Roast Chris Mayne Why?

[Cousin of Daicos]

Ed if I may ask you, if you had a choice between Travis Cloke or Chris Mayne- who would you take?

What gets me angry is that Cloke is taking less $$ at the Dogs on a lesser term too whereas Mayne is being paid $500k for 4yr term.

In isolation, yeah, you'd take Cloke.

But that's not really a question you can ask. The option to keep Cloke didn't exist. He wanted out.

 

[MarkT2]

Elite - Grundy, Moore
A grade - De Goey, Scharenberg, Adams, WHE,
B grade - Aish, Brown, Daicos, Broomhead,

If I was being optomistic I'd agree with the potential elite and tone down the rest a bit. Of the potential A graders - Scharenberg is pushing it up hill given his injuries let alone the number of top 10 picks that do/don't end up A grade. It can't be an evidence based view. Admas is a definite chance albeit with footskills well below A grade. Baring that deficiency he's not far off it now but it is a significant impediment. Aish as a B Grade? Maybe based on his draft position but not his footy thus far but I can see cause for optomism. Really the assesment of Brown & Daicos can only be hope for 0 gamers and Broomhead hasn't thus far lived up to his potential which makes me wonder if he has as much potential as first thought. He's been injury restricted but he hasn't really put together a 4 quarter top line game to my recollection. B grade might be his upper limit as opposed to his likely destination.

All in all if you are righ it is a well below par tally given the rebuild we have undertaken. If we aren't good enough to play finals this year then our future depends on list changes not list development. The last 2 weeks our developed good players haev played well and we've lost. They won't all play so well for 22 rounds.

One indicator of the developing youth is shown in the rising star nominations and the lack of contenders for winning the award in recent years. The squad that developed into the 2010 premiership side had a good dose of annual nominations and arguably a couple that could have won it. Rains and Pearce beat Shaw into 3rd. Thomas finished 7th that year. Pendlebury finished second to Selwood in 2007. Beams was 4th in 2009.

I just don't see that quality coming through in recent years.

 

[Seedsfan]

Which of those players were available via FA? Where would we have found the draft picks to satisfy trade deals? Who were you willing to offload to gain these draft picks?

If we didn't have what we needed to strike a trade then the deal doesn't get done. But we shouldn't target blokes like Mayne and Wells just because they are available. When it comes to free agency we have an incredibly poor track record. We take players because we can then think about how they will fit into the side latter.

 

[mike123]

In isolation, yeah, you'd take Cloke.

But that's not really a question you can ask. The option to keep Cloke didn't exist. He wanted out.

He was still contracted so we could have just enforced it.

 

[jackcass]

If we didn't have what we needed to strike a trade then the deal doesn't get done. But we shouldn't target blokes like Mayne and Wells just because they are available. When it comes to free agency we have an incredibly poor track record. We take players because we can then think about how they will fit into the side latter.

We didn't, it wasn't, I'm still reserving judgement on the merit of recruiting Mayne and Wells. I think Qstick was serviceable until he broke his leg, I think Young was a flop. Yet you could understand both being recruited given the age profile of our squad and perceived short term needs. Did I miss anyone? So that'd be 1-1 with 2x TBD. Given what we've been prepared to pay I'm not sure how much more we could have expected.

 

[THATSGOLD]

If we win the next four games how will you feel?

Won't happen. Get your head out of the sand.

 

[northpie]

Elite - Grundy, Moore
A grade - De Goey, Scharenberg, Adams, WHE,
B grade - Aish, Brown, Daicos, Broomhead,

Again like the optimism
A graders: sharenberg you cannot possibly classify given he has not produced a single afl game of that calibre let alone say 50
Adams: his kicking and occasional lapses in disposal decisions render him a b grader thus far
WHE has had 5 years in system and has yet to claim a regular spot in an afl team. Has ability I give you but c grade on output thus far in his career.
B graders: aish doesn't cut it for best 22 in a middling team. He is a long way from b grade
Broomhead: played a handful of games in 4 or so years in system again d grade on output
Daicos and Brown: mid 50s and mid 30s in the draft as father son picks. Taking a realistic view 1 of them turning out as b grader is unlikely , the 2 of them as b graders is fantasy
I continue to be amazed at the optimism of people to Shaz becoming a star. Not knocking the bloke but realistically he is an underpaced HBF who's development has been crueller by injury, and who's output has been only fair to middling in vfl games

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

He was still contracted so we could have just enforced it.

Yeah, we could have.

Then we'd have a player on 400-500K a year who spends the entire year in the VFL.

Awesome.

 

[JackoSpades]

Lots of people overating our list, putting pressure on for finals, coaches last year etc
Means went for quick fix. Should gave stayed the course, gone younger stayed with the age profile, used all that cash on one good young player, even held onto it I no one was available till this year.

 

[mike123]

Yeah, we could have.

Then we'd have a player on 400-500K a year who spends the entire year in the VFL.

Awesome.

Shouldn't have been in the VFL in the first place.

 

[doodles98]

Lots of people overating our list, putting pressure on for finals, coaches last year etc
Means went for quick fix. Should gave stayed the course, gone younger stayed with the age profile, used all that cash on one good young player, even held onto it I no one was available till this year.

We have to pay out 95% of the cap each year. We can't just bank cap savings, accumulate them and then spend it. Most you can get from paying under cap is about $350K.

 

[loki04]

We have to pay out 95% of the cap each year. We can't just bank cap savings, accumulate them and then spend it. Most you can get from paying under cap is about $350K.

Clubs believe the AFL is set to lift the salary cap at each club by an estimated $1.3 million and have begun renegotiating player contracts allowing for a 10 per cent increase in the 2017 total player payments.

The current salary cap sits at $10.3 million with next year's total player payments further complicated by the impending abolition of the veteran's allowance. Each club will be compensated to the tune of $400,000, a bonus for some clubs and a burden for others — like Geelong and Hawthorn — which have a long list of veterans.

Clubs and player managers remain unclear as to whether the AFL plans to roll that $400,000 per club into the TPP increase.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...tiating-player-contracts-20160817-gqv1tx.html


95% floor, then clubs can opt to pay 105% following year freeing up more then 1mil over 2016/2017 periods even more if we do 95% 2017 and 105% 2018.

10.3 mil plus bonus 400k from veterans rolled in. 10.7mil cap for 2017.

Means our floor is $10,165,000, further to this the cap is expected to lift by 1.3 mil in 2018, taking it to a clean 12 mil which means should we go this route 105% of 12 million is 12.6mil.

12.600 - 10.165 = 2.435 mil. of Cap space for 2018 season if we are paying the minimum in 2017.

 

[doodles98]

Clubs believe the AFL is set to lift the salary cap at each club by an estimated $1.3 million and have begun renegotiating player contracts allowing for a 10 per cent increase in the 2017 total player payments.

The current salary cap sits at $10.3 million with next year's total player payments further complicated by the impending abolition of the veteran's allowance. Each club will be compensated to the tune of $400,000, a bonus for some clubs and a burden for others — like Geelong and Hawthorn — which have a long list of veterans.

Clubs and player managers remain unclear as to whether the AFL plans to roll that $400,000 per club into the TPP increase.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...tiating-player-contracts-20160817-gqv1tx.html


95% floor, then clubs can opt to pay 105% following year freeing up more then 1mil over 2016/2017 periods even more if we do 95% 2017 and 105% 2018.

10.3 mil plus bonus 400k from veterans rolled in. 10.7mil cap for 2017.

Means our floor is $10,165,000, further to this the cap is expected to lift by 1.3 mil in 2018, taking it to a clean 12 mil which means should we go this route 105% of 12 million is 12.6mil.

12.600 - 10.165 = 2.435 mil. of Cap space for 2018 season if we are paying the minimum in 2017.

You've just blown my mind man. So you're saying we ARE getting both Fyfe and Martin.

 

[loki04]

You've just blown my mind man. So you're saying we ARE getting both Fyfe and Martin.

Eh, just commenting on the amount of potential cap space we should be able to free up.

Not the miserly 350k you put forward now is it?

Do need to keep in mind that all clubs are gaining 1.3mil extra in 2018 but not all clubs caps are going to be managed the same so our gap on them will vary.

Dare say though we will have a fair carrot to dangle at SOMEONE.

 

[doodles98]

Eh, just commenting on the amount of potential cap space we should be able to free up.

Not the miserly 350k you put forward now is it?

Do need to keep in mind that all clubs are gaining 1.3mil extra in 2018 but not all clubs caps are going to be managed the same so our gap on them will vary.

Dare say though we will have a fair carrot to dangle at SOMEONE.

Eh, that was hardly the point of the post I made which was about how we can't just accumulate cap savings. I did say this quoting the guy who was suggesting we should have done this instead of getting Wells and Mayne. . Did you think I was saying we'd only have ,$350 k.. lol.. go back and re read. Honestly, basic comprehension skills are a rarity on this board sometimes.

 

[loki04]

Eh, that was hardly the point of the post I made which was about how we can't just accumulate cap savings. I did say this quoting the guy who was suggesting we should have done this instead of getting Wells and Mayne. . Did you think I was saying we'd only have ,$350 k.. lol.. go back and re read. Honestly, basic comprehension skills are a rarity on this board sometimes.

But you are wrong YOU can accumulate savings from one year to the next and "spend it". Also your "about" figure is way off the SPEND amount, which was MY point... comprehension indeed.

"We have to pay out 95% of the cap each year. We can't just bank cap savings, accumulate them and then spend it. Most you can get from paying under cap is about $350K."

Btw my Eh was pointed at your sarcasm on Fyfe and Martin quip. As in where did that come from.

 

[doodles98]

But you are wrong YOU can accumulate savings from one year to the next and "spend it". Also your "about" figure is way off the SPEND amount, which was MY point... comprehension indeed.

"We have to pay out 95% of the cap each year. We can't just bank cap savings, accumulate them and then spend it. Most you can get from paying under cap is about $350K."

Btw my Eh was pointed at your sarcasm on Fyfe and Martin quip. As in where did that come from.

You can accumulate 5% , which you have to spend the next year. You can't accumulate the salaries of Swan, Cloke, Brown, Witt's etc and spend it the next year. We either had to get in players like Wells or Mayne or front load the hell out of existing players just to get to the 95% after we lost Swan, Toovey, Cloke, brown etc. You are arguing some stupid semantics and detail which has nothing to do with my the point of the post I made to the other guy. You then ran your fantasy numbers and came up with us having a cap space of $2.6m and said that was a lot more than the %350k guestimate I made based on a possible 5% underspend....well derrrr. I clearly wasn't talking about our projected cap space next year and incorporating new cap allowances was I. The Fyfe and Martin comment wasn't sarcasm or having a go at you either...Comprede?

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Again like the optimism
A graders: sharenberg you cannot possibly classify given he has not produced a single afl game of that calibre let alone say 50
Adams: his kicking and occasional lapses in disposal decisions render him a b grader thus far
WHE has had 5 years in system and has yet to claim a regular spot in an afl team. Has ability I give you but c grade on output thus far in his career.
B graders: aish doesn't cut it for best 22 in a middling team. He is a long way from b grade
Broomhead: played a handful of games in 4 or so years in system again d grade on output
Daicos and Brown: mid 50s and mid 30s in the draft as father son picks. Taking a realistic view 1 of them turning out as b grader is unlikely , the 2 of them as b graders is fantasy
I continue to be amazed at the optimism of people to Shaz becoming a star. Not knocking the bloke but realistically he is an underpaced HBF who's development has been crueller by injury, and who's output has been only fair to middling in vfl games

I agree with most of that.
I do think you are being a little harsh on WHE and Aish, and I think it is far too early to make any calls on Brown & Daicos. Did they slip because of height (teams have made that mistake before), did teams think there was no point bidding because they knew we would match with our pile of mid draft picks, or was it because josh (at least) was relatively hidden from recruiters. (Either intentionally or just because of lack of gametime). In the end their draft positions were fair, but Im hoping they are better than the average player in those spots.

But no way Adams is a B grader. He is not, and never will be elite, but he is a consistent A or A- lvl mid (depending what you list as A Grade). He should'nt be your number one, but he would slot into any team as your 3rd or 4th best mid: i would put him in a similar range to a James Kelly or Cam Ling at the cats, or a mid-career Jordan Lewis at the Hawks (before he really broke out 2 or 3 years ago).

 

[loki04]

You can accumulate 5% , which you have to spend the next year. You can't accumulate the salaries of Swan, Cloke, Brown, Witt's etc and spend it the next year. We either had to get in players like Wells or Mayne or front load the hell out of existing players just to get to the 95% after we lost Swan, Toovey, Cloke, brown etc. You are arguing some stupid semantics and detail which has nothing to do with my the point of the post I made to the other guy. You then ran your fantasy numbers and came up with us having a cap space of $2.6m and said that was a lot more than the %350k guestimate I made based on a possible 5% underspend....well derrrr. I clearly wasn't talking about our projected cap space next year and incorporating new cap allowances was I. The Fyfe and Martin comment wasn't sarcasm or having a go at you either...Comprede?

They aren't fantasy numbers they are facts of what the cap is and what the amounts are available to a club if it chose to take that route.

The only fantasy number is your 350k from a 10+ mil TPP from 5%, which is just wrong anyway you spin it.

You also stated you cant save it and then spend it, I clearly showed you how they can/do in fact save one year to then spend UP the next. Which is what the projected numbers were about.

Gave you examples of current cap and future cap, the argument we have to bring in role players to fill our cap instead of adjusting current players contracts to make 95% is flawed.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

That miss just before 3/4 time was massive. Went down the other end and Brown kicks one from 50 on a tight angle.
In a low scoring arm wrestle, we will never know what may have been if Tarrant kicks straight from 25 out.

That in a nut shell.

 

[doodles98]

They aren't fantasy numbers they are facts of what the cap is and what the amounts are available to a club if it chose to take that route.

The only fantasy number is your 350k from a 10+ mil TPP from 5%, which is just wrong anyway you spin it.

You also stated you cant save it and then spend it, I clearly showed you how they can/do in fact save one year to then spend UP the next. Which is what the projected numbers were about.

Gave you examples of current cap and future cap, the argument we have to bring in role players to fill our cap instead of adjusting current players contracts to make 95% is flawed.

You jumped into something and argued as if I was saying something I'm clearly wasn't. I've pointed it out to you but you are continuing and now you're just being dishonest and a bit embarrassing. You have not shown me how the club could have saved cap space above the 5% and then spent it the next year. The whole system is explicitly designed a to STOP clubs from doing this. Youve included a one off proposed veterans $400k, and then the increase in cap space.. and that is supposed to "show me" how clubs can "save" and then spend the salaries of guys like Cloke, Swan etc from one year to the next. New caps space and the veterans allowance in now way equate to this and surely you must know that.
If you wanted to say we should have front loaded existing contracts rather than get Wells and Mayne.. then you should have just said that.. not made up a strange straw man argument.

But actually, what you have done for me is highlight exactly why we had no problem bringing these 2 in on big salaries.... We know we still have projected NEW cap space to land a big fish next year, even with Wells and mayne on the books. So it was a choice between bringing in two best 22 experienced free agents and strengthening the list (potentially significantly in the case of Wells) . Or not doing that, instead taking very 2 late draftees or recycled players, and front loading contacts. I know what I prefer.

 

[soreplums]

Interesting to see how many other clubs are paying 95% in 2017. Makes the 105% to be paid in 2018 quite significant.
Perhaps Gubby's plan was visionary? Pendlebury, Sidebottom are already signed up to post 2020, Levi, pay 95% knowing the cap will increase significantly in 2018, replace salaries of Blair, Goldsack, Sinclair at the end of 2017 with draftees, front load veterens in Mayne and Wells with Levi into his last year of contract in 2018 opens up more cash in 2018/2019.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Elite - Grundy, Moore
A grade - De Goey, Scharenberg, Adams, WHE,
B grade - Aish, Brown, Daicos, Broomhead,

Moore is not elite based on his body of work thus far. B grade is a fair grade. Ditto Degoey. Scharenberg as an a grade is a joke. He has shown nothing like Brown and Daicos.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Moore is not elite based on his body of work thus far. B grade is a fair grade. Ditto Degoey. Scharenberg as an a grade is a joke. He has shown nothing like Brown and Daicos.

Agree on your gradings thus far.
De Goey in my view will move to A grade plus, same as Moore. But not there yet, I'd have De Goey going getter than Moore thus far. But both should go far. Should.

Scharenberg I see as going to a Clement level in time (if he stays clear of injury ofcourse)

Our only elites are Pendlebury, Treloar and just on that level Grundy.
If Wells was healthy he'd be elite to A grade.

 

[Knightmare]

So we bought these two players on high coin according to Tim Watson and he's asking the question why we bought these two partically when there is a huge gap in the forward line for a key tall. Discuss. Is Watson correct?

They're fine and suitable list additions. Just not at the price paid.

As for our key forward needs, last offseason wasn't the correct offseason.

In years past there have been the James Podsiadly and Jarrad Waite types with more in the tank. Travis Cloke was that guy last year with more and being underrated, but he's gone now.

2014 was the offseason to load up on key forwards with Wright available at 5, Moore. Reece McKenzie I liked late as a third key forward but for reasons beyond AFL he was unable to make it.

On this years draft I have some good news. It's a draft stacked with key forwards (and ruckmen). Not good for much else. But in terms of long term build. This year is the year if we have a pick or two inside the first round. And being a relatively (in my view) weaker draft, I'd expect some clubs to shop those picks.