Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[Pessimistic]

Neither have Geelong mate

Hawks are rebuilding. You are not supposed to win anything when you are rebuilding.

There is no proof that you are right. The only indicator is Geelong have tried to top up through trading and failed. That is only one example though so it is hardly definitive.

Hawks have certainly been aggressive in trading. The reality is they have not had their hands on a top 10 pick for a very long time and even this year they are going to land with 10 unless something changes and 10 is still not that good a pick.

I am happy with how the hawks are progressing. They are collecting pieces of the puzzle. They are certainly missing pieces and really don't care how they get them.

Geelong rebult but used murphy the builder from fawlty towers for the first attempt. Another builder is fixing the mistakes

 

[hk89]

Geelong rebult but used murphy the builder from fawlty towers for the first attempt. Another builder is fixing the mistakes

 

[Aramis]

With such self destruction we deserve a Priority pick.

I want Tasmania as an exclusive zone too.. its been too long between drinks.

 

[Wojcinski]

Overpaid has no relevance

It definitely does

 

[Pessimistic]

The draft gives you the best opportunity to get ahead of the rest of the competition.

How else do you get a list which is worth more than everyone else? How do you get a Fyfe, Bontempelli, Martin etc into your club? Draft is by far the best route. A lot of premiership players on Richmond's list even got passed on in the draft and got picked up as rookies or pre-season picks.

Trades and free agency are for the cherries on top.

I think Hawthorn's strategy is a good one to remain solid but not a good one to get ahead.

Caddy prestia lynch are there any more?

 

[Pessimistic]

I wasn't trolling but you guys once again can't see past the end of your noses. You have the oldest list, the oldest best 22 and you haven't won a final in years! Pick on my team all you want, at least they're putting themselves in a position to be successful by making, and winning finals.

I hope the list manager at Hawthorn doesn't share the nuff attitude in here because you've already slipped off the cliff and you're hurtling down at a pretty quick pace. Late seasons wins against finals teams won't mean much when you're losing to other spud teams all year.

The proof is in the pudding no matter how you justify it.

- Oldest team overall
- Oldest listed best 22
- Unsuccessful captains
- 2 years missing finals
- 2 years straight sets exits from finals
- Poor recent trading history

Keep those fingers firmly pressed inside those ears lads.

Im pretty sure both times we played geelong the two teams were about equal in age and games played

 

[detox]

Sure

Wingard - Overpaid with a first rounder and your best young defender. Burton & Sicily would have been a dynamic duo over the next decade.
Scrimshaw - Jury is still out for mine
Scully - Plodder (price paid was good though)
Impey - Overpaid, showed good signs but now injured
Minchington - lol
JOM - Overpaid and hasn't got the same ability he had pre knee injuries. Is a contributer but always an injury risk and has a low ceiling.
Vickery - obvious
O'Rourke - rubbish
Frawley - Not terrible in hindsight but cooked now

Wingard- did you see his form the last 3rd of the year in the middle? He was an absolute weapon. Port supporters said he was a mid not a forward and they were right. He also had his most heavily injury interrupted years. With the benefit of hindsite I would make this trade again in a heartbeat.

Scrim- perhaps jury is out on his ceiling, but has shown he has all the attributes and has demonstrated glimpses of exceptional play. Missed most of the year with a pcl. Hard to call this a miss as he was a pick in the 60s. I'd make that trade again x2.

Scully- paid nothing, and has 3-4 seasons in him. You seriously call this "missing the mark"?

Impey- over paid? Your credibility died here. What an absurd comment. He was a chance for our bnf before he did his knee.

Minchington. Paid nothing. Possible bust.

JOM- maybe paid slightly overs, but missing the mark? Very good player

Vickery bust, but only cost cap space for 2 years, which we had plenty of.

O Rourke bust- your only point of relevance as I forgot him

Frawley- far better than not terrible, and was fantastic all year. Barely beaten.

Your posting is based on Hawthorn angst rather than logic. Your done.

 

[Xtreme]

With such self destruction we deserve a Priority pick.

It's only fair the AFL share the love around. Instead of giving everything (including the kitchen sink) to the Gold Coast Suns!

 

[Wojcinski]

Wingard- did you see his form the last 3rd of the year in the middle? He was an absolute weapon. Port supporters said he was a mid not a forward and they were right. He also had his most heavily injury interrupted years. With the benefit of hindsite I would make this trade again in a heartbeat.

Scrim- perhaps jury is out on his ceiling, but has shown he has all the attributes and has demonstrated glimpses of exceptional play. Missed most of the year with a pcl. Hard to call this a miss as he was a pick in the 60s. I'd make that trade again x2.

Scully- paid nothing, and has 3-4 seasons in him. You seriously call this "missing the mark"?

Impey- over paid? Your credibility died here. What an absurd comment. He was a chance for our bnf before he did his knee.

Minchington. Paid nothing. Possible bust.

JOM- maybe paid slightly overs, but missing the mark? Very good player

Vickery bust, but only cost cap space for 2 years, which we had plenty of.

O Rourke bust- your only point of relevance as I forgot him

Frawley- far better than not terrible, and was fantastic all year. Barely beaten.

Your posting is based on Hawthorn angst rather than logic. Your done.

Explain then, with the oldest team in the league the Hawks have failed to win a final for 4 years now?

 

[Pessimistic]

Regular first team players coming in since 2009 before 2015:
—Trades 8
Burgoyne
Gunston
Gibson
Hale
Lake
Frawley
McEvoy
Spangher
—Draftees 9
Bruest
Sheils
Smith
Puopolo
Stratton
Hill
Duryea
Suckling
Langford
Regular first team players coming in 2016 to now:
— Trades 8
Mitchell
Ceglar
O’Meara
Wingard
impey
Scully
Scrimshaw
Henderson
—Draftees 7 plus some not so regular
O’brien
Howe
Hardwick
Sicily
M Lewis
Worpel
Nash
Cousins/Morrison/hanrahan/brand/jiath

The incoming is roughly 50:50 from trades and draft.
16 pretty valuable trades with another handful of busts - 80% success rate - you pretty much know what you get with trades
The draftees? Hawks would be running a better than 40% success which is creditable given the almost total absence of top ten picks

The point is the strategy isnt much different from 2009 right through to 2019, with more success than most other teams in that time

 

[WWSD]

Hey OP what if the Hawks trade up to get the Suns pick 2? Does that mean Hawthorn are still ignoring the elite end of the draft?

 

[Aramis]

It definitely does not

EFA

 

[VernonSpots]

Regular first team players coming in since 2009 before 2015:
—Trades 8
Burgoyne
Gunston
Gibson
Hale
Lake
Frawley
McEvoy
Spangher
—Draftees 9
Bruest
Sheils
Smith
Puopolo
Stratton
Hill
Duryea
Suckling
Langford
Regular first team players coming in 2016 to now:
— Trades 8
Mitchell
Ceglar
O’Meara
Wingard
impey
Scully
Scrimshaw
Henderson
—Draftees 7 plus some not so regular
O’brien
Howe
Hardwick
Sicily
M Lewis
Worpel
Nash
Cousins/Morrison/hanrahan/brand/jiath

The incoming is roughly 50:50 from trades and draft.
16 pretty valuable trades with another handful of busts - 80% success rate - you pretty much know what you get with trades
The draftees? Hawks would be running a better than 40% success which is creditable given the almost total absence of top ten picks

The point is the strategy isnt much different from 2009 right through to 2019, with more success than most other teams in that time

I think you can argue Trades + Drafting in both periods was similar in terms of quality.

Difference I guess is that the players on list already prior to 2009 consisted of buddy, roughy, birchall, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Rioli, etc vs Gunston, Breust, McEvoy, Burgoyne, Shiels, etc on list prior to 2016 period.

 

[Wojcinski]

EFA

Yeah no you're right trading out high draft picks for potatos and failing to win finals is the goal

 

[HolyWars]

For mine they don’t have to hit the mark or have the best team.

The players just need to fit into the structure and Clarkson will do the rest.

Clarkson has already fired a warning shot of sorts - with average teams they knocked over Collingwood, Geelong and WCE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+ GWS twice.

I agree with what you're saying.

 

[Pessimistic]

I think you can argue Trades + Drafting in both periods was similar in terms of quality.

Difference I guess is that the players on list already prior to 2009 consisted of buddy, roughy, birchall, Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Rioli, etc vs Gunston, Breust, McEvoy, Burgoyne, Shiels, etc on list prior to 2016 period.

Also we were raising the avearage age then, and since 2015 its being lowered.

And yes that team had the quality to threepeat, whereas this might pinch a flag (we regularly beat at least one of the last four years grand finalists) it could certainly be us

Its certainly a recurring theme in this thread ‘you dont have the 2012-2015 quality
Newsflash. Neither does any team in competition right now

The threepeat was very commendable, but pinching that flag was also enjoyable, maybe a bit more so

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yeah no you're right trading out high draft picks for potatos and failing to win finals is the goal

I thought you said this thread wasn’t about Geelong?

 

[Wojcinski]

I thought you said this thread wasn’t about Geelong?

it isn't, Geelong still wins finals. Something Hawthorn has failed to do for years

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

it isn't, Geelong still wins finals. Something Hawthorn has failed to do for years

Unfortunately for you, none that matter.

 

[Pessimistic]

it isn't, Geelong still wins finals. Something Hawthorn has failed to do for years

I think recent results would see hawks slightly better than geelong. By recent beyond the last four years

 

[boncer34]

Hey OP what if the Hawks trade up to get the Suns pick 2? Does that mean Hawthorn are still ignoring the elite end of the draft?

I feel like you're trying to make some point.

 

[Wojcinski]

Unfortunately for you, none that matter.

I think recent results would see hawks slightly better than geelong. By recent beyond the last four years

Considering this post started in 2018, I think it matters a lot but by all means keep your heads in the sand because it's pretty funny for the rest of us watching you squirm full well knowing the list is stuffed

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Considering this post started in 2018, I think it matters a lot but by all means keep your heads in the sand because it's pretty funny for the rest of us watching you squirm full well knowing the list is stuffed

Your desperation is showing. Hawks fans have nothing to squirm about.

Hawthorn is the side that won after playing off in four straight grand finals and are now rejigging their list for another tilt... Geelong on the other hand are a side that have been topping up to win a flag since 2011 and have failed dismally to get anywhere near it for 8 straight years.

 

[Wojcinski]

Your desperation is showing. Hawks fans have nothing to squirm about.

Hawthorn is the side that won after playing off in four straight grand finals and are now rejigging their list for another tilt... Geelong on the other hand are a side that have been topping up to win a flag since 2011 and have failed dismally to get anywhere near it for 8 straight years.

lol you keep attacking me and my club when neither of them have anything to do with Hawthorns list. Don't get upset mate, Hawthorns list is in bad shape right now (mostly because of the recent success) and the list manager is making it worse by topping up with average mercenaries. Everyone can see it except you and it's great for the rest of the league.

Hang on tight to those cups because you won't see any again in the next 10 years minimum

 

[hk89]

it isn't, Geelong still wins finals. Something Hawthorn has failed to do for years

We've won the same number of prelims as Geelong has in the last 4 years. The difference is we've won 4 prelims since Geelong won their last. Which apart from rendering any dick measuring contest over before it began, also means we should be behind schedule compared to Geelong on rebuilding our next flag tilt given Geelong's last prelim win was 8 years ago now.

Geelong were a massive 1 month average age younger than the Hawthorn team that beat them in round 18, and we had the oldest player in the competition out on the park. Our list age was slightly deceptive this year compared to the best 22's age because players like Roughy and Birchall sat out for the majority of the year.

Personally, I appreciate your input, because I see Geelong as a cautionary tale about how chasing a rebuild on the fly can go horribly wrong. And from that point of view, you have a valuable perspective, having been up close to a failed attempt at what Hawthorn are now trying to achieve.

Given our 3 wins against the preliminary finalists during the last 8 rounds of the season I reckon we are much better placed for success in 2020 than Geelong who is losing the runner up in their best and fairest, while Hawthorn is getting the 2018 Brownlow medalist back in its side.

Incidentally, using your bizarre logic, Kelly was a failed recruitment because he's headed back home so soon and didn't win a Brownlow while at Geelong.