Changes to Father son selection

[Djarcoe]

Just saw this;

http://afl.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=41943

It was bound to happen.... hehe but still didnt stop us from nabbing 2 top ten draft picks last year

 

[rizzo]

What a joke, should scrap the priority pick rule then.

People have forgotten other than Hawkins none of our F/S selections were rated highly

Scarlett - Had doubts on if he would be drafted 3rd round +
Blake - Was very raw 3rd round +
Gaz Ablett - People werent sure about him either 2nd round +
Nathan - Wouldn't have been drafted, came from the country - 5th Round +
Callan - Well he hasn't done anything

then we had
Woolnough - who i think from memory was touted to be ok?

Its through good training and staff that these players have become good.


Atleast with a Priority pick you are guaranteed someone decent

 

[Selwood07]

Sour grapes. Wouldn't give it much consideration - AFL will continue to rejig these rules as they have over the years - but for once, good fortune came our way. We would be in ......if it weren't for the F/S rule.

 

[rizzo]

Just to add can someone shed some light on what would happen iF this occured:

Player A and player B are father son picks for geelong.

Carlton Bid pick 6 for Player A
Collingwood bid pick 7 for player B


can we then offer our first and second rounders for those two players, as they are our next avaible picks, or will we have to trade for another first rounder.

IF so, the bids should have to be done BEFORE the trade period to give a club in this situation a chance to get another 1st rounder so they can select that player.

The AFL are a joke and are slowly ****ing the game, thanks Adolf "Hitler" Demitriou

 

[CF]

There have alot of sour grapes around because we are perceived as having benefitted from the rule which I always thought was the idea of it anyway. They were always going to change this rule so we just have to grin and bare it.

 

[Cats!!]

Just to add can someone shed some light on what would happen iF this occured:

Player A and player B are father son picks for geelong.

Carlton Bid pick 6 for Player A
Collingwood bid pick 7 for player B


can we then offer our first and second rounders for those two players, as they are our next avaible picks, or will we have to trade for another first rounder.

IF so, the bids should have to be done BEFORE the trade period to give a club in this situation a chance to get another 1st rounder so they can select that player.

The AFL are a joke and are slowly ****ing the game, thanks Adolf "Hitler" Demitriou

Yeah good point, nah im pretty sure we would have to try and get another first round pick. Also aren't the sons just going to want to be traded at the end of there first contract, if they seriously want to play for their dads club. It F-cking stupid. there just screwing with everything. Also does anyone know what happens if two clubs bid for the one father-son, then say we want to pass, does the club with the higher draft pick get the player?

 

[Turbocat]

The above the situation might be tricky but can anyone ever remember the chance of getting 2 FatherSons that would both be considered 1st rounds? It would be rare , maybe if the sons were twins like the Browns last year but basically its would be a very unusual situation.

I have been vocal on the FS rule for ages , I and as others above have said apart from TH where we have been lucky , we mostly have paid on the money or above the odds. Our two best FS at the moment Gablett and Scarlett would not have cost us on football talent anymore than what we paid. Gary didn't play rep footy so its doubtful he would suddenly be considered in the best 16 kids in the country. Scarlett from memory was taken the same year as Woolly and we took him as a 4th round. Looks cheap now but few thought so at the time. If the changes the have forecast are the new rules the we might potentially be better off or at least not to badly effected.

Why? Its rare that a guy like Tom comes along. Think of our 1st round picks we have had over the years , good players mostly be not potential super stars. He stands out as top 5 player and it irritates other clubs that we got him , he is obviously that good. If another one like him came along Id gladly use our 1st round pick on him. The fact is but that most of our FS have not been standouts , they have shown something and we have given them a chance to develop.

Take the a FS the are currently on our radar, Adam Donohue . Adam by the accounts written by those with good eyes is a kid who may make it. He has shown ability but just like every kid playing in the TAC they must have something and what he would be worth in a draft will depend on his continued performance in the TAC ,possible Vic Country selection and draft camp results. The trick will be in the rating of the potential players in this new system and maybe this is an area that may cause some alteration in planning. Take a Tom Hawkins for example ,if he was going to be drafted this year. Geelong and others had known of him for sometime but he hardly played in the TAC and it was really only his performance at the U18 Champs that blew everyone out of the water. Question. How was this performance in the Champs to the benefit of Geelong? They would have drafted him no matter what but his performance raised his value. Far better fro the club if he had not played at all , so , maybe the days of standout FatherSons will be gone. It may be better if a club tells the kid to play dead , to have an injury , to be sore. As I said above , its pretty hard to rate a kid like Adam Donohue and it will only be harder if he doesn’t play many big games or play for Vic County.

 

[CF]

Interesting thoughts Turbo, I agree with all you said

 

[Inferno]

So if we have pick 7 and some other club bids pick 6 we can't get the F/S? If it's a F/S rule then the club that his dad played for should veto the other picks if they say they will take him with their 1st round pick.

 

[flatcat]

Sounds like a good idea to hide away players Turbocat. I think the Eagles and Adelaide have done this in the past with SA/WA based players.
I can't really see a problem with the way the old FS rule was. Every team has equal opportunity to draft the sons of ex-players. Its the other teams' fault that none of the sons of their ex-players have developed into good footballers. The exceptions to this may be the interstate clubs who haven't been around long enough for FSs, but that will change as their first generation footballers' children grow up. Oh.. and the WC Eagles, who won't have any father sons from the 1990's players because of persistent steroid abuse rendering their players impotent.
Anyway, seems in general that AFL does not promote family values. They prefer to protect drug cheats.

 

[Rockford]

So if we have pick 7 and some other club bids pick 6 we can't get the F/S? If it's a F/S rule then the club that his dad played for should veto the other picks if they say they will take him with their 1st round pick.

Read the rule change, we have the option of taking him with our next available pick. So if we have pick 6 and a team with pick 7 nominate to take him then we can take him with our _next_ available pick (probably round 2). If they have pick 6 and we have 7 then we can take him with 7. I think it opens the door for trading off your high picks if you know that you've got a quality F/S coming through, trade your 1st and 2nd round picks plus some deadwood around the club for a quality and proven youngster or two at another club that wants the picks, just have a 3rd round pick left for the F/S pick. Even if another club nominates to take him in the 1st round your next available pick is the 3rd round pick

 

[BIGANT]

Will Odonahue & Bairstow if up to scratch !! be in our pickings in this yrs draft....anyone else that i don't know about available !?

 

[Metallica_Man]

oh well at least we can say we are the big winners from the rule so far
can't complain too much considering who we have gotten out of it
arguably our best player in the last 5 years (scarlett), arguably our best player at the moment (g ablett), and 3 future stars (hawkins, n ablett and blake)

 

[CF]

oh well at least we can say we are the big winners from the rule so far
can't complain too much considering who we have gotten out of it
arguably our best player in the last 5 years (scarlett), arguably our best player at the moment (g ablett), and 3 future stars (hawkins, n ablett and blake)

and lets not forget that getting Hawkins at pick 3 has also enabled us to pick up Selwood

 

[sarah.13]

Read the rule change, we have the option of taking him with our next available pick. So if we have pick 6 and a team with pick 7 nominate to take him then we can take him with our _next_ available pick (probably round 2). If they have pick 6 and we have 7 then we can take him with 7. I think it opens the door for trading off your high picks if you know that you've got a quality F/S coming through, trade your 1st and 2nd round picks plus some deadwood around the club for a quality and proven youngster or two at another club that wants the picks, just have a 3rd round pick left for the F/S pick. Even if another club nominates to take him in the 1st round your next available pick is the 3rd round pick

Very devious there Rockford, sure your not a lawyer? I like it!!
Also there would be no need to nominate a F/S pick until just before the draft,leaving other clubs minimal or no time to get organized.

 

[bashar]

can anyone see us paying more then we should for a player?
say a stupid club values donahue as a round one pick....and everyone else thinks hes a round 2 or 3 why should we couph up our first round pick?
and it could happen having 2 players nominated as father sons. we could have couch and tom hawkins last year.
this year its couch, barinston, and donohue. (i want donohue though)
god damn it im sooo sick of the afl changing rules all the damn time.
they change the game rules, they change father sons, wat will they change next? maybe hey want to turn this great game into basketball or something?
leave the game and th rules as they are. some ppl will get a less fairer deal but in the end it all should even out.

 

[nananana catman]

can anyone see us paying more then we should for a player?
say a stupid club values donahue as a round one pick....and everyone else thinks hes a round 2 or 3 why should we couph up our first round pick?
and it could happen having 2 players nominated as father sons. we could have couch and tom hawkins last year.
this year its couch, barinston, and donohue. (i want donohue though)
god damn it im sooo sick of the afl changing rules all the damn time.
they change the game rules, they change father sons, wat will they change next? maybe hey want to turn this great game into basketball or something?
leave the game and th rules as they are. some ppl will get a less fairer deal but in the end it all should even out.

Remember though clubs will have to give fair estimations of players because if they bid for them and we don't take them, they are stuck with them.

I wonder if clubs will devise strategies to stooge other clubs father son wise though with the new system?

 

[Cats!!]

this year its couch, barinston, and donohue. (i want donohue though)

Who?

 

[bashar]

Who?

yeh im not sure lol just been a cats supporter for about 5 yrs now so i dont know much about the history. but he plays in wa i think....mentioned before

 

[Archie Jnr]

gee , cant wait until Kent Kingsley's son comes down to geelong

 

[Metallica_Man]

yeh im not sure lol just been a cats supporter for about 5 yrs now so i dont know much about the history. but he plays in wa i think....mentioned before

bairstow?

 

[Scarlett Fever]

All of the scenarios raised above will be covered when the rules are implemented. The key issue will be the timing between, trading, nominating a father/son and the draft. A complex set of rules and procedures will be required.

Personally, I think a fair rule would be to have the bidding system and then the club would have to use there next pick that is atleast say 8 picks (but atleast 4) after the nominated pick. For example,

Cats nominate Hawkins as father son.
Essendon claim Hawkins with the number 2 pick.
Geelong have pick 7 (5 after Essendon) and therefore use pick 23 (2nd round to secure Hawkins). If Geelong had pick 10-16 then this pick would need to be used because it is 8 picks after the nominated pick.
Essendon reselect there number 2 pick.

In this example Geelong get lucky but if they finished in the top 8 and had a later pick they wouldn't be quite as lucky.

The bottomline is there needs to be some space between the picks to take undue pressure off the team with the father/son option. The AFL need to avoid the pick 11 and pick 12 situation that then makes a father/son option a burden for the team who can take the player without much real benefit. Afterall, the bigger the name involved, the more pressure on the club to take him. Other clubs will use this to their advantage. There needs to be a little incentive or advantage for the club to take a father/son. The advantage to Geelong with Hawkins was just too great. It would have been fairer to use a 2nd rounder or late first rounder.

The big problem no one has yet overcome is the lag in time between trading and the draft would need to be changed. A f/s club would need to know what pick it has to keep during the trade period but under the current system the other clubs would not yet be in a position to know what pick it would be willing to use at this time. Currently a pick claimed through trading should not be allowed to claim a father son. This rule should be maintained otherwise the AFL will have a circus on its hands. A club with a potential father/son could be severely restricted in the trading period if it does not know which pick it has to keep to secure a father/son.

The compromise that will be giving the AFL headaches is this. If you have the trading period later then players traded do not get a full preseason with their new club. If you hold the draft earlier then it interferes with school exams for potential draftees.

Headaches all round I am afraid. Nothing released to the press at this stage solves these problems but I hope the AFL have thought about them.

 

[catswhiskers]

I don't see many problems. As pointed out earlier few of our father sons have been obvious early picks. In fact if as an example Donohue is rated a third round draft pick by a side that finishes higher we can use a fourth round. If he is not rated by anyone then a fifth round pick would secure the lad (no need to use a third round). If another f/s shows such promise that he is say rated 10 by collingwood, 3 by melbourne and 6 by west coast then we would be mad not to grab him with our next live pick. In fact sides I suspect will be reluctant to rate them too high in case they are landed with them and some fatherclubsickness sets in.

The fine print will be interesting on any double f/s situation. I hope they have thought that one thru.

 

[WE Are Geelong]

Some have thought this out quite well in this thread already so wont add much to that good work...just some basic thoughts.

Just feel in a broad sense Hawkins is a one off. How long has the father son rule been in? He would be the first of our picks that had such a prior high rating for us. Regardless of how many other guys have turned into good players for us since... Hawkins is probably the first guy who we paid under the odds for at the time of the draft. All the other ones mentioned were on the money if not somewhat speculatory ourselves.

My overall opinion is this is a knee 'jerk' or sperm bank 'jerk' reaction by the AFL to clubs who obviously have guys with very poor semen deposits.....

My point being the odds of another Tom Hawkins showing up in the very near future are remote...maybe his brother some will say?...but really its the type of thing that will happen so infrequently its just about a complete waste of time going to all this trouble over something that might happen once a decade if that.

If Donohue does amazing things from here and someone nominates a first round pick for him I would be shocked to be honest...its just such an unlikely scenario even given the kid is showing something...so are 100 other kids right about now around the country too.

If someone offers a second round pick...big deal...I dont see much difference in what we have picked at second and third round picks of late and our two fourth round picks prior to Hogan (not saying he wont be a player) were Egan and Stokes...Hence I feel the notion of a bidding system creating more equality is very overated and in the main quite unnecessary.

 

[bashar]

what if clubs big just for the name?
look at nathan, um he was in a weakish draft pool as i recall, and alot of clubs would take a punt on his name alone, theyd give 3rd or 2nd round up easily for a project player that contains the name ablet! what if a club wanted to give up its 1st round pick! then geelong must match it?
lets say nathan who didnt show enough to warrant it sucked...big time and were looking at delisting him...in hindsight we gave up a strong pick just because some stupid club wanted to inflate his damn price...just because of his surname!
and i dont care if you think your name doesnt count for much...it does, i know alot of my friends were looked over (and they were decent) in tac comp for kids who have the surname of another afl footballer.
and lets face it a name like ablet would generate alot of revinue.
lets say a hird, or buckley were in the draft and they werent showing potential...yet someone inflated thier price and now those respected clubs are under pressure to match it. its not right and the afl have definatly stuffed this up