No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[The Prosecutor]

Let's all keep in mind that whether players are suspended or not does not prove whether doping did or did not occur - it may just be decided on the basis of who has the better legal / PR team.

Using the overall outcome of this process to judge actions - rather than directly judging the actions themselves - is flawed IMHO.

As opposed to what? Ignoring two years suspensions, Hird's noted complicity, Hird 'accepting' that he has to take responsibility and that Hird ultimately was very much in a position of responsibility for the players?

Deciding based upon the outcome of a thorough investigation that culminates in a hearing is far from a flawed process. If that is, then everything is flawed and can't be judged

 

[rumply]

Highly doubt there is any 'smoking gun'/'secret weapon' or other such gob smacking evidence that ASADA are sitting on. Their late move to obtain affidavits from some witnesses & gather further evidence(lol) from the Mckenzie interview with Dank only helped reinforce that their case is purely a circumstantial one & one which should not be enough to secure IN's going by what is known about ADVRP evidence requirements.

 

[scottmclaren]

Bullshit.

Just because you haven't seen their briefs doesn't mean no evidence exists.

Chances of more damning evidence existing is so small it's essentially bullshit. If you've read everything in the public domain then the most likely state of affairs is not much has changed since last August.

ASADA has stated as much in the Federal court already.

 

[pepsi]

The NFL are a very dodgy organisation (see their suppression of concussion research recently) but this is one thing they're certainly better on. The problem is that Australia isn't a big enough country in WADA's eyes for us to get away with telling them to bugger off. America is, and thus can. WADA threatens our government with exclusion from the Olympics if national sports don't sign to the code. They can't do that wirh Amercia, because the olympics without America would be a farce.

I think that is a huge downfall of American sports/FIFA.

How many NBA, NFL players and players playing in epl, la liga, bundesliga have been found guilty of doping in the last 5 years.

Would not surprise me if the number is less than 10.

And considering those leagues pretty much have the most money and prestige associated with them, there is a huge amount to be gained from enhancing ones performance.

American sport is littered with performance enhancing use in my opinion, but gets completely swept under the carpet, nothing to see here etc.

 

[Harlequin]

I would also like the truth to come out.

Once this comes out I think we would be in a much better position to discuss the future of our Club

 

[Beerfish]

Highly doubt there is any 'smoking gun'/'secret weapon' or other such gob smacking evidence that ASADA are sitting on. Their late move to obtain affidavits some witnesses & gather further evidence(lol) from the Mckenzie interview with Dank only helped reinforce that their case is purely a circumstantial one & one which should not be enough to secure IN's going by what is known about ADVRP evidence requirements.

Agreed. So hopefully it pans out like this; nothing comes of ASADA's case against us. Hird returns to the box next season. Bomber stays on in the role he was in before all this shit went down. We win the second of back to back flags and everyone else can gagf. The end.

If there does happen to be some sort of smoking gun and players are suspended I'm sure Hird and Bomber wouldn't have to be sacked because they will walk. Like you though, I'm highly doubtful it exists. If players are suspended on the back of the pitiful circumstantial "case" that exists at the moment I would expect us to fight it to the bitter end and if that drags the rest of the comp through the mud for however long so be it.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

You honestly think ASADA would leak their entire player briefs? Really?

Why would they even contemplate that?

Maybe not, but people (media) have asserted that they have had direct leaks from ASADA.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Bullshit.

Just because you haven't seen their briefs doesn't mean no evidence exists.

So evidence exists but ASADA offer 6 month reduced pleas, despite their last AFL case (involving Saad) resulting in them requesting the maximum penalty for a minor minor stuff up.

Yep, that seems logical.

 

[The Prosecutor]

So evidence exists but ASADA offer 6 month reduced pleas, despite their last AFL case (involving Saad) resulting in them requesting the maximum penalty for a minor minor stuff up.

Yep, that seems logical.

Bit of a difference between the two cases, to put it lightly.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Bit of a difference between the two cases, to put it lightly.

Agreed. A difference. One there is categorical proof, the other that have sweet heck all.

 

[cymarak]

As opposed to what? Ignoring two years suspensions, Hird's noted complicity, Hird 'accepting' that he has to take responsibility and that Hird ultimately was very much in a position of responsibility for the players?

Deciding based upon the outcome of a thorough investigation that culminates in a hearing is far from a flawed process. If that is, then everything is flawed and can't be judged

Bear in mind that the 'thorough investigation' is primarily an investigation into whether doping did or did not occur, with the focal point being a determination as to whether or not infraction notices for doping should be issued - it's not an investigation into whether any of the coaching staff are fit and proper people to be holding their offices at EFC.

As Essendon supporters / members, we can either
(a) judge Hird, Thompson, et al ourselves, based on the evidence we are presented with, or
(b) we can let someone else judge for us, and let them tell us - albeit indirectly - whether we should get rid of our key coaches (suspensions = get rid of them, no suspensions = keep them)

I'd prefer to judge the coaches on their actions myself, and not simply go along with whatever the verdict is from the ADRVP / tribunal process.

Put another way, do you trust the ADRVP and the AFL tribunal to give you the correct verdict on what we should do with the coaches, or would you rather make up your own mind based on the actions of the coaches in question ?

 

[SizzleChest]

I'm not sure why the majority here are so confident ASADA's brief is so flimsy. Truth is, none of us have any idea what the ACC (McDivitt's previous employer) passed onto ASADA, or what ASADA has discovered independently.

If we're to go off the AFL charge sheet and additional leaked material, then yes, it looks like ASADA don't have much of a case for Alavi's one batch of Thymosin. I also agree ASADA's 'Dob yourself in' media blitz did make it look like they might not have much. Still, there are so many unknowns in play - where did Dank source AOD9604 and Thyomomdulin from? How did he bill the club for those drugs? Who are Dank's other chemists? There is so much more to this sorry saga than what has been leaked.

The worst part for me is that the circumstantial evidence is pretty clear that as late as October 2011 Dank and Robinson were pretty keen on including TB4 in the supplements program (which they thought was non-prohibited). Dank sounds like a pretty confident fellow who commands alot of respect and nobody thought to question his expertise on the WADA code (except Doc Reid). I can understand how this could occur at any club but it still makes me feel sick to think that we gave Dank free reign.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Bit of a difference between the two cases, to put it lightly.

Just to remind you that ASADA have to prove that TB4 was injected in the players. NOt that it might have been or could have been. They need to prove that the 34 players each had TB4 injected into them. If you think all the evidence to date categorically proves that, then I'll have whatever drugs you are on.

If you don't think that, then what exactly is your point about the SC notices? That it was a political stunt, or that there is a smoking gun which proves they were injected. As far as I can tell, without sworn evidence by someone injecting them, the players themselves (do they even know the difference), a positive test or video footage, how exactly are they going to prove this?

 

[pepsi]

I'm not sure why the majority here are so confident ASADA's brief is so flimsy. Truth is, none of us have any idea what the ACC (McDivitt's previous employer) passed onto ASADA, or what ASADA has discovered independently.

I am certainly not sitting tightly, waiting confidently, talking quietly.

I was confident last year we wouldn't be banned from finals, hird copping a suspension, etc. there were lots in here with equal confidence.

I still really don't know how it will play out in regards to player suspensions. I hope it works out for us in the end, but won't claim we are clear at this point.

 

[60sbomber]

Let me say firstly that I'm happy for Hird to return because I don't believe players will receive IN's.

BUT......

How on earth can the outcome not be important? If it is found players were administered normal saline and Dank ripped the club off, everyone apologises and we move forward unscathed. That is a very different scenario from Dank not being aware of the updated status of TB4 and the subsequent inadvertent doping of our entire list while keeping the head coach informed every step of the way. The fallout from this would be catastrophic for the EFC.

Whether you like it or not; If it is established that the head coach of a football club was actively involved with the sports science program that resulted in numerous players being administered banned substances and subsequently banned from competition for 2 years and the head coach was kept updated in meetings and via text message of the progress of the program; that coach will no longer have a job irrespective of whether his name is James Hird, Jesus Christ or Idi Amin. It really is as simple as that.

If the players are banned the club is gone. Financially ruined. Onfield prospects will be smashed for a decade at least. The EFC reputation ruined and name forever tainted. Our sponsors will jump ship immediately. Yet the outcome is immaterial? WTAF??
If this unlikely set of circumstances eventuate, anyone who has played a part in the destruction of the club should be publicly flogged for their role in the debacle.

I support the Essendon footy club, not individuals. It gives the "cult" accusations weight when we have people willing to watch the players go down but happy to have those who contributed to their downfall maintain their positions. It won't matter who the coach is if the worst outcome occurs, the team and club will be beyond salvage.

It's nowhere near "as simple as that".

The bolded part - you have exaggerated the argument to the nth degree to try to make your point somehow convincing.
You've gone from participating in an argument where some posters said if any player is suspended, the whole (or in some cases, not all) the football dept should be sacked,
to
your "if" statement above.

Very different. Stick to the subject if you are going to argue the point.

You are naive if you think that the truth is somehow going to emerge from the mists as soon as prosecutions are mounted. Your statement that "if it is found that Dank gave the players a saline solution......etc" seems to indicate you are hoping that someone is going to lay out what actually happened.
Dream on.
At the end of any prosecution, no matter what the outcome, we are all going to be still arguing and speculating about what really happened. Maybe Dank used Thymomodulin. Maybe he never found out that WADA had added TB4 to its banned list until it was too late, for reasons that WADA or ASADA failed to list it, or that he was negligent. Maybe it was all a fraud on the club and the players never got what Dank obtained. Maybe this, maybe that......lots of maybes. Very few known definites.

It is never going to be "that simple".
Unless there is a smoking gun, the players, if they are suspended, will have been outed on a whole lot of maybes. Even if there is a smoking gun, there will not be any clear picture of the extent to which Dank & Robinson, alone, are responsible, and we are still going to have enormous scope to argue the extent of responsibility of others like Hird.

 

[cymarak]

There seem to be 2 different arguments here that suspensions = Hird, Thompson, et al should go.

Argument 1 - let's call it the 'responsibility' argument - is that Hird, et al would have sufficient culpability that they *deserve* to be sacked.

Argument 2 - let's call it the 'greater good' argument - is roughly that Hird, et al might not personally deserve to get sacked for what they did, but getting rid of them is in the best short / medium term interests of the club.

Not saying I agree with these arguments, just that these seem to be 2 distinct angles, although they are centred around a similar conclusion.

 

[JayDon]

Just my opinion of course, but it is fairly obvious they are pissing into the wind.

The media driven outrage that whipped the public into a frenzy - the thousands upon thousands of injections, systematic doping and evil, underhanded cheating has distilled down to this:

26 doses of (maybe) Thymosin Beta 4.

26 doses of (maybe) Thymosin Beta 4 that (maybe) got to the club.

26 doses of (maybe) Thymosin Beta 4 that (maybe) got to the club that (maybe) were administered.

26 doses? 26 doses?? Wait, I thought there was an entire systematic doping program!

There was no doping at Essendon. Anyone that tells you different is a ****ing moron. I'm not a doctor, chemist or nutritionist. But I do know that 26 doses of Thymosin Beta 4 across a list of 40-odd players offers absolutely no benefit. No 'performance enhancement'.

Having said that, I recognise that regardless of whether there was performance enhancement, if somehow TB4 made its way into a syringe and into a player, that still constitutes a breach of the rules. So where does ASADA go?

34 doesn't go into 26. That alone tells you ASADA knows that 34 SC notices =/= 34 infractions.

I cannot speak for the motivations of ASADA, however common sense tells me they have one of two motivations:

1) The show cause notices are exactly that. They are well aware that they will not get 34 infractions and are simply asking those respondents that possibly could have received Thymosin Beta 4 to make a submission. They are well aware that the players did not break the 'spirit' of the law (ie they weren't loaded up on the gear), and need to justify the expense of the investigation by correctly closing the loop.

2) ASADA does not care about the 'right' thing to do. It has issued 34 SC notices with the intent of seeking 34 infractions - despite knowing that 34 players could not all have received the substance they believe made it to the club. If this is the case, ASADA is a broken entity that needs to be disbanded and replaced. It is not performing its core duty of enforcing the NAD and is instead only concerned with point scoring.

That's impressive!

 

[60sbomber]

Let's all keep in mind that whether players are suspended or not does not prove whether doping did or did not occur - it may just be decided on the basis of who has the better legal / PR team.

Using the overall outcome of this process to judge actions - rather than directly judging the actions themselves - is flawed IMHO.

Hallelujah.
Couldn't agree more.

 

[60sbomber]

As opposed to what? Ignoring two years suspensions, Hird's noted complicity, Hird 'accepting' that he has to take responsibility and that Hird ultimately was very much in a position of responsibility for the players?

Deciding based upon the outcome of a thorough investigation that culminates in a hearing is far from a flawed process. If that is, then everything is flawed and can't be judged

You got it right in the last bit (bolded).

 

[westking]

makes me feel sick to think that we gave Dank free reign.

bit like what Gold Coast and Melbourne allowed and the other 11 clubs who had little idea what was going on? Bit like how the AFL wasnt happy with the program at the EFC but allowed it to continue and conduct specific testing and scrutiny? YEah alot of things dont add here.

 

[JayDon]

That's impressive!

I'm fully in favour of all of the responsible people being held accountable.

I'm fully against punishing people who weren't responsible, but happen to have had the bad luck to have been working in the football department at the wrong time.

Wow...I was trying to say that!

The NFL are a very dodgy organisation (see their suppression of concussion research recently) but this is one thing they're certainly better on. The problem is that Australia isn't a big enough country in WADA's eyes for us to get away with telling them to bugger off. America is, and thus can. WADA threatens our government with exclusion from the Olympics if national sports don't sign to the code. They can't do that wirh Amercia, because the olympics without America would be a farce.

Commonwealth games can't hurt our rep???

As opposed to what? Ignoring two years suspensions, Hird's noted complicity, Hird 'accepting' that he has to take responsibility and that Hird ultimately was very much in a position of responsibility for the players?

Deciding based upon the outcome of a thorough investigation that culminates in a hearing is far from a flawed process. If that is, then everything is flawed and can't be judged

Ok, I was thinking you were 'the devil's advocate'.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

I am certainly not sitting tightly, waiting confidently, talking quietly.

I was confident last year we wouldn't be banned from finals, hird copping a suspension, etc. there were lots in here with equal confidence.

I still really don't know how it will play out in regards to player suspensions. I hope it works out for us in the end, but won't claim we are clear at this point.

Real court this year, not a Kangaroo court like last year.

 

[JayDon]

Really good posts today! Well done everyone. I enjoyed them. We're all over it...I reckon we're right and they're wrong...Oops hello Mr.Obvious.

 

[JDavey]

"Yeah look I probably should be more across it then I am"

Has Joe Daniher learned nothing? There is a chance he was injected with PEDs or some kind of robotics - should be banned two years straight up.

 

[Dave]

Hey lads, we can all stop now. I have it on good authority that we are all delusional because we haven't jumped on the "Burn Hird" bandwagon and we think there's a change IN wont be issued. We should just accept that the banzhammer is coming and that we will be nuked back to the stoneage. Dinkum.