Collingwood are anything but shoe-ins, are they in trouble?

[PhatBoy]

I know you're still agitated over me scrutinizing your club's youth in a different thread, but do try to calm down.

If they were any good, they would've seen more game-time this year, particularly with all the injuries Collingwood have had. Finlay Macrae is one of their younger players they have pinned a lot of hope on, but he's been largely disappointing this year. He will be one of two players remaining from a largely disastrous 2020 draft Collingwood chose to attack hard.

Oh yes I’m very agitated over a Tigers fan with a hawks and swans alt who has nothing better to do after watching his team win a wooden spoon trying to proselytise to the masses that a team noted for being in the top 8 for 18 of the last 21 seasons with this year’s rising star favourite and another nominee will somehow forget how to recruit and train its next generation of players

We all know that players who don’t have an incredible start to their career cannot hope to get better. We’ve seen it with Tom Hawkins, for example.

 

[beerbandit]

Did you forget about your club drafting the likes of Dale Thomas, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Beams, Ben Reid etc? Once upon a time they were your under-23s, and helped deliver a flag in 2010. A couple of them are still around, and helped win a flag in 2023. I think it's fair to say having a strong contingent of under-23s can go a long way for both short and long-term success.

Once upon a time Geelong's under-23s consisted of Bartel, Corey, Ablett, Kelly, Enright, Chapman, Johnson. Think it's safe to say that went a long way in establishing long-term sustained success.

A plethora of top talent in the 28-29 range? If that were the case, then perhaps Collingwood would've made top 8 this season. In this age bracket I see De Goey, Moore, Cameron and Maynard. I wouldn't call that a plethora, unless you want to sell us on the value of Oleg Markov and Billy Frampton.

Sure, Nick Daicos is a quality player, but just like Sheezel at North Melbourne, there is only so much he can do in a team with limited quality.

I know you're keen to play down the significance of an under-23 contingent, but when you have 11 players in their 30s in 2025, including some in their mid-30s, generally most clubs would want a sufficient quantity of good young players ready to take their spots. The 28-29 year olds aren't going to replace the likes of Pendlebury or Sidebottom because they're already in the team. This is precisely where the value of good under-23s lies.

It is silly to think having a lot of salary cap space will provision for the current shortage of young talent. There are plenty of clubs with a lot of cap space who are much better positioned to challenge for Premierships short & long term. It's extremely difficult to convince even one high quality player to join, let alone 6-8 Collingwood need to replace the old guys.

You are putting a lot of effort into this. I take my hat off to you for that, but that’s about it.

I’m glad you think the Pies have limited “ability”.

Maybe worry about the Swans doing what Pies and Cats have done in the last 2 seasons and that’s win a flag.

But I doubt Sydney will because they have far too many players under 23 who aren’t experienced enough.

 

[Jake98]

Oh yes I’m very agitated over a Tigers fan with a hawks and swans alt who has nothing better to do after watching his team win a wooden spoon trying to proselytise to the masses that a team noted for being in the top 8 for 18 of the last 21 seasons with this year’s rising star favourite and another nominee will somehow forget how to recruit and train its next generation of players

We all know that players who don’t have an incredible start to their career cannot hope to get better. We’ve seen it with Tom Hawkins, for example.

Tom Hawkins was a highly touted young key-forward from an early age, and everyone knows key-forwards take longer to get going. There's a very big difference between a player like Tom Hawkins and someone like Jakob Ryan or Harvey Harrison. Sounds to me like you don't understand much about football, which is why you're still persisting with this nonsense about me being a Richmond supporter. You are clearly still agitated.

 

[Jake98]

You are putting a lot of effort into this. I take my hat off to you for that, but that’s about it.

I’m glad you think the Pies have limited “ability”.

Maybe worry about the Swans doing what Pies and Cats have done in the last 2 seasons and that’s win a flag.

But I doubt Sydney will because they have far too many players under 23 who aren’t experienced enough.

Sydney just finished top of the ladder and we don't have a list heavily saturated with 30+ year olds. We'll be fine, and primed to contend for the next five years.

Collingwood are facing a long, difficult period. I'm hardly the only person with this view, and even your coach has signaled that the club's age demographic needs to be addressed. You have provided very little data to suggest otherwise. Nick Daicos alone cannot offset losing half your best 22 over the next 2-3 years.

 

[WillHayward]

Pies youth isn't great but Pies always manage to attract good mature talent.
Crisp, Hill, McStay, Mitchell, H-E, Howe, Cameron.

So I won't be surprised if they do it again this year.

 

[Jake98]

Pies youth isn't great but Pies always manage to attract good mature talent.
Crisp, Hill, McStay, Mitchell, H-E, Howe, Cameron.

Crisp was steak knives in the Dayne Beams trade and he didn't even want to leave at the time. Darcy Cameron was a recycled pickup from Sydney. Hardly "attracting" talent.

Collingwood have just missed the finals, and half their best 22 will be 30+ next year. Basic logic suggests it's nigh-impossible to replace that many players quickly enough in the short term to sustain premiership contention. They don't even have a first round pick to trade this year.

 

[Walshawk]

Pies have made a massive mistake topping up. They won a flag with brilliant coaching performance that galvanised a playing group better than we have ever seen before. But with an average and aging list, that is simply not sustainable. The longer they put off a rebuild, the longer their time down the bottom will be. They should be thinking medium/long term - ‘how do we win multiple flags in the next 10 years while we have N Daicos?’

 

[beerbandit]

Sydney just finished top of the ladder and we don't have a list heavily saturated with 30+ year olds. We'll be fine, and primed to contend for the next five years.

Collingwood are facing a long, difficult period. I'm hardly the only person with this view, and even your coach has signaled that the club's age demographic needs to be addressed. You have provided very little data to suggest otherwise. Nick Daicos alone cannot offset losing half your best 22 over the next 2-3 years.

And we won a premiership with this group.

So that is a to our recruiting staff and coaches.

 

[beerbandit]

Tom Hawkins was a highly touted young key-forward from an early age, and everyone knows key-forwards take longer to get going. There's a very big difference between a player like Tom Hawkins and someone like Jakob Ryan or Harvey Harrison. Sounds to me like you don't understand much about football, which is why you're still persisting with this nonsense about me being a Richmond supporter. You are clearly still agitated.

Harvey Harrison is a very promising youngster.

 

[Jake98]

And we won a premiership with this group.

So that is a to our recruiting staff and coaches.

The recruiting staff from 8-20 years ago, indeed.

 

[Jake98]

Harvey Harrison is a very promising youngster.

Promising? Sure.
Still not even 1/10th as valuable as Hawkins, and never will be.
There is quite a difference between serious high-end talent and the Harvey Harrisons/Jakob Ryan types.

 

[beerbandit]

The recruiting staff from 8-20 years ago, indeed

LOL, you realise it’s been the same bloke for about 20 years don’t you?

 

[Jake98]

LOL, you realise it’s been the same bloke for about 20 years don’t you?

The same one who traded the future first and second rounders (2021) and Treloar to top up on 2020 picks? For a return of Oliver Henry, Finlay Macrae, Reef McInnes, Caleb Poulter and Liam McMahon? Oof, might be starting to lose his touch.

 

[OniAu]

Rather get a flag one year , then the next be too old. Than be young for years on end and win no flags.

 

[PhatBoy]

The same one who traded the future first and second rounders (2021) and Treloar to top up on 2020 picks? For a return of Oliver Henry, Finlay Macrae, Reef McInnes, Caleb Poulter and Liam McMahon? Oof, might be starting to lose his touch.

The same one who traded for Bobby Hill as well

 

[Jake98]

Rather get a flag one year , then the next be too old. Than be young for years on end and win no flags.

Fair enough.

But where to from here? Keep stocking up on older players?

 

[beerbandit]

The same one who traded the future first and second rounders (2021) and Treloar to top up on 2020 picks? For a return of Oliver Henry, Finlay Macrae, Reef McInnes, Caleb Poulter and Liam McMahon? Oof, might be starting to lose his touch.

2 Flags in 14 years is a good go.

Only Hawthorn, Richmond & Geelong are the other clubs with multiple flags in this time.

Can’t say the same about the Swans though.

I think the club knows what they are doing. I’ll leave it up to them rather than continue to respond to somebody trying to wind people up.

 

[OniAu]

Fair enough.

But where to from here? Keep stocking up on older players?

I agree. We should be building around Naicos now. It will be an interesting off season in the next two years , as we should be focusing on the age bracket around Naicos for them to grow cohesion and continuity together.

I think our biggest let down, was letting Ginnivan walk to Hawks. Then bringing in Schultz for two first rounders essentially. We had a forward who was equivalent to Schultz and 4 to 5 years younger. Thats our biggest glaring trade mistake. Runs in line with our failed forking out of first rounders for years on end.

A flags the ultimate success. It would be a failure if Naicos doesnt achieve this again with the Pies

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Pies fans never seen to have a rebuttal other than 'we done it before, we do it again! When you question them on how they're going to rebound from where they're at list demographic wise.

They have almost 0 top tier young talent and a plethora of very very old vets who while still decent players, are continuing to decline slowly as they eek towards retirement.

Their list is Richmond's from a few years ago but without the Rioli, Bolton, Baker types they're about to cash in on to regenerate the list at the draft.

Pies are in for a world of hurt after the next 1-2 years

 

[Jake98]

2 Flags in 14 years is a good go.

Only Hawthorn, Richmond & Geelong are the other clubs with multiple flags in this time.

Can’t say the same about the Swans though.

If you're going to cherrypick arbitrary numbers I could just as easily say the Swans have won 2 flags in 19 years, basically the same thing. Why are you even bringing up my club? You do realize team trolling is against the rules? Although clearly that doesn't seem to matter with a couple of Geelong stalkers sh**ting up the thread.

I think the club knows what they are doing. I’ll leave it up to them rather than continue to respond to somebody trying to wind people up.

You think the club knew what they were doing in the 2020 off-season? I think you'll find Collingwood fans at the time had a very different view, and four years later, that off-season hasn't looked any better.

I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I am simply making a point and following it up with a question. If you're wound up about it, so be it.

 

[beerbandit]

If you're going to cherrypick arbitrary numbers I could just as easily say the Swans have won 2 flags in 19 years, basically the same thing. Why are you even bringing up my club? You do realize team trolling is against the rules? Although clearly that doesn't seem to matter with a couple of Geelong stalkers sh**ting up the thread.


You think the club knew what they were doing in the 2020 off-season? I think you'll find Collingwood fans at the time had a very different view, and four years later, that off-season hasn't looked any better.

I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I am simply making a point and following it up with a question. If you're wound up about it, so be it.

You said 8-20 years ago with our trade/drafting

I merely pointed out our 2 flags under our recruiters.

Don’t be so touchy. You brought it up, if you can’t handle a bit of backlash, then maybe don’t start stupid threads.

 

[OniAu]

Pies fans never seen to have a rebuttal other than 'we done it before, we do it again! When you question them on how they're going to rebound from where they're at list demographic wise.

They have almost 0 top tier young talent and a plethora of very very old vets who while still decent players, are continuing to decline slowly as they eek towards retirement.

Their list is Richmond's from a few years ago but without the Rioli, Bolton, Baker types they're about to cash in on to regenerate the list at the draft.

Pies are in for a world of hurt after the next 1-2 years

What are they cashing in on with those players? Wheres the assurance they are going to regenerate with those leaving

 

[Jake98]

You said 8-20 years ago with our trade/drafting

I merely pointed out our 2 flags under our recruiters.

Don’t be so touchy. You brought it up, if you can’t handle a bit of backlash, then maybe don’t start stupid threads.

Yes, your 2023 flag was driven primarily by players traded/drafted between 8 and 20 years ago.

I am "merely" pointing out that your club's 2020 off-season was a complete disaster and getting worse by the year, and that your current contingent of players aged 23 or under isn't great. Taking this into account, it is fair to suggest Collingwood's recruiters have lost some touch, particularly when drafting. Or what, do you think they're entitled to credit for matching a bid on Nick Daicos?

I'm not even remotely touchy. You felt the need to bring up Sydney in a thread that has nothing to do with Sydney. This tells me you need to attack my club to compensate against me scrutinizing Collingwood.

 

[Toump Ass]

What are they cashing in on with those players? Wheres the assurance they are going to regenerate with those leaving

There is none. If everything goes well they'll completely **** up their picks and be a laughing stock for decades.

Can't wait!

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

What are they cashing in on with those players? Wheres the assurance they are going to regenerate with those leaving

I think if you asked any club how they'd approach rebuilding, they'd rather have picks than have their future tied up in a fat forward pocket who misses every 2nd shot on goal he takes.

Richmond will hit the draft hard and give themselves a great chance of regenerating with youngsters, whether they succeed in doing so is really anyone's guess, but they've certainly got a better chance than the the Pies with no first round picks.