Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[Pessimistic]

Pick 1. Pick 6. 21 (father son) and pick 1 rookie draft. Also JOM first pick in pre list

Ignoring? (Making notes for later)

 

[WWSD]

Hawthorn is fast approaching the cliff. Clarkson thinks he is smart but his time is coming.

If Hawthorn are approaching a cliff then what do you call the Saints current strategy? You haven’t played finals since 2012.

 

[Maxabillions]

Trade ins take a while to gel too. btw mitchell not mentioned that often. Was great to see pictures of him running today though

Hawthorn photoshop department back at it!

 

[Maxabillions]

When Hawthorn finish 9th again can we call out the strategy is shyte?

No because even if they finish 9th they won’t really be a middle of the road side even if Clarko says they are cos he’s a genius in everything except for knowing if hawthorn is a middle of the road side or not

 

[juss]

If Hawthorn miss finals in 2020 it would be a huge disappointment. 2019 was bad enough, as after a woeful start to the season they were in the best 4-5 sides by the end of the year, and will add an MVP calibre player in Mitchell to the lineup at some stage, along with some improved depth in the KPP positions.

A slightly easier fixture than 2019 should see them finish top 4, presuming they don't have the same bad luck on the injury front.

Will still struggle if they get a matchup against Richmond, as they struggle against sides that swarm and run forward of the contest.

I'd probably have Hawthorn in the 7th-10th range after the home and away of 2020.

I don't see them being better than Tigers, Lions, Giants, Eagles, Magpies next year, and then they sit in the middle pack of teams they might or might not be better than depending on form, injuries and luck, Cats, Bombers, Bulldogs, and one or two bolter improvers that are bound to come up.

 

[sr36]

Hawthorn is fast approaching the cliff. Clarkson thinks he is smart but his time is coming.

Clarkson is smart. But the whole club has been engulfed by arrogance. Their medicos are miracle workers who will get the best out of the aging ailing bodies that they keep adding. Their recruiters will find gold in a scrap heap. Clarko will turn any bunch of hacks into a menacing machine. I think arrogance has resulted in them plunging themselves into a long barren spell.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Clarkson is smart. But the whole club has been engulfed by arrogance. Their medicos are miracle workers who will get the best out of the aging ailing bodies that they keep adding. Their recruiters will find gold in a scrap heap. Clarko will turn any bunch of hacks into a menacing machine. I think arrogance has resulted in them plunging themselves into a long barren spell.

Yep, this long barren spell is extremely hard to deal with, 4 years without a flag...I'm struggling

 

[sr36]

Yep, this long barren spell is extremely hard to deal with, 4 years without a flag...I'm struggling

Of course youre not ... yet. You've just began your walk into the desert. The Hawks have the same whiff of arrogance that the mighty Blues had in the mid 90s. Current strategy is crap. It will have you in no mans land for the next 5 years, before you tumble to the bottom for a decent spell.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Of course youre not ... yet. You've just began your walk into the desert. The Hawks have the same whiff of arrogance that the mighty Blues had in the mid 90s. Current strategy is crap. It will have you in no mans land for the next 5 years, before you tumble to the bottom for a decent spell.

It is the hope of most non hawthorn supporters. Btw Lol at the mighty blues. In their most successful era of winning premierships 9 if memory serves they were still second to the mighty hawks. With all that success and yet here we r. Arrogance may be from us supporters but the club is run as well as any in the AFL

 

[sr36]

It is the hope of most non hawthorn supporters. Btw Lol at the mighty blues. In their most successful era of winning premierships 9 if memory serves they will still second to the mighty hawks. With all that success and yet here we r. Arrogance may be from us supporters but the club is run as well as any in the AFL

You're right, there's a fair bit of hope in my prediction about the Hawks, being as good as you guys have been doesn't win you friends with other supporters. Hawthorn have been an awesome club for the best part of the last 50 years. I just think you've completely lost the plot with the current strategy. Why the hell is an aging core that is currently middle of the road picking up aging injury riddled salary dumps? I'd be very concerned with where this is going. Even if all the risks pay off, I just can't see you having enough talent to become particularly relevant and it will be a short bounce at best before they all need replacing anyway.

 

[Pessimistic]

I'd probably have Hawthorn in the 7th-10th range after the home and away of 2020.

I don't see them being better than Tigers, Lions, Giants, Eagles, Magpies next year, and then they sit in the middle pack of teams they might or might not be better than depending on form, injuries and luck, Cats, Bombers, Bulldogs, and one or two bolter improvers that are bound to come up.

Beating or out playing three of those five not enough then? (Giants Eagles Magpies)

 

[juss]

Beating or out playing three of those five not enough then? (Giants Eagles Magpies)

No it's not and you're smarter than to suggest it is.

Tigers used to beat and outplay the Hawks (and often the Swans) during their flag years was that enough?
The Saints smashed us by about 90 points in 2017 before we won the flag was that enough?
The Bombers beat the Eagles in Perth in 2018 was that enough?

Upsets happen.

 

[WWSD]

Clarkson is smart. But the whole club has been engulfed by arrogance. Their medicos are miracle workers who will get the best out of the aging ailing bodies that they keep adding. Their recruiters will find gold in a scrap heap. Clarko will turn any bunch of hacks into a menacing machine. I think arrogance has resulted in them plunging themselves into a long barren spell.

Is that why Hawthorn have beaten Collingwood in 14 of the last 15 games?

 

[sydney_gws]

To me the answer to this question is yes, but only for a limited time. It is possible to stay up by getting in free agents, this gives you the elite talent usually reserved for the top 5 draft picks. Clarkson didn't want to waste the final 5 or so years of players like gunston, bruest , rioli, Isaac Smith's careers, so began topping up in 2016 by getting in tom Mitchell to replace Sam Mitchell. he knew gold coast and gws would have free agents from 2018 onwards. The plan hasn't quite worked due to not being able to land the quality needed for free like Tom lynch, cognilio, Toby Greene etc.

 

[Pessimistic]

Clarkson is smart. But the whole club has been engulfed by arrogance. Their medicos are miracle workers who will get the best out of the aging ailing bodies that they keep adding. Their recruiters will find gold in a scrap heap. Clarko will turn any bunch of hacks into a menacing machine. I think arrogance has resulted in them plunging themselves into a long barren spell.

Aging or ailing but never both. Youre not so smart. They due diligence anyway. Even they know they cant work miracles every time. Didnt work miracles with birchall schoenmakers or rioli

 

[Pessimistic]

Add omeara from the suns. Flip the argument around. How well did those clubs go with access to the elite end of the draft? Arguably the suns and port got the most back for them in trades

 

[sr36]

Is that why Hawthorn have beaten Collingwood in 14 of the last 15 games?

No. The reason youve beaten so often is because you were a much better team from 2012 until 2017. But the stars of that era are gone and you've replaced them with a rag tag of high risk recruits.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Remember when Hawk fans said they'd be challenging for the flag again after just 1 season, good memories

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Remember when Hawk fans said they'd be challenging for the flag again after just 1 season, good memories

Remember when Melbourne said they'd win a flag, and subsequently finished 17th? Even better memories

 

[Tig017]

Hawthorn stuffed up, but they are not at a stage where they can admit it. There's too much to lose if they do.

They are still the oldest club in the AFL, and their list is a good level below the top echelon. Refusing to go to the draft for so many years has also left them with one of the weakest 18-23 year old brackets in the AFL, even taking into account their really good late picks like Worpel and Lewis.

The haul they had to give up for O'Meara is still one of the worst deals ever, and is the worst kind of arrogance from Clarkson.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Hawthorn stuffed up, but they are not at a stage where they can admit it. There's too much to lose if they do.

They are still the oldest club in the AFL, and their list is a good level below the top echelon. Refusing to go to the draft for so many years has also left them with one of the weakest 18-23 year old brackets in the AFL, even taking into account their really good late picks like Worpel and Lewis.

The haul they had to give up for O'Meara is still one of the worst deals ever, and is the worst kind of arrogance from Clarkson.

Meh since 2016 we have added Mitchell, O'meara, Worpel, Mitchell Lewis, Impey, Scully, Patton, Frost, Wingard, Scrimshaw. Not many teams would have added more talented players over the same time period. All of those players outside of potentially Scully have 5-10 years left of good footy in them.

Adding one of the best mids in the game is going to hopefully help bridge the gap between us and the top echelon of teams, we did prove this season we can match it with those guys at our best we just need the consistency week in week out and Mitchell is one of the best players in the game to help us with that. Especially considering how much we were getting slaughtered out of the midfield in the first half of the season.

The rebuild has it's risks but people acting like it was not a worthwhile risk are kidding themselves.

 

[Tig017]

Meh since 2016 we have added Mitchell, O'meara, Worpel, Mitchell Lewis, Impey, Scully, Patton, Frost, Wingard, Scrimshaw. Not many teams would have added more talented players over the same time period. All of those players outside of potentially Scully have 5-10 years left of good footy in them.

Adding one of the best mids in the game is going to hopefully help bridge the gap between us and the top echelon of teams, we did prove this season we can match it with those guys at our best we just need the consistency week in week out and Mitchell is one of the best players in the game to help us with that. Especially considering how much we were getting slaughtered out of the midfield in the first half of the season.

The problem is timing. You let go of Lake, Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge and others in a 3-year window, and rather than patiently build your way up, Clarkson decides he's impatient and orders his list management to trade the kitchen sink for all these top-ups. Some of those players brought in have big injury clouds over them too, Scully will probably never get back to his best, Patton will probably never get back to his best, T.Mitchell coming back from a broken leg (remember Nathan Brown?).

Meanwhile you look at a team like the Doggies who have been drafting dilligently, even after winning the flag: Macrae, Bont, English, Naughton, Richards, Smith, Dunkley. This is a far better core of under 25s than Hawthorn have. Brisbane too with McCluggage, Cameron, Andrews, Hipwood, Rayner etc.

The rebuild has it's risks but people acting like it was not a worthwhile risk are kidding themselves.

What do you mean it was worthwhile? It's only worthwhile if you win a premiership.

If Hawthorn do not win a premiership by the time guys like Gunston, Frawley, Breust, Scully etc are gone, and Wingard, Mitchell, Patton etc are in their 30s, all of a sudden, your list will be terrible shape, all because your coach is too stubborn, impatient and thought too highly of himself.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

The problem is timing. You let go of Lake, Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge and others in a 3-year window, and rather than patiently build your way up, Clarkson decides he's impatient and orders his list management to trade the kitchen sink for all these top-ups. Some of those players brought in have big injury clouds over them too, Scully will probably never get back to his best, Patton will probably never get back to his best, T.Mitchell coming back from a broken leg (remember Nathan Brown?).

Meanwhile you look at a team like the Doggies who have been drafting dilligently, even after winning the flag: Macrae, Bont, English, Naughton, Richards, Smith, Dunkley. This is a far better core of under 25s than Hawthorn have. Brisbane too with McCluggage, Cameron, Andrews, Hipwood, Rayner etc.


What do you mean it was worthwhile? It's only worthwhile if you win a premiership.

If Hawthorn do not win a premiership by the time guys like Gunston, Frawley, Breust, Scully etc are gone, and Wingard, Mitchell, Patton etc are in their 30s, all of a sudden, your list will be terrible shape, all because your coach is too stubborn, impatient and thought too highly of himself.

That is literally just a made up narrative you have created. How do you know it was a Clarko demand that led to this rebuild model? Of course he would have had a say in it but the entire Hawthorn football club make decisions, not just Clarkson.

I agree the Dogs are in a great shape. To get a core of young players that good would require full on blowing up the team up, accepting you are going to be a bottom team for a few years (minimum), hope you nail those picks and develop them in to stars. If that goes wrong you become a bottom team for a very long time like we have seen from countless teams.

Rebuilding is not easy and comes with risks, we went down a different path and it may or may or may not work but it was absolutely worth the risk.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The problem is timing. You let go of Lake, Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge and others in a 3-year window, and rather than patiently build your way up, Clarkson decides he's impatient and orders his list management to trade the kitchen sink for all these top-ups. Some of those players brought in have big injury clouds over them too, Scully will probably never get back to his best, Patton will probably never get back to his best, T.Mitchell coming back from a broken leg (remember Nathan Brown?).

yeah, Hawthorn really traded the kitchen sink for Scully and Patton. Those two 4th round picks we handed over will screw us eternally.

Comparing Mitchell’s leg break to Brown’s compound fracture.

Meanwhile you look at a team like the Doggies who have been drafting dilligently, even after winning the flag: Macrae, Bont, English, Naughton, Richards, Smith, Dunkley. This is a far better core of under 25s than Hawthorn have. Brisbane too with McCluggage, Cameron, Andrews, Hipwood, Rayner etc.


What do you mean it was worthwhile? It's only worthwhile if you win a premiership.

If Hawthorn do not win a premiership by the time guys like Gunston, Frawley, Breust, Scully etc are gone, and Wingard, Mitchell, Patton etc are in their 30s, all of a sudden, your list will be terrible shape, all because your coach is too stubborn, impatient and thought too highly of himself.

Are Hawthorn getting a trade and draft ban for the next 5 years that we don’t know about?

 

[TylerDurden]

Of course youre not ... yet. You've just began your walk into the desert. The Hawks have the same whiff of arrogance that the mighty Blues had in the mid 90s. Current strategy is crap. It will have you in no mans land for the next 5 years, before you tumble to the bottom for a decent spell.

But, but, we're tapping the elite end of the draft this year.