Collingwood v Carlton prospects 2022 onwards

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I have no skin in this one. Both mobs are enduring difficult times. Both have their Boards facing scrutiny, their Footy Depts excoriated and have lost coaches. The list management at both mobs has been questioned. The on field performances of both were ordinary.

Looking forward and with a little hindsight, I wonder how neutrals see how the two Clubs are preparing for success.

Even with a Board under threat, seems to me the Pies are well ahead. They seem to have run a decent process in appointing a very clever person in McCrae. Who knows what the true list management and Cap challenges they face? Still with the painful 2020 trade period and inevitable resignation of Buckley behind them they have clear air ahead.

The good old Blue Boyos, by contrast inspire little confidence. Their list management remains the how not to guide for the Comp. The wreck of the TeagueTrain was just awful to observe. Apparently* there were (are) splits on the Board about Lyon and hence some sort of Carlton version of a process needs to happen.

So yes I am curious what people think. Have at it.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Carlton has a better list for mine, especially down the spine.

Good run with injuries and they should make finals next year.

Collingwood does have some talent but the list isn't balanced. They need to remedy this before they will be a finals chance again.

 

[Baird]

Collingwood have a better core and better youth

Carlton's list will always be at least 75% plodders

 

[Ati Tude]

Collingwood for mine. At least they have a coach.

 

[Fadge]

Is this satire?

 

[Malifice]

Collingwood have a better core and better youth

Name the 3 Collingwood youth that made the AA squad for me please.

Weitering and McKay are 23 and Walsh (just turned 21) all made the 40 man squad, and the latter two made the final cut (as the youngest two members), with one of them winning the Coleman despite missing 4 games for the year.

 

[Baird]

Name the 3 Collingwood youth that made the AA squad for me please.

Weitering and McKay are 23 and Walsh (just turned 21) all made the 40 man squad, and the latter two made the final cut (as the youngest two members), with one of them winning the Coleman despite missing 4 games for the year.

6th year players aren't youth. Weitering and McKay are already in their prime

 

[conrad_437]

At this point you'd almost lean toward Collingwood. Carlton's list is seriously plagued by plodders. Better top-end talent but requires a serious turnover to actually make finals, let alone win one.

 

[Cudi]

Carlton have a better list to build around but the club at the moment seems in the shambles.

While the Pies were like that like last year but have a better history of being much more stable.

 

[Hippster]

Best combined players are:

De Goey, Pendles, Howe, Moore, Jones, Weitering, Walsh, Cripps, Mackay, DeKoning, Saad, C.Curnow.
If Carlton Get Cerra that’s a big boost.
Out of youngies, new Daicos will be great. Think Stocker, Kemp and Carroll will be very good.
Blues also have better depth with JSOS, Fisher, Martin, Williams, Dow.
Blues by a lot. Infact more I look at both lists gap is huge.

 

[Fadge]

Name the 3 Collingwood youth that made the AA squad for me please.

Weitering and McKay are 23 and Walsh (just turned 21) all made the 40 man squad, and the latter two made the final cut (as the youngest two members), with one of them winning the Coleman despite missing 4 games for the year.

When will you guys learn it actually takes a squad of 30 or so players to contend?

Hopefully never.

 

[Fadge]

Best combined players are:

De Goey, Pendles, Howe, Moore, Jones, Weitering, Walsh, Cripps, Mackay, DeKoning, Saad, C.Curnow.
If Carlton Get Cerra that’s a big boost.
Out of youngies, new Daicos will be great. Think Stocker, Kemp and Carroll will be very good.
Blues also have better depth with JSOS, Fisher, Martin, Williams, Dow.
Blues by a lot. Infact more I look at both lists gap is huge.

Includes Jones and Saad.

Leaves out Adams, Crisp and Maynard.

Also, if Cripps is included for Carlton, so too should Grundy for Collingwood.

 

[Malifice]

When will you guys learn it actually takes a squad of 30 or so players to contend?

Hopefully never.

Nothing to do with the post I quoted.

 

[Fadge]

Nothing to do with the post I quoted.

Really? Because my take on the thread topic is it is a question about team success, yet you post a comment about Carlton's top 3 players?

 

[Milanista28]

Carlton have more pieces no doubt, will be interesting comparing end of 2022, it will be obvious then.

 

[Falcon27]

Collingwood has a better coach

 

[Malifice]

6th year players aren't youth. Weitering and McKay are already in their prime

And will continue to be so for the next 7+ years.

The fact remains we have a 23 year old FB and Coleman medalist and 21 year old AA midfielder as our best players.

Your best players are probably still your oldest ones. Grundy, Moore, Sidebottem, De Goey etc are all 25-30+ and will almost certainly feature up the top of your BnF count.

 

[Malifice]

Really?

Yes really. I was responding to a post about how the Pies have 'better youth' than us.

You'd swap nearly everyone on your list aged 19-23 for Weitering, McKay and Walsh.

 

[Ambrosia]

Carlton clearly at this point. Things can change quickly though

 

[Rich01]

Carlton are ahead, but only because they announced their last rebuild back in 2015.

Collingwood had won a flag five years prior to that and three years after that were a kick away from another.

Collingwood will end up with the better coach though. Macrae will be seen as a masterstroke. Hopefully Carlton don’t end up with Scott who will see them middling for the rest of the decade.

 

[master bate]

Collingwood:
Coach - solid appointment but who knows
Head of footy - very good appointment
List/Recruiting - Hine has followed the classic arc of being great, then being given too much responsibility, missing a few drafts as every recruiter does, then getting refocused on what he does best and is still one of the best.
Fitness guy - Hmmmm

Carlton:
Coach - unknown
Head of footy - unsure job security
List/Recruiting - Austin and Agresta probably need more time to establish themselves
Fitness guy - came with big wraps but under pressure

Collingwood:
Core players: Pendles, Roughead, Howe, Sidebottom, Elliott, Adams, Crisp, Grundy, Moore, De Goey, Maynard, J Daicos, Quaynor
Young talent: McCreery, Henry, Macrae, Poulter, N. Daicos and possibly Ginnivan, Kelly, McInness etc

Carlton:
Core players: Jones, Docherty, Saad, Plowman, Williams, McGovern, Martin, Cripps, C. Curnow, Weitering, McKay, Fisher, Walsh
The great unknown: O'Brien, Dow, SPS
Young talent: TDK, Stocker, Kemp, Philp, Honey

Collingwood has a core that is 24-28, Carlton's are 21-25. Collingwood's group probably provide more experience and have better senior players above them too, Carlton's group is still emerging. Collingwood might have the better very young players if you can include Daicos and like their draft from last year.

Apart from that Carlton have a potential advantage in 2 areas.
1. If you trust a coach to get the best out of Williams, Martin, McGovern and freshen up Cripps then all of a sudden Carlton are deep with senior players in their primes. I don't see as much redeemable talent on the Pies list.

2. If you have a coach who can get the likes of Dow, SPS and O'Brien on track as well then you're really rolling. The Pies equivalents - Sier, the Brown's, Nathan Murphy

28

Nathan Murphy

Age

24

Ht

192cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

6.5

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

3star

MG

176.5

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.5

3star

K

6.5

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

4star

MG

176.5

3star

- I'm not so sure there's a lot to work with there either.

The Collingwood team can get back on track pretty quickly because their very best players are really good and they can find some depth, but the actually list probably needs time to swap in pieces and build back up.

Carlton has more potential for an Essendon like boom year where a new coach comes in and immediately moves some players around, gets good buy in from the players and has both immediate improvement and a clearer path.

 

[Kante07]

Carlton have significantly better KPPs and rely less on their older players than Collingwood do. We need to keep building the midfield but overall our list is in a better position.

 

[The 747]

Carlton's prospects are better - better players - but they are Carlton.

Pies look to be in for a world of hurt but they have the capacity to get themselves out of bad situations fairly quickly.

 

[WillHayward]

Both pretty different stages.

Blues in year 4 of another 5 year plan.

Pies played in a GF just 3 years ago.
Year 1 of a rebuild.

Pies seem to be better run overall .

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I have no skin in this one. Both mobs are enduring difficult times. Both have their Boards facing scrutiny, their Footy Depts excoriated and have lost coaches. The list management at both mobs has been questioned. The on field performances of both were ordinary.

Looking forward and with a little hindsight, I wonder how neutrals see how the two Clubs are preparing for success.

Even with a Board under threat, seems to me the Pies are well ahead. They seem to have run a decent process in appointing a very clever person in McCrae. Who knows what the true list management and Cap challenges they face? Still with the painful 2020 trade period and inevitable resignation of Buckley behind them they have clear air ahead.

The good old Blue Boyos, by contrast inspire little confidence. Their list management remains the how not to guide for the Comp. The wreck of the TeagueTrain was just awful to observe. Apparently* there were (are) splits on the Board about Lyon and hence some sort of Carlton version of a process needs to happen.

So yes I am curious what people think. Have at it.

Clearly Carlton are more advanced in terms of their drafting. Collingwood are still in the process of having older players finish up and haven't begun the task of serious drafting with early picks.

Who are Collingwood's best players under 25?