List Mgmt. Collingwood Academy Kids

loki04

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 29, 2005
22,262
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I don't understand why indigenous players should be included in next generation academies.

Indigenous players have played and had pathways into the VFL/AFL for many decades now.

North Melbourne got priority access to very talented Thomas and he was drafted out of Tasmania.

Not like he was playing in some remote indigenous community and the North recruiters happened to stumble upon him was it?

I just don't get it, it's bound to be exploited by AFL clubs while some like West Coast and Fremantle seem to be better placed to benefit from it.
Should be limited to remote indigenous communities and tiwi islands.

Suburban and even rural indigenous have all the same pathways and opportunity as non indigenous.
 

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loki04

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 29, 2005
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There’ll be a few reasons ...

(1) It’s a significant battlefront in the war between the sporting codes. It’s inevitable that Indigenous culture will become a much stronger part of Australian national identity. Conquering societies start by subjugating the indigenous population but then they eventually embrace it and absorb it as part of a unified identity. By the AFL investing heavily in indigenous development programs, they’re hitching a ride on the back of indigenous reconciliation in a push to make the AFL Australia’s national sport.

(3) Eventhough indigenous folks have greater representation in AFL than they do in greater society (If AFL followed society there’d be around 17 players competition-wide who would identify as indigenous, and there’d be a lot more than that) it’d be generally accepted that indigenous communities wouldn’t enjoy the same opportunities to become elite AFL footballers as non-indigenous communities do. If the AFL wants to have the very best players and athletes then it makes sense to invest in indigenous communities to ensure that those with the most talent are given the opportunity to realise their potential.
1) Can you give examples of this? Because the nearest country similar to ours suggests otherwise. America. The natives pretty much live in their own identity bubble with reservations with native laws on said land with their identity of native American and symbols separate from the national identity of USA, US flag and Symbol.
Australia is very much following a similar path with indigenous push for treaty and separation of law, land, monetary reparations and government control.
I agree there will be more cultural acceptance and celebration but not so much a change of identity.

3. You really need to qualify the below statement :

"it’d be generally accepted that indigenous communities wouldn’t enjoy the same opportunities to become elite AFL footballers as non-indigenous communities do."

It depends on which communities. Remote communities is where your statement is correct.
Rural or Suburban communities enjoy all the same opportunities non indigenous do.
 

Scodog10

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Jul 25, 2008
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1) Can you give examples of this? Because the nearest country similar to ours suggests otherwise. America. The natives pretty much live in their own identity bubble with reservations with native laws on said land with their identity of native American and symbols separate from the national identity of USA, US flag and Symbol.
Australia is very much following a similar path with indigenous push for treaty and separation of law, land, monetary reparations and government control.
I agree there will be more cultural acceptance and celebration but not so much a change of identity.

3. You really need to qualify the below statement :

"it’d be generally accepted that indigenous communities wouldn’t enjoy the same opportunities to become elite AFL footballers as non-indigenous communities do."

It depends on which communities. Remote communities is where your statement is correct.
Rural or Suburban communities enjoy all the same opportunities non indigenous do.
I like it as is. If there’s one kid a year who’s marginal about being drafted, but the time he spends in the NGA pathway nudges him over the line it’s better for everyone because it grows the talent pool. As long as these kids continue to be available to everyone in a nominal way the system works!

I like the idea of a pure draft, but I’m not sure you can align kids for 4-5 years and then say to them the draft dictates your path from here. If we took that path I’d rather we proceed down the path of soccer youth systems where any kid is available to any club as an academy prospect from 12 onwards, but they all go into the draft once eligible.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
6,486
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Who cares about an even competition, I just want the Pies to win every year
I'd like to see Collingwood win every year as well, but I love the fact the competition is now probably more even and unpredictable than it's ever been. It's in phenomenal shape thanks to the "system", and every club now has a real chance at being successful on-field and surviving/thriving off-field.

Go back to the mid-80's and see how things were before the draft and salary cap came in and turned things around. It was an awful competition, just like in big-time soccer it was dominated by a few rich powerful clubs (Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn) who snapped up the best players and won all the flags. The rest of the clubs couldn't keep up on-field, and many of them (including Collingwood) struggled to survive off-field. It's a better competition now.
 

manicpie

Senior List
Jul 19, 2019
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I'd like to see Collingwood win every year as well, but I love the fact the competition is now probably more even and unpredictable than it's ever been. It's in phenomenal shape thanks to the "system", and every club now has a real chance at being successful on-field and surviving/thriving off-field.

Go back to the mid-80's and see how things were before the draft and salary cap came in and turned things around. It was an awful competition, just like in big-time soccer it was dominated by a few rich powerful clubs (Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn) who snapped up the best players and won all the flags. The rest of the clubs couldn't keep up on-field, and many of them (including Collingwood) struggled to survive off-field. It's a better competition now.
Yeah just mucking around, but one thing i will say is that those 3 clubs were notorius for under the table cash payments to players which is something that wouldn't happen today, I think
 

35Daicos

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Yeah just mucking around, but one thing i will say is that those 3 clubs were notorius for under the table cash payments to players which is something that wouldn't happen today, I think
Unfortunately we got "dudded" when country zoning came in back at the end of 1967 (I think it was). Hawthorn was the opposite, transformed from battler to powerhouse within a few years! We weren't winning much at all by the mid-80's!

I do like today's system, even though it's not perfect, and think the idea of "partial zones" with the Academies adds something to the game.
 

sr36

Cancelled
Aug 20, 2009
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Unfortunately we got "dudded" when country zoning came in back at the end of 1967 (I think it was). Hawthorn was the opposite, transformed from battler to powerhouse within a few years! We weren't winning much at all by the mid-80's!

I do like today's system, even though it's not perfect, and think the idea of "partial zones" with the Academies adds something to the game.
The Hawks struck gold with their zone.
 

76woodenspooners

Premium Platinum
Jun 4, 2011
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Sydney
AFL Club
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1) Can you give examples of this?
New Zealand
Romano Brits
Angles
Saxons
Normans
Peru

3. You really need to qualify the below statement :

"it’d be generally accepted that indigenous communities wouldn’t enjoy the same opportunities to become elite AFL footballers as non-indigenous communities do."

It depends on which communities. Remote communities is where your statement is correct.
Rural or Suburban communities enjoy all the same opportunities non indigenous do.
That can be a very touchy subject (see subject of reparations) but yeah, agree that remote communities are more disadvantaged.
 

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loki04

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 29, 2005
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Romano Brits
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That can be a very touchy subject (see subject of reparations) but yeah, agree that remote communities are more disadvantaged.
Systemic poverty is what you are alluding to?

Maybe you should open up the fact it is a not only an indigenous issue and all races in Australia have subsections of poor people stuck in cycles of poverty and abuse.
This isn't an indigenous only issue other non indigenous from similar backgrounds have the same issues to overcome but not anywhere near the support offered or funding.

Ps New Zealand were never fully conquered. They came to mutual cease fire after both sides suffered losses over multiple wars. Colonial forces pushed them back but never dominated them.
 

76woodenspooners

Premium Platinum
Jun 4, 2011
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Systemic poverty is what you are alluding to?
No. I was alluding to there being indigenous elders who would claim that their inner city communities remain disadvantaged compared to their non-indigenous neighbours.

Maybe you should open up the fact it is a not only an indigenous issue and all races in Australia have subsections of poor people stuck in cycles of poverty and abuse.
This isn't an indigenous only issue other non indigenous from similar backgrounds have the same issues to overcome but not anywhere near the support offered or funding.
I’m not advocating a position one way or the other. My comments were just offering an explanation for the AFL’s behaviour.

Ps New Zealand were never fully conquered. They came to mutual cease fire after both sides suffered losses over multiple wars. Colonial forces pushed them back but never dominated them.
Every society has their own unique circumstances ...

... but what is common is the quest for identity. Who are we as a people? New Zealander’s following of the Hakka / Knowledge of Maori language / wearing of Maori jewellery has a lot more to do with the quest for identity rather than the particular circumstances of their foundation.
 

loki04

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 29, 2005
22,262
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Adelaide
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No. I was alluding to there being indigenous elders who would claim that their inner city communities remain disadvantaged compared to their non-indigenous neighbours.



I’m not advocating a position one way or the other. My comments were just offering an explanation for the AFL’s behaviour.



Every society has their own unique circumstances ...

... but what is common is the quest for identity. Who are we as a people? New Zealander’s following of the Hakka / Knowledge of Maori language / wearing of Maori jewellery has a lot more to do with the quest for identity rather than the particular circumstances of their foundation.
Our country's much more inline with USA western identity then New Zealands Islander identity. Probably due to population % and ingrained way of life for a few hundred years.
 

sr36

Cancelled
Aug 20, 2009
12,571
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3. You really need to qualify the below statement :

"it’d be generally accepted that indigenous communities wouldn’t enjoy the same opportunities to become elite AFL footballers as non-indigenous communities do."

It depends on which communities. Remote communities is where your statement is correct.
Rural or Suburban communities enjoy all the same opportunities non indigenous do.
I daresay the high percentage of APS players drafted suggests that financial advantages also play a part.
 

Kappa

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 7, 2014
16,177
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I daresay the high percentage of APS players drafted suggests that financial advantages also play a part.
They play for APS because they got sporting scholarships, not because their families are alwsys rich.

Big private schools love getting In future sporting stars, they hark about it for the next 30 years.
 

sr36

Cancelled
Aug 20, 2009
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They play for APS because they got sporting scholarships, not because their families are alwsys rich.

Big private schools love getting In future sporting stars, they hark about it for the next 30 years.
I know, but playing for APS is probably really good for their development. I know Cyril did, but how many other indigenous kids have received these scholarships?
 

Kappa

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 7, 2014
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I know, but playing for APS is probably really good for their development. I know Cyril did, but how many other indigenous kids have received these scholarships?
Elijah Edwards had one I think, he was one of our Academy kids.

I don't think many indigenous kids would be too keen on moving to the other side of the country for school. Victoria has a very small Indigenous population.
 

loki04

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 29, 2005
22,262
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I daresay the high percentage of APS players drafted suggests that financial advantages also play a part.
Oh you mean like this

2017, Scotch College had 38 Indigenous students from all over Western Australia with 22 being part of the AIEF programme. With the increase of students in 2017, our support team is of great importance to ensure the success of each boy. At Scotch College we ensure that our Tutoring and Mentoring Programmes meet all Indigenous students’ needs. All boys meet weekly as a group, as well as individually fortnightly with the support team. Senior boys also have individual tutoring once and week and all boys have small group tutoring during prep in the evenings twice a week. Students also have access to the extra tutoring through the Academic Support Team at the school.
http://www.aief.com.au/scholarships/school/detail.php?id=1122r

Or this one,

The Rio Tinto Flying Boomerangs is a football development and leadership program. The participants are the best rising Indigenous talent in the nation and are given the opportunity to represent their country. Twenty-five of the most talented Indigenous players are selected from the Kickstart Championships to participate in two residential camps. The participants are exposed to elite training environments and standards to assist their transition into the mainstream talent pathway. A core component of the program is to also strengthen their cultural identity.

 

sr36

Cancelled
Aug 20, 2009
12,571
16,464
Vietnam
AFL Club
Collingwood
Oh you mean like this

2017, Scotch College had 38 Indigenous students from all over Western Australia with 22 being part of the AIEF programme. With the increase of students in 2017, our support team is of great importance to ensure the success of each boy. At Scotch College we ensure that our Tutoring and Mentoring Programmes meet all Indigenous students’ needs. All boys meet weekly as a group, as well as individually fortnightly with the support team. Senior boys also have individual tutoring once and week and all boys have small group tutoring during prep in the evenings twice a week. Students also have access to the extra tutoring through the Academic Support Team at the school.
http://www.aief.com.au/scholarships/school/detail.php?id=1122r

Or this one,

The Rio Tinto Flying Boomerangs is a football development and leadership program. The participants are the best rising Indigenous talent in the nation and are given the opportunity to represent their country. Twenty-five of the most talented Indigenous players are selected from the Kickstart Championships to participate in two residential camps. The participants are exposed to elite training environments and standards to assist their transition into the mainstream talent pathway. A core component of the program is to also strengthen their cultural identity.

Well. I stand corrected. I had no idea. That's great.
 

jackcass

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 8, 2007
17,768
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Bendigo
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I know, but playing for APS is probably really good for their development. I know Cyril did, but how many other indigenous kids have received these scholarships?
Quite a few kids from isolated indigenous communities attend private boarding schools, those in Queensland being particularly prominent.

EDIT: What Loki said....
 

Pragmatic Shill

Premiership Player
Jul 2, 2017
3,484
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Pretty sure Bailey Wraith qualifies again this year as an NGA prospect but I have been told the club hit him right between the eyes in saying they didn't see much room for growth in his development.

I know a bloke named Thariel Ter is in our NGA and is eligible this year I think but haven't heard amazing things.

Remains to be seen whether the current form of the NGA will be around by the time Youseph Dib is eligible.
 

Knightmare

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Sep 22, 2010
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Pretty sure Bailey Wraith qualifies again this year as an NGA prospect but I have been told the club hit him right between the eyes in saying they didn't see much room for growth in his development.

I know a bloke named Thariel Ter is in our NGA and is eligible this year I think but haven't heard amazing things.

Remains to be seen whether the current form of the NGA will be around by the time Youseph Dib is eligible.
I liked the look of Ter a couple of years ago. Don't think I've sighted him since. He's on Oakleigh's list. Hasn't played. Eligible next year.

Dib I'm not familiar with and haven't sighted. Not on Oakleigh's list. Will be younger.
 

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