Changes vs Melbourne

[Avid_Avenger]

Does it? Seems more of an acknowledgement of where we're at. We are not a shot at at the premiership this year. If Rhys is gone I'd rather Crichton etc be getting games personally.

It may also bean acknowledgement of where Rhys is. In the era of free agency, I'd be expecting a Barlow to play, or a Sandilands type. Rhys not so much.

This would only make sense if Crichton etc was playing half a game on the ball.

We are not developing any of our midfielders, except maybe DeBoer who has had tagging jobs.

If we were out to develop our players for next year and beyond Pavlich would not be a permanent midfielder, injuries or otherwise. MJ would not have continued to play while horribly out of form. End of argument.

The simple fact is we'd be on the cusp of the top four with a couple more wins and we didn't lose those extra games becoz of injuries - Geelong (poor conversion), Hawthorn (poor centre square setup/ forward line setup/ use of the sub).

The only valid argument I've heard from anyone is that Palmer doesn't run hard enough defensively. So who have we replaced him with to show him how to do it properly? Pav. Pav is possibly the worst midfielder in the comp in terms of defensive accountability.

Therefore, if Rhys is going elsewhere next year, it indicates we have a hell of a lot to learn before free agency comes around. And if we don't learn to deal with good players leaving and use them while we have them available, then we won't get anywhere.

Teams don't have the luxury of having a squad full of Barlows. Free agency won't change that. Every A grade player needs a solid B grade player alongside them to allow them to do what they do best - get dangerous.

 

[Lach72]

Jesse has the body of a twig. He won't play half a game there. To suggest it is ludicrous. But he has moved through there and he has improved with each game.
Why is Lower playing and not Rhys? He's doing the hard team things. Tackles, spoils, chasing, smothers. He's playing midfield, but also off half back.


Rhys is not rated at the moment. We have no players left.
What does that tell you?

Either the coaches have not got a clue (unlikely) or he's not doing what is required. I get the impression they think he's a 1 trick pony, and that trick is a bit ordinary.

 

[Righteo]

Strongly agree with all points there Avenger
The only other one of our younger guys you could argue is being groomed for a midfield role is Broughton, other than Fyfe.

I think Palmer has simply been mis-managed by the club and heavily under-utilised.

 

[esquilax]

i doubt any of us would know. Short of having a couple of security guards stationed outside his bedroom door every night, what do you do about a player that insists on acting like a ********?

If you're referring to Palmer, I don't believe there is any suggestion that he has been involved in anything off field in any way.

It's discipline for sure, but to do will what he's told with regards program and process from the coaches. We're not talking Collingwood or St Kilda antics here. It's his professional application to the task.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

Jesse has the body of a twig. He won't play half a game there. To suggest it is ludicrous. But he has moved through there and he has improved with each game.
Why is Lower playing and not Rhys? He's doing the hard team things. Tackles, spoils, chasing, smothers. He's playing midfield, but also off half back.


Rhys is not rated at the moment. We have no players left.
What does that tell you?

Either the coaches have not got a clue (unlikely) or he's not doing what is required. I get the impression they think he's a 1 trick pony, and that trick is a bit ordinary.

You keep answering your own question but don't seem to understand what that answer is.

It tells blind freddy that he's going elsewhere next year and we've decided to play other players instead because the club doesn't like it.

Which suggests we have a hell of a lot to learn before free agency rolls around.

As for the one trick pony idea, that's crap. He's not a full forward. He's an inside midfielder, which we are clearly lacking. If all Rhys did was shovel out clearances and handballs all game (as he has done in the few minutes he's played in the centre square), I wouldn't be complaining that that was all he did. Meanwhile, Palmer has been way up in tackles this year too.

Breakdown:
1. Pav is playing permanent midfield. i.e. we are not in a development year if young mids are spending no minutes in the square.

2. Palmer hasn't been given a shot in his best position all year so I don't know how he could really be working on whatever it is that he's apparently not doing. i.e. the coaching staff aren't trying to develop him.

Conclusion?
He's going elsewhere and this is our way of dealing with it.

 

[Bradesmaen]

There is so much wrong with this post...

This would only make sense if Crichton etc was playing half a game on the ball.

Crichton is better as a half back flanker as he has defensive accountability.

We are not developing any of our midfielders, except maybe DeBoer who has had tagging jobs.

Fyfe? Hill? He's started more in the square to date this year. Don't forget one of our soon to be gun midfielders is out for the year with a knee injury. Beyond that some others like Pitt are developing in the WAFL.

If we were out to develop our players for next year and beyond Pavlich would not be a permanent midfielder, injuries or otherwise. MJ would not have continued to play while horribly out of form. End of argument.

And we would be losing if we took Pav out the midfield, especially with Barlow being injured for a long time. What do people want? 100% development or Winning?

The simple fact is we'd be on the cusp of the top four with a couple more wins and we didn't lose those extra games becoz of injuries - Geelong (poor conversion), Hawthorn (poor centre square setup/ forward line setup/ use of the sub).

The geelong one was poor conversion, but the Hawks one was not due to poor centre square set up, nor the use of the sub. You sub someone off who is cramping, what good is he going to be going forward anyway? That is why they subbed him. The centre square set up was fine for 3 quarters of a game, but we lacked the poise at the end of the game to run it out.

The only valid argument I've heard from anyone is that Palmer doesn't run hard enough defensively. So who have we replaced him with to show him how to do it properly? Pav. Pav is possibly the worst midfielder in the comp in terms of defensive accountability.

So wrong.. so so wrong. Pav is great in terms of his accountability, but his first priority is to win the ball himself, which will always leave him open it he misses a tap etc. Also have you noticed how many times he will be deep in defence? Probably not because you're not noticing the good, only the bad.

Therefore, if Rhys is going elsewhere next year, it indicates we have a hell of a lot to learn before free agency comes around. And if we don't learn to deal with good players leaving and use them while we have them available, then we won't get anywhere.

Free agency is for 10 year players, so in reality the only people it will affect is our most loyal players right now. It won't affect developing players AT all.

Far out, could you be anymore wrong?

 

[Avid_Avenger]

Strongly agree with all points there Avenger
The only other one of our younger guys you could argue is being groomed for a midfield role is Broughton, other than Fyfe.

I think Palmer has simply been mis-managed by the club and heavily under-utilised.

Yep. Fyfe has forced their hand simply by being brilliant. Wasn't much development needed there.

And I've always said I'd prefer to lose Broughton from half back than lose Pav from the forward line. Broughton can do what Pav does in the middle but better IMO. I hope they keep him in the guts for the majority of the year to see what he can do in there for an extended time.

The Palmer situation is sad on all fronts, especially considering the team is still not that far off the top four despite all our injuries and makeshift midfield/forward line setups.

 

[esquilax]

2. Palmer hasn't been given a shot in his best position all year so I don't know how he could really be working on whatever it is that he's apparently not doing. i.e. the coaching staff aren't trying to develop him.

He had his best game in a few years against Port Adelaide and then (with many others) proceeded to pooch-screw it vs St Kilda.

I suspect he (like others) didn't do what he was told in the St Kilda game because he was then the sub for vs Hawthorn.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

There is so much wrong with this post...

Crichton is better as a half back flanker as he has defensive accountability.

Fyfe? Hill? He's started more in the square to date this year. Don't forget one of our soon to be gun midfielders is out for the year with a knee injury. Beyond that some others like Pitt are developing in the WAFL.

And we would be losing if we took Pav out the midfield, especially with Barlow being injured for a long time. What do people want? 100% development or Winning?



The geelong one was poor conversion, but the Hawks one was not due to poor centre square set up, nor the use of the sub. You sub someone off who is cramping, what good is he going to be going forward anyway? That is why they subbed him. The centre square set up was fine for 3 quarters of a game, but we lacked the poise at the end of the game to run it out.


So wrong.. so so wrong. Pav is great in terms of his accountability, but his first priority is to win the ball himself, which will always leave him open it he misses a tap etc. Also have you noticed how many times he will be deep in defence? Probably not because you're not noticing the good, only the bad.



Free agency is for 10 year players, so in reality the only people it will affect is our most loyal players right now. It won't affect developing players AT all.

Far out, could you be anymore wrong?

Haha what a pile of garbage

 

[Lach72]

So, are we a chance at winning this year?
Does anyone actually believe that? If Rhys is leaving, and we have no chance of winning this year do we gain anything from having him in the side?

Pav blah blah blah.
To have a chance currently against Geelong and Collingwood in finals we need our best team on the park most of the year.
We've had nothing like it.
We're 7th and may stay in the lower half of the 8, I feel.
If I named our best side at the start of the year, even without seeing Mzungu and Lower play, Rhys wasn't in it. Now I've seen them, he's less so, because they can kick and have a couple more strings to the bow.

Thea reason I brought up Barlow and free agency is that he would be the difference between winning and losing games and possibly a premiership. So if he said "right, I'm off" you'd say "thanks for letting us know and here's the number 21 for next week".
We have no chance this year at winning the flag, I feel. Rhys is not the "messiah" he's just a naughty boy. As such, I personally would say let's develop elsewhere.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

He had his best game in a few years against Port Adelaide and then (with many others) proceeded to pooch-screw it vs St Kilda.

I suspect he (like others) didn't do what he was told in the St Kilda game because he was then the sub for vs Hawthorn.

You may be right but again, against Saints he didn't play at all in the midfield and was stuck at HF/FP where the delivery was a dogs breakfast.

Against the Power he spent the most time in the centre square he has all year.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

So, are we a chance at winning this year?
Does anyone actually believe that? If Rhys is leaving, and we have no chance of winning this year do we gain anything from having him in the side?

Pav blah blah blah.
To have a chance currently against Geelong and Collingwood in finals we need our best team on the park most of the year.
We've had nothing like it.
We're 7th and may stay in the lower half of the 8, I feel.
If I named our best side at the start of the year, even without seeing Mzungu and Lower play, Rhys wasn't in it. Now I've seen them, he's less so, because they can kick and have a couple more strings to the bow.

Thea reason I brought up Barlow and free agency is that he would be the difference between winning and losing games and possibly a premiership. So if he said "right, I'm off" you'd say "thanks for letting us know and here's the number 21 for next week".
We have no chance this year at winning the flag, I feel. Rhys is not the "messiah" he's just a naughty boy. As such, I personally would say let's develop elsewhere.

Again, if we were developing elsewhere, I'd agree with you. The role Palmer plays (or should play) is an empty slot in our team right now.

Pav blah blah blah might suit you but he is a fill-in.

And like everyone knows, if you make the top four - and with all our injured players due back by the end of the year - who knows? Probably not but that's not the mentality that wins flags. If anything reaching another semi or prelim would go a lot further development-wise than reaching an elimination final or nothing at all.

 

[Lach72]

Barlow, Mundy - a grade mids.
Fyfe, Broughton, Lower. Next rung down. Can all play off the flanks.
Pav? Prefer as a CHF.
Move through the mid: Mzungu, Hill, Ballantyne, Duffield, Suban. Can play flanks, attacking or defensive.
Morabito if fit.
Jesse coming on.
De Boer, Crowley, McPhee: taggers.

Where does Rhys fit here? Lost a yard of pace, average defensively, not strong overhead, ordinary kick.

 

[Lach72]

Again, if we were developing elsewhere, I'd agree with you. The role Palmer plays (or should play) is an empty slot in our team right now.

Pav blah blah blah might suit you but he is a fill-in.

And like everyone knows, if you make the top four - and with all our injured players due back by the end of the year - who knows? Probably not but that's not the mentality that wins flags. If anything reaching another semi or prelim would go a lot further development-wise than reaching an elimination final or nothing at all.

Rhys is not that good. He's no longer the player from 2008. Not even close.

 

[kp junior]

Barlow, Mundy - a grade mids.
Fyfe, Broughton, Lower. Next rung down. Can all play off the flanks.
Pav? Prefer as a CHF.
Move through the mid: Mzungu, Hill, Ballantyne, Duffield, Suban. Can play flanks, attacking or defensive.
Morabito if fit.
Jesse coming on.
De Boer, Crowley, McPhee: taggers.

Where does Rhys fit here? Lost a yard of pace, average defensively, not strong overhead, ordinary kick.

The yard of pace is probably where the problem is IMO. Maybe that is why he won't get back to 08 Rhys.

But we should remember the football Rhys played in 08 is 2 classes better than anything Suban, Crichton, Mzungu, or Lower have ever produced to this point.

 

[Lach72]

The yard of pace is probably where the problem is IMO. Maybe that is why he won't get back to 08 Rhys.

But we should remember the football Rhys played in 08 is 2 classes better than anything Suban, Crichton, Mzungu, or Lower have ever produced to this point.

No argument from me there.

 

[Avid_Avenger]

Barlow, Mundy - a grade mids.
Fyfe, Broughton, Lower. Next rung down. Can all play off the flanks.
Pav? Prefer as a CHF.
Move through the mid: Mzungu, Hill, Ballantyne, Duffield, Suban. Can play flanks, attacking or defensive.
Morabito if fit.
Jesse coming on.
De Boer, Crowley, McPhee: taggers.

Where does Rhys fit here? Lost a yard of pace, average defensively, not strong overhead, ordinary kick.

Barlow 1st game back. Mundy gone for year?

Fyfe shouldn't be inside mid. Lower should be, but isn't. Broughts only just being utilised in that area last two weeks.

Rhys fits in where he plays best - inside mid, dishing out to the others.

 

[Deep_Purple]

The argument that Pav playing as a midfielder = we are not in a development year is pretty ambiguous, plus the argument that players are only being developed if they play in the middle is pretty naive.

If we are in a development year there would be a balance between winning as many games as we can, and rounding out each players development. In modern football anyone playing on a flank, wings, centre, followers are all called on to play basically as midfielders, with the presses and flooding. Harves is using the flanks and wings to help see these young players develop, while he is more selective in picking the ruck by putting players in there that he trusts to give us a good chance at winning, and thereby keeping the balance of winning vs development.

At the end of the day we are all guessing because we are on the outside looking in.

 

[Lach72]

Good post DP. Bit more eloquently put than my efforts.

 

[Scham]

Barlow 1st game back. Mundy gone for year?

Fyfe shouldn't be inside mid. Lower should be, but isn't. Broughts only just being utilised in that area last two weeks.

Rhys fits in where he plays best - inside mid, dishing out to the others.

While Fyfe's kicking is as bad as it is, and he keeps winning contested ball, then he'll be used inside and outside.

Rhys plays best playing without instruction and being able to use his natural footy brain. Run free, win a few possies, get a heap given on the outside...Unfortunately that doesn't fit the team and he needs to play to the team structures. He's not an inside mid - if he was, then he'd be playing regularly. Because he's mainly outside and his disposal is average at best, and we've got others that can do it better he'll be overlooked for a midfield position.

 

[GordonGecko]

Palmer is a left footed Schammer, Schammer is a good bloke though.

You simply cannot carry blokes who run one way, panic consistently with ball in hand and have poor kicking techniques which go to shit completely, under pressure.

The press needs to be kicked through, too hard to run through with handball.

Rhys cant kick, cant think his way through congestion, as such their is no room for him.

 

[Clay Davis]

The yard of pace is probably where the problem is IMO. Maybe that is why he won't get back to 08 Rhys.

But we should remember the football Rhys played in 08 is 2 classes better than anything Suban, Crichton, Mzungu, or Lower have ever produced to this point.

I rate him above Mzungu, still. People criticise Rhys as a butcher. Mzungu is worse.

 

[GordonGecko]

I rate him above Mzungu, still. People criticise Rhys as a butcher. Mzungu is worse.

Lol.

Mzungu has a tendency of going for too much too often. There's alot more space in the WAFL, he'll temper his style to suit the AFL brand, he's what, 4 games in?

Mzungu was pivotal in the last quarter against Essendon, we have him, Fyfe and Ballantyne to thank for halted a midseason slide.

Mzungu ran hard, hit his targets and finished on goal.

Something Rhys has been unable to demonstrate since 2008.

 

[dugrene]

I rate him above Mzungu, still. People criticise Rhys as a butcher. Mzungu is worse.

I reckon Mzungu should be allowed some breathing room.

Rhys has proved beyond reasonable doubt he is suspect. The jury on Tendai is mostly still deliberating.

Youve shot your bolt a bit early me thinks.

 

[Clay Davis]

Lol.

Mzungu has a tendency of going for too much too often. There's alot more space in the WAFL, he'll temper his style to suit the AFL brand, he's what, 4 games in?

Mzungu was pivotal in the last quarter against Essendon, we have him, Fyfe and Ballantyne to thank for halted a midseason slide.

Mzungu ran hard, hit his targets and finished on goal.

Something Rhys has been unable to demonstrate since 2008.

Your most laughable opinion since you said Swift will be an A grader. Mzungu's disposal is dead ordinary, worse than Palmer's has ever been. But you have an axe to grind when it comes to Palmer, it's well documented.