys just refuse to accept that they're not as smart as they think are (or as smart as all the arse lickers in the media and around them tell them they are).

Normally think your posts are alright, but to suggest that Clarko’s four flags can be mostly explained by good fortune is... well it lacks depth, at least.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Normally think your posts are alright, but to suggest that Clarko’s four flags can be mostly explained by good fortune is... well it lacks depth, at least.

It wasn't luck.

It was a freak core group of players that came together at the right time that were incredibly well drilled.

That's what won them 4 flags.

Not some mythical culture, not a genius top-up strategy, not the umpires, not Jeff Kennett.

Hawthorn are doing everything the same now, as they did during the 4 flag era. The only difference is that their core group of players are average. And lo and behold, they're no longer winning.

 

[Aramis]

It wasn't luck.

It was a freak core group of players that came together at the right time that were incredibly well drilled.

That's what won them 4 flags.

Not some mythical culture, not a genius top-up strategy, not the umpires, not Jeff Kennett.

Hawthorn are doing everything the same now, as they did during the 4 flag era. The only difference is that their core group of players are average. And lo and behold, they're no longer winning.

Pretty much...

Roughead = unreplaced
Franklin = unreplaced
Hodge = unreplaced
S Mitchell = Titch
J Lewis = O'Meara
Rioli = unreplaced

Even to an extent... Birchall, Lake and Gibson. Could argue that Scrimshaw is the heir apparent to Birchall but at the time of writing he is no way near peak Birchall.

It really is no wonder.

The other aspect that is rarely spoken about is the timing, or as you put it "together at the right time", that doesn't mean being at the club at the same time, its about all the core aspects playing at their peak simultaneously. That is something our squad is lacking heavily... You've got players at all different stages of their career currently... Running out a 37-year-old Burgoyne (who is still a star) next to a 21-year-old Worpel next to a 32-year-old Puopolo... wheres the fluency going to come from?

 

[boncer34]

Pretty much...

Roughead = unreplaced
Franklin = unreplaced
Hodge = unreplaced
S Mitchell = Titch
J Lewis = O'Meara
Rioli = unreplaced

Even to an extent... Birchall, Lake and Gibson. Could argue that Scrimshaw is the heir apparent to Birchall but at the time of writing he is no way near peak Birchall.

It really is no wonder.

The other aspect that is rarely spoken about is the timing, or as you put it "together at the right time", that doesn't mean being at the club at the same time, its about all the core aspects playing at their peak simultaneously. That is something our squad is lacking heavily... You've got players at all different stages of their career currently... Running out a 37-year-old Burgoyne (who is still a star) next to a 21-year-old Worpel next to a 32-year-old Puopolo... wheres the fluency going to come from?

That's quite a good point. You probably need your core around the same age.

Hawthorn does seem to have 2 distinct halves.

 

[Pessimistic]

Yep. A core which won 4 flags. So that the definition of success as per title?
In that case, they won’t succeed

but I don’t see any other current club succeeding either on those terms. Just console yourselves with a miserable premiership or two, losers

 

[Pessimistic]

Pretty much...

Roughead = unreplaced
Franklin = unreplaced
Hodge = unreplaced
S Mitchell = Titch
J Lewis = O'Meara
Rioli = unreplaced

Even to an extent... Birchall, Lake and Gibson. Could argue that Scrimshaw is the heir apparent to Birchall but at the time of writing he is no way near peak Birchall.

It really is no wonder.

The other aspect that is rarely spoken about is the timing, or as you put it "together at the right time", that doesn't mean being at the club at the same time, its about all the core aspects playing at their peak simultaneously. That is something our squad is lacking heavily... You've got players at all different stages of their career currently... Running out a 37-year-old Burgoyne (who is still a star) next to a 21-year-old Worpel next to a 32-year-old Puopolo... wheres the fluency going to come from?

underlined that Burgoyne started his career at the hawks at an age older than the age Cyril was when he retired.

extreme case, but it’s not all about birth certificates

 

[TylerDurden]

Pretty much...

Roughead = unreplaced
Franklin = unreplaced
Hodge = unreplaced
S Mitchell = Titch
J Lewis = O'Meara
Rioli = unreplaced

Even to an extent... Birchall, Lake and Gibson. Could argue that Scrimshaw is the heir apparent to Birchall but at the time of writing he is no way near peak Birchall.

It really is no wonder.

The other aspect that is rarely spoken about is the timing, or as you put it "together at the right time", that doesn't mean being at the club at the same time, its about all the core aspects playing at their peak simultaneously. That is something our squad is lacking heavily... You've got players at all different stages of their career currently... Running out a 37-year-old Burgoyne (who is still a star) next to a 21-year-old Worpel next to a 32-year-old Puopolo... wheres the fluency going to come from?

Franklin and Rioli are once in a generation talents. Borderline irreplaceable. Having said that, I'd happily trade all our picks and Burton for Rankine after what I saw last night.

Hodge also a freak talent, but a once in a generation leader.

We're not going for like for like replacements here. You can't. Just trying to build a competitive side as quick as possible. Why wouldn't you?

 

[Hawk_francais]

It wasn't luck.

It was a freak core group of players that came together at the right time that were incredibly well drilled.

That's what won them 4 flags.

Not some mythical culture, not a genius top-up strategy, not the umpires, not Jeff Kennett.

Hawthorn are doing everything the same now, as they did during the 4 flag era. The only difference is that their core group of players are average. And lo and behold, they're no longer winning.

In 2013 and 2015 you could argue that Hawthorn won because they were the more talented and better-drilled side.

But are you suggesting that the 2008 Geelong side and the 2014 Swans side lost because of a lack of well-drilled freakish talent? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Clarko is dealing with a very different squad now but there is still plenty of talent. We may not rise to win a flag in the coming years but it won’t be because of lack of potential.

 

[Cadillac]

Bulldogs number one destination club!!!

Hey, how many indigenous players do the Bulldogs currently have?

One. Jamarra Ugle-Hagan. Going to be an absolute jet.

You guys proving to be a destination club from 2016 onwards has got you absolutely nowhere. If anything, you’ve dug yourself a deeper hole than ever before. Just topping up because your club is too arrogant to admit you’re nowhere near it.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

I'll pose the question to Hawthorn supporters.

Which players currently 21 or under do you think have the potential to become A grade players?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

In 2013 and 2015 you could argue that Hawthorn won because they were the more talented and better-drilled side.

But are you suggesting that the 2008 Geelong side and the 2014 Swans side lost because of a lack of well-drilled freakish talent? Your argument doesn’t hold up. Clarko is dealing with a very different squad now but there is still plenty of talent. We may not rise to win a flag in the coming years but it won’t be because of lack of potential.

Pretty much, yes.

I actually think Hawthorn's list was underrated really.

We saw what Hodge did at Brisbane, even as an old geezer.

Not only was Hawthorn's core incredibly talented - they actually had genuine coaches on each line.
Hodge in defence, Mitchell in the middle, and Roughead forward.

When you have that, you can bring in a new player to the system, and get them gelling almost immediately. It usually takes months.

The other thing is that due to this, Clarkson could literally develop a plan midweek and have the entire team execute it to perfection that week.

Great coach, amazing talent, freak on-field leadership. The perfect storm.


I rate Hodge as the best player ever.


Don't take this as a criticism of Clarkson. He's a great coach. But I attribute Hawthorn's success to the on-field talent moreso than the coach. And certainly more than any other off-field stuff that people like Graham Wright and Jeff Kennett try to claim credit for.

 

[RUNVS]

Not sure I will create the thread but I think a Hawthorn/Adelaide/Sydney thread would be interesting. Three traditionally strong clubs (at least in the last 20 years) that look like they are in a world of hurt either at the moment or very soon, with all three clubs seemingly having very different ways of trying to fix things.

 

[Aramis]

underlined that Burgoyne started his career at the hawks at an age older than the age Cyril was when he retired.

extreme case, but it’s not all about birth certificates

Point taken - but that would most certainly be the exception, not the norm.

Franklin and Rioli are once in a generation talents. Borderline irreplaceable. Having said that, I'd happily trade all our picks and Burton for Rankine after what I saw last night.

Hodge also a freak talent, but a once in a generation leader.

We're not going for like for like replacements here. You can't. Just trying to build a competitive side as quick as possible. Why wouldn't you?

irreplaceable to an extent, you dont need exact replicas, you just need blokes who can play a role at a competitive level. We don't have anyone that even comes close to what those blokes offered.... Whose closest to Franklin or Roughead? Lewis and Patton and they are light years off......