Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[hk89]

I repeat in over 100 years of VFL/AFL, Hawthorn has never beaten Richmond in a final

I believe you've won one more final against us than we've won against you right?

 

[Marcel Proust]

whats next?

Are we going to compare Dustin Martin to Worpel?

You know you want to

one page back

I dunno. Martin won Richmond's BnF in 2016 when they finished 13th on the ladder. Would he have gotten a game with the Western Bulldogs who were the eventual premiers? Or Sydney? Or any top performer for that year?

 

[blaisee]

one page back

touche

 

[hk89]

You do realise that's also an indictment on Hawthorn's midfield quality rather than praise of Worpel....

It is both. Worpel stepped up without the support of our best mid, and helped us beat 3 of the 4 preliminary finalists. For a 20 year old to take on that responsibility in the absence of our best mid, and thus make himself a target for tags *IS* praise of Worpel. It is easy to look good as a kid when you're supported by a star studded midfield unit that takes the opposition heat off you. That's not what Worpel was doing. He stood into Mitchell's shoes, and was doing a decent job of it by season end. Apparently he's obsessed with self improvement, so I'd expect him to continue his improvement trajectory next year too.

 

[KermitJagger]

one page back

Comparing situations, not players. When you're using the fact that a B&F is won in a bottom side to detract from one player, you can't just ignore it as a negative for others.

Clearly the point is, that it's not at all a negative. Dustin Martin is a great player.

 

[juss]

It is both. Worpel stepped up without the support of our best mid, and helped us beat 3 of the 4 preliminary finalists. For a 20 year old to take on that responsibility in the absence of our best mid, and thus make himself a target for tags *IS* praise of Worpel. It is easy to look good as a kid when you're supported by a star studded midfield unit that takes the opposition heat off you. That's not what Worpel was doing. He stood into Mitchell's shoes, and was doing a decent job of it by season end. Apparently he's obsessed with self improvement, so I'd expect him to continue his improvement trajectory next year too.

Of course he'll improve, no one has said he isn't any good, it's just comparing players to others.

 

[WWSD]

Didn't Burton finish 2nd or 3rd in the Hawks B and F in his second season as well?

That was Blake Hardwick who finished runner up.

 

[KermitJagger]

Of course he'll improve, no one has said he isn't any good, it's just comparing players to others.

I agree, I don't like to compare players as they're all different. Worpel in terms of performance is in the same handful of players as Taranto in a similar age bracket, which isn't an insult. Taranto will be a very good footballer.

 

[blaisee]

An interesting theory going around is that maybe Worpel was given the best and fairest to increase his trade value like they did to Burton

Now this would be genius and should not be discounted

 

[WWSD]

I'll give you that for sure as likely an influencing factor. This is a very intelligent response that's considering a few factors, a lot better than some of the other stuff posted.


You do realise that's also an indictment on Hawthorn's midfield quality rather than praise of Worpel....

Do you think Worpel would be tagged in the Giants, Tigers, Pies or Cats teams? No, because they have better players.

And I haven't once said Worpel is no good, he is. Just Taranto is better.

For now.

 

[WWSD]

middle of the road club, few decent pickups might scrape them in the 8 but they will never be a premiership team with this playing group... I see clubs like St Kilda as a club who ignores the draft for the next few years and really benefit from it with a top 4 finish next season

I didn’t realise Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis were still at Hawthorn. I can guarantee you 100% that Hawthorn will finish above St Kilda again.

 

[KermitJagger]

An interesting theory going around is that maybe Worpel was given the best and fairest to increase his trade value like they did to Burton

Now this would be genius and should not be discounted

An interesting theory that almost completely discounts the fact that he was our most consistent player and deserved the award.

 

[HeHateMe]

This is terribly overrating Worpel.
If given the choice between the 2 no one is taking Worpel over Taranto right now. He might get there eventually but that's speculation and Taranto still has improvement too.

No one is picking Worpel over Taranto, Hawks would make that trade tomorrow.

They are 1, 2 for best young inside bulls in the competition.

Comparison is perfectly fine and I'm not overrateing anything. Anychance you're underrateing worps?
Nahhh of course not.
Agree to disagree.

Edit: typo fixes.

 

[Back One Out]

Comparison is perfectly find and I'm not overeating anything. Anychance your underrateing worps?

 

[QuietB]

Almost as if hawks fans overrated worps due to a lack of young talent on the list? Ignoring the elite end of the draft all these years.

If the elite end of the draft is so valuable why are you letting Brandon Ellis walk for free?

 

[blaisee]

If the elite end of the draft is so valuable why are you letting Brandon Ellis walk for free?

honest question.

How old are you ?

 

[QuietB]

honest question.

How old are you ?

Depends if I was honest or not

 

[RUNVS]

Hawthorn have some pretty big holes on their list, which is actually quite a good thing because if they fix those holes they are going to be a very good team. Much better than Melbourne for instance which on paper don't have many holes and yet are a terrible side nonetheless. Much harder to fix that.

 

[KermitJagger]

Richmond fans chiming in about the elite end of the draft when their premiership team comprised of only 5 first rounders they actually drafted.

5 * Trades/Free Agents
5 * 1st Round
4 * 2nd Round
1 * 4th Round
5 * Rookie Draft
1 * Pre Season Draft
1 * Mid Season Draft

B:	12 David Astbury (Pick 35)	35 Nathan Broad (Pick 67)	2 Dylan Grimes (PSD 2)
HB:	14 Bachar Houli (Traded in)	1 Nick Vlastuin (Pick 9)	15 Jayden Short (RD 11)
C:	5 Brandon Ellis (Pick 15)	3 Dion Prestia (Traded in)	22 Josh Caddy (Traded in)
HF:	17 Daniel Rioli (Pick 15)	9 Trent Cotchin (Pick 2)	23 Kane Lambert (RD 46)
F:	11 Jason Castagna (RD 29)	19 Tom Lynch (Free Agent)	8 Jack Riewoldt (Pick 13)
Foll:	25 Toby Nankervis (Traded in)	10 Shane Edwards (Pick 26)	4 Dustin Martin (Pick 3)
Int:	29 Shai Bolton (Pick 29)	47 Ivan Soldo (RD 68)	48 Liam Baker (RD 18)
	50 Marlion Pickett (MSD #13)

 

[blaisee]

Hawthorn have some pretty big holes on their list, which is actually quite a good thing because if they fix those holes they are going to be a very good team. Much better than Melbourne for instance which on paper don't have many holes and yet are a terrible side nonetheless. Much harder to fix that.

They have holes everywhere

They have poor midfield dwpth

Very few key position defenders

No established key forwards

The ruckman is 30 years old and their best player is 36 yrs old

What exactly is their strength ?

 

[hk89]

An interesting theory going around is that maybe Worpel was given the best and fairest to increase his trade value like they did to Burton

Now this would be genius and should not be discounted

Not to mention getting the umpires in on the act, sneakily giving Worpel more Brownlow votes than the B&F winner of the flag winning side. There is no telling how far the Hawthorn illuminati will go to achieve their evil purposes.

 

[hk89]

Richmond fans chiming in about the elite end of the draft when their premiership team comprised of only 5 first rounders they actually drafted.

That's not really a fair comparison though. Richmond has one of the least talented GF winning lists of all time (after their best 4 or 5). Good coach, strong system, super cohesive team and a very good top shelf has covered for this.

 

[hawkman]

They have holes everywhere

They have poor midfield dwpth

Very few key position defenders

No established key forwards

The ruckman is 30 years old and their best player is 36 yrs old

What exactly is their strength ?

Amazing we won 11 games without all that

 

[RUNVS]

Amazing we won 11 games without all that

Exactly. Hawthorn's midfield is fine, and their backline is okay, though it could really use another good quality KPD. What Hawthorn really need is a forward line as so many of your forwards are either really old or gone.

 

[WWSD]

Exactly. Hawthorn's midfield is fine, and their backline is okay, though it could really use another good quality KPD. What Hawthorn really need is a forward line as so many of your forwards are either really old or gone.

Gunston (27) and Breust (28) are “elite” for their respective positions then you’ve got, Wingard (26), O’Brien (25), Lewis (20) and now Patton (26) who gives Hawthorn a big marking target. The forward-line doesn’t lack “talent” it’s just the overall structure and gameplan that made it ineffective in 2019.

Hawthorn can for example can trade pick 11 for a key defender or draft one.

There will be some big surprises this trade period down at Dingley. Coming in and going out.